Steely Dan

He's old but still has a year in him or so. The biggest question is how did he get along with TO?

A friend of mine emailed me these; Beatles Tube video and lyrics A day in the life That is so cooooooolllll!! :ph34r:

In Bizzaro world, but then Manning would be the opposite of himself too and Polian would be a horrible GM. A lot would have to happen for Leaf to become a Pro-Bowler. JMO Have you been talking to the dude who said the same things about Losman?

Ok, go back and re-read your post. Water is not being poured on them. It's being poured on a piece of fabric that simulates the sensation of drowning so you proved my point. You don't know what waterboarding is even after writing about it yourself. Next, in the articles I posted the interrogator was getting a lot of good information without the technique. They then turned the interrogation over to a completely untrained interrogator. What info he got is only being reported by a group of the biggest liars in the last eight years. Cheyney could more than correct the held back release of those documents himself. Why doesn't he release the information himself? Do you really believe that Cheyney and the others would say that no good information was garnered through torture? Think about it Brad, study it. Also, I asked if any info garnered after four years was useful in your opinion. Next, our troops are given it to prepare them for being tortured by this method. They aren't waterboarded 183 times each to prepare them because that would be too torturous on our troops. Think about it Brad, study it. PUNCH! Once again somebody who has no clue about what waterboarding is tries to play it off as running through a sprinkler or showering. No, it's not. Normal, internationally legal, techniques were very successful before they brought in the dimwit who had zero experience in interrogation. The police were also able to thwart the terrorist plan by using, legal, wiretaps and good old shoe leather. They didn't have to torture a single soul to gain this information. You're right war is hideous. Our record of winning the wars is almost spotless.

That is haunting. Gotta love the heads!

Almost anything off the "Final Cut" by Pink Floyd is haunting.

I can't believe you wasted the time to actually type that.

I doubt that. Different players have to be motivated differently. Bill Parcells was a master of that psychological art. Perhaps Kollar just tried the same tactics on everyone. I agree, offseason should be a time of great expectations. Why some people are football watchers at all mystifies me. If it makes you so cynical and upset why not just walk away?

Yes, our war record is hideous. Why should I give a about the Romans? In case you haven't heard their world domination ended many, many years ago. No, there is more than one way to fight a war. Our enemies choose the barbaric way often. We have, until recently, been moral leaders in war and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions. It is harder to catch criminals when the police are forced to deal with the Constitution. I guess we should abolish the restrictions on the police because it would make catching criminals easier.

I believe in some outside and some inside practices. However, I believe the chance of injury is greater outside than inside. I also think some practice in the elements is necessary. Getting more practice in the winds of the stadium can only help, IMO. While they aren't likely to be the exact game day conditions it should provide more experience in outdoor stadium play that can be dicey in the Ralph during poor weather. If I were a player preparing to play in 85 degree weather in Miami in December I'd turn the heat up to the 80's in my place to ready my body for the heat, but that's just me.

Ok, I don't get this. Panty lines are, as far as I know, visible only through pants. If that's true then how is her beaver hanging out?

Thanks for telling me how I should react to an absolutely absurd analogy. To answer your analogy I wouldn't want anyone waterboarded because my family member would have a much better chance of dying if the captors found out their friends were being tortured. As for the memos I don't know whats in them, and neither do you. If they were so strong about preventing terrorism then why didn't Bush ask for them to release them now? Why isn't he asking the POTUS to release them? Ok, first I don't care who says it isn't torture. Years of war crime prosecutions say it is. Prosecutions we brought against our own enemies. Next, they aren't pouring water on them. They are waterboarding them. Look into the difference. Next, do you really believe that any valuable info. on Al Quaeda can be gotten four years after the attack? Next, The Bush administrations answer to keeping us safe was to piss off the terrorists even more and make their recruiting fairly simple. Great idea there George. Next, waterboarding is done on our own troops to prepare them for being tortured in that way. What's your point. Next, go back and read the articles I linked. A long time interrogator has testified that it was counter productive to getting information and that he was getting more info from his techniques than the torturers did. I'm sorry you don't have solid morals but I believe our country should. Thanks again for telling me what I'd do. Do you have any real information to add to this discussion or just stupid sarcastic statements and anti-American gibberish. I know, I know you'll think I'm anti-American but the fact is that your ideals are the same ones that have lowered the moral standing of this country, made it easy for Al Quaeda to recruit and you possess the sick mind that so many people of the world think we all have. JMO I wondered how long it would take for somebody to think we should start torturing Americans. So the number of people tortured is relevant to the fact we tortured anyone? Hey if you guys think torturing people is good for the country I can't change your minds. I'm not a Christian but for some of you Christianity might be a good idea.

TO is polarizing. If you hate him you want to hear about him and if you love him you want to hear about him. I think Jordan, TW and Gretzky are all almost universally respected. I don't think TO is. His popularity is for the same reason Howard Stern is popular. From "Private Parts" Researcher: The average radio listener listens for eighteen minutes. The average Howard Stern fan listens for - are you ready for this? - an hour and twenty minutes. Pig Vomit: How can that be? Researcher: Answer most commonly given? "I want to see what he'll say next." Pig Vomit: Okay, fine. But what about the people who hate Stern? Researcher: Good point. The average Stern hater listens for two and a half hours a day. Pig Vomit: But... if they hate him, why do they listen? Researcher: Most common answer? "I want to see what he'll say next."

Yeah, I think someone mentioned Stills. Good choice, IMO.

What you saw was called torture by the recipient and the guys doing it took a lot of precautions with him. I guess your morals are easily compromised. I try to stick harder to mine. Their egregious acts do not justify our stooping to the immoral act of torture. If you read the articles about what was gained by normal interrogation vs. what was gained by WB interrogation you'd find it wasn't much, if anything, with WB'ing. I firmly believe that any info brought out by WB'ing could be brought out using normal interrogation techniques. Those techniques have been effective for years going back to WWII and more. Our enemies were astonished at how well we treated them as prisoners in WWII and it was a huge help in mending the fences after the war. Becoming savages only encourages more savagery on the other side. BTW, as I'm typing this HLN is reporting a terror plot has been broken up by the FBI. No torture, no harm just good damn police work. Huh.

No way! A pat on the back is far more deserved.

I need a better picture to decide.

I've broken this up into little pieces for those who can't read a lot. I've heard these things elsewhere but this guy, who has been waterboarded as part of his training, explains it very well. It is torture and torture is savage. JMO As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it. PUNCH! That is one of the stupidest things I've read here. Show me where anyone believes that. It's the same M.O. with a lot of the waterboarding defenders. Take things to the extreme on the other side. Dib did it above and you're doing it here. I aplogize to Dib for not pointing out that his post is one of the dumbest I've ever read. If you stick to the issue of waterboarding then it's harder to defend. It's only easy to keep demonizing them in order to justify it. What they do to our guys should have no bearing on what we do to them. That's what being moral is. I want my country to be a moral leader, it seems you could care less about that. JMO _____________________________________________________________________________ Why don't we listen to what a professional interrogator has to say about the effectiveness of torture. Link Testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, Soufan said his team's non-threatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla. "We obtained a treasure trove of highly significant actionable intelligence," he said. But Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to "shut down," Soufan said. "These techniques, from an operational perspective, are slow, ineffective, unreliable, and harmful to our efforts to defeat al-Qaeda." Do you honestly believe that torturing Al Quaeda members has any positive effect on our war against them? IMO it makes it a lot easier for them to recruit and that hurts our cause a lot more than any "supposed" benefits. ______________________________________________________________ Link "From my experience — and I speak as someone who has personally interrogated many terrorists and elicited important actionable intelligence — I strongly believe that it is a mistake to use what has become known as the 'enhanced interrogation techniques,'" Soufan noted in his written statement. Such a position is "shared by many professional operatives, including the CIA officers who were present at the initial phases of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation." "I wish to do my part to ensure that we never again use these … techniques instead of the tried, tested, and successful ones — the ones that are also in sync with our values and moral character. Only by doing this will we defeat the terrorists as effectively and quickly as possible." ____________________________________________________________ His NYT Op-ed piece; We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives. There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process. ___________________________________________________________ Tom Ridge says it's torture; "There's just no doubt in my mind — under any set of rules — waterboarding is torture," Tom Ridge said Friday in an interview with the Associated Press. Ridge had offered the same opinion earlier in the day to members of the American Bar Association at a homeland security conference. "One of America's greatest strengths is the soft power of our value system and how we treat prisoners of war, and we don't torture," Ridge said in the interview. Ridge was secretary of the Homeland Security Department between 2003 and 2005. "And I believe, unlike others in the administration, that waterboarding was, is — and will always be — torture. That's a simple statement." _________________________________________________________________________ It's a war crime Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk. "Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said. It's less effective, it diminishes our ability to make the world believe we are moral leaders and it's been proven to be an actionable war crime. What else needs to be said? _______________________________________________________________ I can't believe I laughed at that. ____________________________________________________________ BTW, What's happening with Sean Hannity's offer to be waterboarded for charity. The lefties are ponying up a lot of cash to the charity for him to do it. If he does it there will be a HUGE amount of money for the families of the troops. Nobodies heard, as far as I know, about him setting up a time and place to be waterboarded or for that matter confirming he will actually do it. It's been almost a full month since the offer and not a peep out of him since. Methinks. Just like a lot of people who claim waterboarding isn't torture are too (another word for cat) to actually do it. Bill talkers with no guts to back the talk up. _________________________________________________ Good article by Christopher Hitchens who agreed to be waterboarded for a story; It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly: “Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body. Video of his waterboarding experience Christopher Hitchens can do it but Hannity is a (another word for cat). Olberman has offered $1,000 dollars for every second he lasts. I have a feeling Olberman won't be writing a check anytime soon because of Hannity.

Where has anyone here or anywhere said that. Find a post for me, otherwise quit making stupid comparisons. The question is whether, as a country, we should uphold higher moral standards or drop ourselves to a more savage level.

We all definitely have the right. It's just that some criticisms are more valid than others. What that means to different people is why we're here.

I'm guessing you feel that for more than just the Corner stuff.

Where you get the idea he was using the Jugs machine from "playing catch" is something I don't get. I interpret that as them throwing the ball to each other on the sideline with limited movements for Hardy. It could mean they were standing in one place tossing the ball back and forth to them lobbing the ball to each other and running to catch it. Either way it's not the Jugs machine. JMO Maybe JW will drop by and clarify that for us.

:thumbsup:

It'll be interesting to see if he can bring that to the regular season field. He might eventually turn out to be starter material. To give Owens his due for the day; Terrell Owens didn’t see as many passes come his way, but made two impressive looking plays. The veteran wideout looked like he was shot out of a cannon coming across the deep middle. He pulled in the pass from Edwards in stride and likely would have reached the end zone thereafter as he quickly outdistanced the defenders in pursuit. His prettiest catch came on a quick slant when he snared a pass behind out of the air showing his wide catch radius without breaking stride and turned upfield.

How he managed to finagle the contract extension he got is mystifying. What a coddled Jackass he is.