PBF81

LOL, you crack me up. It hasn't been just Oliver, none of Beane's draftees have done anything against those teams in the playoffs nor in the playoffs in general. Since you missed it, the thread is about Oliver. His performance, or lack thereof, in the playoffs is what it is. You can spin it anyway you want it, it doesn't change a thing. Neither of our comments makes a difference either. He's fine if you're looking for a mid-grade DT. He's probably not worth the money he's going to get. We're missing defensive impact players in the playoffs, in a huge way.

Well, OK, perspectives apparently. I don't feel justified comparing a player at 20, 21, and 22 to one that played in his mid-20s. As to the differences, Fletcher also had much much more of an entire defense around him. Kelsay, Schobel, Pat Williams, Kyle Williams, Adams in front of him. In my book that makes an enormous difference. He also played in a 4-3 with A, two LBs beside him, not like Fletcher having to cover the entire backfield, and some of those LBs included Spikes, Crowell, and Posey. Put Edmonds on those teams and Fletcher on these and that's a huge part of the difference. We'll see, and we'll know if for no other reason he plays much better elsewhere. A lot of it is McD as well

Yeah, completely agree. Then again, what we think doesn't matter. LOL As we've seen, Beane says he's not doing much of note in Free Agency. To prevent the perceptions about him from plummeting, he'll need an A+ Draft. There's no precedent for that however. So I guess we'll see, but I'm not sure that there's much reason for hope. Von Miller was a high-risk/high-reward move that covered his drafting inadequacies, but which we realized the risks on. I personally don't think he'll play for us beyond next season and he won't be nearly the player he's been. But the failure of that move has hamstrung us even more than we would have been. I know that's obvious, just sayin'.

Who knows what's going on behind the scenes with the players, but they're all party-line during the season, then during the offseason it's all "business." We don't know what's contrived drama by the media and what isn't. But it's not a good look to have several players now, some of our bigger names, implying unfavorable things. Completely agree on the first part of your statement, but now we're getting into a discussion about McD. LOL I'm starting to think that Frasier left to actually enhance his chances of getting a head-coaching job, that he feels derailed by McD and wants to show that he was the master of the regular season Ds, presumably implying that McD took over in the playoffs. It's all speculation on my part, but the whole thing was strange and unprecedented. Unlike some have said, his contract had not expired.

He's also a fish out of water in our alignment, he knows that. All one has to do is watch VA Tech games with him to see that. Again, I think that after he leaves, once he's in a classic 4-3, we'll be talking about him next season just like talk about Teller and to a lesser extent Hodgins. Beane's dumpster-diving is catching up to him.

In the playoffs against KC in two games and Cinci, he's logged 3 TFL, 2 QB Hits, and a mere 1 sack. The Chiefs scored on the drive that he logged his sack on. Ironically, those are the highlights, and none of Beane's draft picks on our D has outperformed him in the playoffs, sadly. In 8 total playoff games he's logged 4 TFL, 5 QB Hits, and 2 Sacks. Oddly, to add some perspective, Basham, in his only four playoff games, has logged 2 TFL, 3 QB Hits, and 2 Sacks. on a per game basis that's the same number of TFLs, slightly more QB Hits, and double the sacks. As much as McBeane say that they're tried to create a team that can beat KC, and now presumably Cinci, they've done the exact opposite on D. It is what it is.

I'd trade Diggs for a 1st and 2nd. ... then again, what would Beane do with the picks, more Olivers and Cooks. Our problem has been in the playoffs, not the regular season. Diggs hasn't done much of anything in the playoffs, particularly against KC in two games or Cinci. He's averaged 4 catches for 40 yards and 0 TDs in those three games. More is expected of someone getting paid what he's getting paid. We seem to be entering the same phase that we were in after four Super Bowl losses, except on a lower level, and with the same expectation. Simply making the playoffs or going to the AFC CG isn't enough now. The expectation with Allen, in the limited number of unknown years he has left, and assuming he doesn't bolt after two more seasons, is a Championship. In order to do that we have to step up our playoff performances something fierce, especially against the primary challengers to preventing that. Diggs has not done that here. He's good for great numbers in the regular season, but come playoff time, quite the opposite. In our last 5 playoff games going back to our humiliation @KC in 2020, he's averaged about 4-1/2 catches for 59 yards and not a TD in any of 'em. He needs to do better, much better, come playoff time. Those numbers over a 17-game season are 1,000 yards.

I think that if you compare the first five seasons of each you'll see a different picture. Fletcher's best seasons by a wide margin were his seasons 6-10, his prime years. It's not fair to compare those to Edmund's pre-prime seasons. But to say that we've seen his ceiling when he isn't even in his prime yet is a bit premature, don't ya think. I mean Edmunds will only be 25 this season. Fletcher's best seasons were when he was 28-32. If you ask me, after he leaves we'll be talking about him like we do Teller. The team also doesn't use him entirely to his strengths. Watching him at VA Tech he was prolific. If he's in a similar role in the NFL he'll shine like Fletcher. Possibly better. The one area where he's already better than Fletcher is in his pass-coverage skills. His height helps with that.

Agreed, it's hardly an apples-to-apples comparison. Your post actually jars loose some thoughts. They initially tried to stock a 4-3, but Beane's approach to stocking the LBs is similar to his approach for stocking the OL. Dumpster-diving and 1-2 year signees. Having a third non-starting caliber LB in there was also a liability. I'm assuming that's why they stopped trying that and went with what they're now doing. What will get very interesting is if Edmunds leaves, a seeming certainty now, is who they bring on. If it's more dumpster-diving, good luck to us.

Good post, and I'd also l like to see him in a traditional alignment than in the monkey scheme that we have here because we can't get a third starting caliber LB on the roster after five years. This is going to be a very interesting offseason.

That would have to depend upon the rest of the defensive roster and the role expected. Right now Edmunds is arguably the better fit here due to his pass-coverage skills and lack of LBs after Milano. I also think that Edmunds will play better elsewhere alongside two other LBs than in the 2 LB alignment we have here, largely due to neglect in keeping enough LBs on the roster, starting caliber ones anyway. Fletcher's the overall better LB though. If we wanted Fletcher, we should have drafted Nakobe Dean instead of Cook, he's going to thrive this season in Philly.

I think that's very generous. IMO we're not even 10-7 w/o merely Allen. Take Allen off this team and put say Keenum in there and as I see it instead of 13-3 this season we'd have been no better than 8-8, probably a game or two worse than that even, rivaling our worst teams over that prior period. I mean honestly, without Allen what kind of offense do we have? LOL Honestly, if you compare our team to other teams during that playoff drought era, "the Last 20 Years," I think that the rosters we had most of those years apart from Allen were better. Put Allen on most of those teams and we make the playoffs a bunch of times, possibly even win won with the roster we had during Gailey's time. The OLs on almost all of those teams were better and can you recall when we had worse RBs? Our defenses were no worse, typically better. One year we had the DL of Schobel, Williams, and Kelsay. Hell, that's worlds better than what we have now. Fletcher, Spikes, and someone else decent at LB, and a very good secondary too. BTW, our issue isn't the regular season, it's the playoffs. Diggs hasn't played well in the last five playoff games. Miami, but Davis outplayed him. Diggs hasn't had a TD in the last 5 playoff games. When you're getting that kind of money a lot is expected. Out biggest players no-show in the playoffs. Here is Digg's last five playoff games, the big game was Miami this season. RecYardsTD 6 for 77, 0 TDs 3 for 60, 0 TDs 3 for 7, 0 TDs 7 for 114, 0 TDs 4 for 35, 0 TDs Everyone's all over Davis, but that's a total of 23 catches for 293 yards and 0 TDs in the last 5 playoff games. In our three biggest games, two against KC and the one against Cinci, Diggs had 13 catches for a 119 yards, 0 TDs of course. That's horrific for someone getting paid like he is. Davis on the other hand, a late 4th rounder that everyone's griping about, in those same five games had 18 for 389 and 6 TDs. In the three games against KC and Cinci he had 10 for 235, 4 TDs. Granted, most of that was in that one KC game, but the point is that Diggs isn't playing anywhere near to what's expected in the playoffs. Neither are any of our 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round draftees except for Allen. Take Diggs off too and I see us talking about who we're drafting with our 5th overall pick.

Yes, Allen. He's carrying the water for the entire team, particularly in the playoffs where the D goes on vacation. He overcomes our mediocre OL, competes to be our leading rusher, and even has to overcome our coaching decisions at times.

BTW, the number of all but useless and mostly overpriced players from Carolina brought here is hardly hyperbole.

Here's the thing, this is a bind that we're in because of prior drafting, or NOT prior drafting (OL), etc., and poor draft value in general. We may have to take an IOL that would be slated for the early 2nd then, because by the late 2nd they won't be around either, and we end up making the same argument. Then, using the same logic, we go all the way through days 1 & 2 w/o an OL pick. Beane's gotta come up with some IOL-men somewhere, and possibly even a RT. Where he gets them is his job and responsibility. The fact that we have such needs going into his 6th Draft, is on him. I have absolutely no idea why there's a single argument against that. I mean who else's fault is it. The one thing that we do know is that his approach to stocking the OL has been one of dumpster-diving as someone put it, signing a bunch of low-demand 1-2 year signees that has led us to where we are now, and which hasn't cut it. What he does is on him and he'll likely sink or swim on this Draft, not me saying that, but many in the national and regional media despite the fact that I agree. We drafted Cordy Glenn in 2012 nine picks into the 2nd Round, 41st overall. That's the only other OL-man besides Cyrus Kouandjio that we've drafted in round 2 since Wood and before McD showed up. I'll gladly take a Cordy Glenn with the 27th overall. We should be so lucky. And let's be honest here, for the handful of times that Beane's told us how one of his picks "should've gone higher," ... And in 2012 the left side of our line was Glenn OT, Levitre LG, and Wood C. Imagine had we started building a line three seasons ago.

Well, Beane's pretty big. wouldn't you say. The original argument there is that the best possible candidate for GM came from Carolina, and you can research their FO moves prior to that time, as I did before becoming unimpressed. On the coaching side, I have no idea, but Al Holcomb and Ken Dorsey are two, after that does it matter. I know that there have been others but those at the moment are the two biggest. It all flows downhill from them. How many of the other 18 really contribute to ... for example, "13 Seconds" tactics. (rhetorical) I was being partially facetious, I'm pretty sure you know that, but let's wait and see who else comes from there. That well must be close to dry by now. Also I'm pretty sure that the number of people in our organization that came from the Panthers, who've been anything but impressive since 2011 when McD began working there. .... 8 of 12 losing seasons, three times getting ousted early in the playoffs, ... at least McD's consistent in coaching his teams in the playoffs, and one loss in the Super Bowl in a season in which they posted the 6th scoring D on a relatively soft schedule of ranked offenses. Seems as if we got exactly what Carolina was, a team incapable of performing in the playoffs ... and that's with Allen at QB. It's hardly as if we went to KC after they won the SB twice to pilfer staff. It's the opposite. It's a sign of McD not being able to step out of his comfort zone. .... not good.

The jury seems to be out on who was really calling the defensive shots, could've been McD. Was too his top-5 D, maybe the perception of our D would be a little better if come playoff time it didn't play like a bottom-5 D. As to disrespect, right or wrong, it sort of comes with the territory. But if someone wants to pay me as much as he's gotten over that six year period and disrespect me, I'm good with it. Also, those are some huge If's.

We'll the joke's on us. Keep looking over that Carolina coaching staff and front office, that or serious OJT guys are the pattern here. I'm not sure we've ever seen anything like it to this extent.

Maybe that's what happened to this dude, ... kind of. Maybe he had a bit too much to drink, went into the wrong type of bar, got a "little disoriented," ... and well, now there's some confusion and he has an aversion to milk.

I know I am very interested in the thought processes of people however.

I think I partially did miss your intent. Also, I did take some liberties re: your "top-3" comment. I appreciate the back-n-forth. Your point seems to be defending McD & Beane. Am I off? As to your points, ... Kelly was a better passer simply because he knew how to take advantage of, and did, the high-percentage passing game, which is what propels all QBs to greatness in this league. Allen was much better at it last season, this season he took an injury and we're told by a "doctor" that his injury prevents him from doing that. So if true, is that his fault? But if anything, that is the shortcoming in his game and why there's any doubt that he may not be as good as Mahomes or Burrow as a passer. As to your comments on Elway, Young, Vick, and "today's game" vs. yesteryear's game, the difference to the QBs was not in how the pressure got to QBs generally speaking, it's been in what those defenders could/could-not do to the QB once they got past their respective OL counterparts. There's an important difference as it relates to what we're talking about here. IOW, the OL is still of paramount importance in the mix. Put Kelly on this team and he's running for his life like he, literally, never knew. The difference in our OLs today vs. '90-'93 is pronounced. The same can be said althought not as extremely, between today's OL of ours and pretty much any of our OLs since then. I mean is anyone really going to positively compare Ballard, Ritcher, Hull, and Woolford to Dawkins, Bates, Morse, Boettger, and Brown? Hardly. I would quickly add it's the same for the rosters otherwise also similarly. We've pretty much always had better RBs than we've had now. Knox is nothing special and comparable to past TEs. Some of our defenses, I pointed one out specifically the other day, were worlds better than then one we have now. There was above-average talent in most positions, not merely in a few spots. Kelly didn't have Allen's escapability either. He was far from immobile, but if he had to run for his life like Allen regularly does, no way he performs well like he did. Kelly also had massive support from a running game featuring Thurman, Davis, and several different bruiser FBs that could get the short yardage when necessary, something that this team doesn't have apart from Allen. Completely disagree on Vick BTW. Vick wasn't any better than Taylor. In the few seasons that both started, Taylor outplayed Vick in passing and didn't turn the ball over nearly as much either. A great exercise on this BTW, would be to put up the rosters throughout the years and compare them. I think it would clear things up considerably. I've already done that informally and keep saying to myself, that if Allen had even the OL of Wood, Levitre, and Glenn for example, better than any three we have now by a long shot. Some continuity as well which Allen has zero of. In fact, I'll do that for one year below for the OLs and defense. Anyway, if you're point was that without Allen we win only 6 or 7 games a season, I'm in full agreement with that. But at the same time, if we're comparing teams, to take say an average QB, and presumably we can agree that for example David Carr or Andy Dalton are pretty average QBs, if we were to replace Allen with Dalton or Carr, we still wouldn't win more than 6/7 games and we'd be in the AFCE basement. How would we win them? If however, KC or Cinci had to go with Carr or Dalton from Mahomes and Burrow, I still see them being competitive, despite not winning 14 or 12 games, I still see them winning 9, 10, or 11 games and making the playoffs. Cinci already did it with Dalton. Why? Because they're better coached than we are, plain and simple. That's the McD part of it. They also have more talent elsewhere on the team that steps up, particularly in the big playoff games. That's the Beane part of it. IMO McD has run his course, so has Beane. Could I be wrong? Of course. We'll see what this Draft brings, but given the results to date, the odds of one of our rookies stepping up to make a difference is nonexistent. It would be a first for Beane. As to McD, he won't have nearly to work with what he's had to date. White may be finished after his surgery, he certainly wasn't good when he returned this year. Poyer gone. Even drafting a WR at 27th isn't going to cut it. There hasn't been a WR drafted after 11th in either of the last two drafts that has put up starting #2 numbers or even close. Cinci's improving, KC's still KC, Miami and the Jets are breathing down our necks and each took one from us this past season. We can never rule NE out. Lawrence and Jax seem to be coming on and we couldn't beat them last time we played them when they sucked. But the elephant sitting in the kitchen sink is that come playoff time none of our players steps up. Diggs our moneyman has been terrible the past two seasons in the playoffs and hasn't had a playoff TD in our last five playoff games. Against Cinci and KC he posted a combined 7 grabs for 42 yards this and last season, and he's our money guy. Everyone's complaining about Davis, but at least he shows up come playoff time as our best overall WR in the last two season's playoffs. Singletary and Cook haven't done anything. Defensively we don't have anything even approaching a Bruce Smith, Aaron Schobel, or Kyle Williams. In his 8 total playoff games Oliver's had 2 total sacks and 4 TFL. That's ridiculous for a 9th overall pick. What does one even say about a secondary that permits nearly twice the passing yardage against Cinci than Baltimore did, and nearly a hundred yards more than KC with its 19th ranked yardage passing D and 32nd ranked TD passing D. Our rushing game is below average. Our OL is average on a good day. Our WRs clearly aren't cutting it. Our TE shows up a few times a season but that's it. There's not a single impact player on our DL that shows up regularly besides Poyer and Milano neither of which Beane drafted. Our LBs, ... LOL, that should be singular, not plural, our LB, Milano, is great, but then there's nothing if Edmunds leaves. Milano's not Beane's pick. As to our secondary, if the playoffs are the indication, there's not much positive to say. OK, so per above, let's compare rosters between this past season's and that of Mularkey's first of two seasons in Buffalo, and I'll swap QBs on the roster. Tell me what you'd have expected for both teams. Mularkey's team went 9-7 that season, led by Bledsoe, missing a Wild Card by a game to the Jets (Pennington) and Denver (Plummer), hardly household names in historical QBs. Last year's unit (13-3) here was our OL: LT: Dawkins LG: Saffold C : Morse G: Bates RT: Brown 2004 (9-7): LT: Jennings LG: Ross Tucker C : Teague RG: Villareal RT: Mike Williams Last season: DL: Rousseau, Oliver, Jones, Lawson LBs: Edmunds, Milano DBs: Poyer, Jackson, Hamlin, Johnson, and White 2004: DL: Kelsay, Adams, Williams, Schobel LBs: Posey, Fletcher, Spikes DBs: McGee, Clements, Milloy, Reese (backups: Wire, Vincent, Bledsoe, who couldn't move out of his own way, had 37 sacks. Allen had 33 last season, and you've agreed that it's easier for QBs now. So switch the two. How would each team have fared? The 2004 team lost four games by an average of 3 points. Just those four games alone would have put them at 13-3. If we could have taken one from NE too we'd have won the division against Brady. Bledsoe on last season's team would have been a disaster. Which roster would you rather have with Allen, last season's, or 2004's? That's an easy one for me. IMO with that defensive roster and OL & McGahee, if we couldn't have won a Super Bowl it will never happen. With Bledsoe on this team we'd have been lucky to win 6 games. BTW, our WRs then were Moulds & Evans, the latter whom as a rookie posted almost exactly what Davis did last season but with two more TDs. Well, what will be interesting is posing this same exact poll following this upcoming season and then if necessary after the 2024 season. Somehow I see that margin flipping decisively. The question then becomes, why are people satisfied now, but not then should that end up being the case. I mean same coach. Same "Process." Same excuses for giving him more [undefined] time, what, 5 years more, 10? What will have changed in the perceptions of McD or Beane if that happens? Will they both have gotten worse than they are now and have been, mysteriously? I suspect that the outcome at that time will depend upon whether or not we make a legitimate run at winning the AFC. But right now we can't play well against the top two challenging teams requiring monumental offensive efforts to overcome our defensive failures. We struggled, at home, against a QB that won't ever start in the NFL and nearly lost to a team with the most novice and inexperienced QBs in the playoffs. I wouldn't be surprised if we do not win the division this season. Suppose that happens, say one of the following happens: A. Win the division, but lose again in the WC or D round; B. Don't win the division and if we make the playoffs but lose in the WC or D rounds; C. Don't make the playoffs How do you think the poll responses will look then? I don't know, I'm seriously asking. All I can do is guess. But we've underachieved with a better roster than we'll have this coming season. If Milano, Dawkins, or Diggs gets hurt, do you see us winning many games? These are all rhetorical, but get to the point. Even if it's for injury to Allen, that would likely befall Beane anyway, for not protecting our multi-hundred million dollar investment.

Sure, all of our teams since the Kelly era you probably could have swapped out QBs arbitrarily and have had it made no more than a 1+/- game difference season to season. I'm pretty sure that you could have taken the QBs of the Jets or Fins and interchanged them over the past 20+ years and it also wouldn't have made the kind of difference that you reference. Here's the problem that I have with people using that line of reasoning in defense of Beane or McD, that put that same QB, Allen, on pretty much any of the teams of "The Last 20 Years," and you also have a playoff contender and perhaps even a division winner during the Brady era. I mean swap Bledsoe for Allen, and we're making the playoffs and winning playoff games. We had better overall WRs, RBs, OL and even defense back then. So if we're going to use that, then let's use it entirely for the entire time of the "Last 20 Years" then too. McBeane defenders won't allow that tho.

MUCH greater! Polian >>> Beane too. In fact, IMO Beane's among the less impressive of our GMs over the years, and that's saying something. Can you imagine Allen behind the OL of Ballard, Ritcher, Hull, and Woolford?! OMG ... I even threw out the OL of Wood, Levitre, Peters, and a few others the other day. I think that this is the worst OL we've had since the pre-Kelly days.

Way to completely disregard his 6 catch for 113 Yards (67%) and a TD in the Miami playoff game. Except for him, we lose. Diggs did nada. Using that logic, how about trading Diggs then too? He's been pretty useless in the playoffs, can't even find the end zone, worse than Davis whom you want to throw overboard. Except for his Miami game he's sucked in the playoffs this and last season Knox, same there. In eight playoff games he's been entirely insignificant in five of them, average at best in two more, and has posted only one notable playoff game, our rout of New England last year when Allen and the entire offense was on fire. Look, I'm no defender of Davis, but we're not going to do better for this year in the Draft. Also, we drafted a fine WR along with Davis, two rounds later, and didn't use him. So what gives us the confidence that they'd use a rookie WR, even if they did have the performance expectations you have as rookies, which they do not, that he'd even be used properly. My confidence in that is nil. Why shouldn't it be? The only decent receiver we had is one that Beane had to go out and buy and went out and paid top-dollar for because he can't draft. The team we traded him for got an extra day-3 pick in addition and a much better and far less expensive WR. I simply think that this cascade of criticism being heaped on Davis as the scapegoat for all but the entirety of Allen's and the offense's woes is way over the top, particularly considering the options. If you think differently, great, show us the receivers drafted after 11th overall in the past two drafts that performed to standards that will make us better this season? I think we're stuck. And either way, so OK, we expend our 27th overall on a WR. Great, now what do we do for the OL? LB? I know, I know, Beane will grab some guy late in round 2 that "should've gone in round 1." LOL If we each had $20 for every time a team made that statement that failed to be true, eh.

BTW, Levy immediately went downhill after Polian was fired. Everyone knows that the reason for our success back then had far more to do with Polian than with Levy. We went to one more Super Bowl on Polian's residual talent, a roster that he himself described as a special collection of players. After that fourth Super Bowl Levy only won the division once in the next and his last four years here. In that season we lost in the Divisional round. We posted only two of four winning seasons and went 1-3 in those playoffs. We got hammered by the O'Donnell-led Steelers and lost to the Brunnell-led Jags to end our playoffs those two seasons. Levy, after going 49-15 (.766) to bring us to the Super Bowl in those four regular seasons, then went 33-31 (.516) in the next and his last four. I'm expecting a similar although not quite as drastic trend here now. Beane is nowhere close to Polian in terms of drafting. We'll see how McD does this season. Beane's rookie classes have produced next to nothing in their rookie years. Beane has said that we're not doing anything significant in free agency and we have little room to do much there. So we're essentially taking this team into next season. Will the Jets and/or Fins improve? The Pats? Will Jones make a big leap in his third season like some other QBs and like Allen did? We don't know yet. In looking at our current roster defensively, if we had to take that into this regular season without Poyer, with White having played poorly upon his return thus far, with Edmunds gone and only Milano as a starting quality LB in there, with no proven pass-rushers on the DL w/o Von Miller in the lineup, and with Von Miller unlikely to ever return to anything close to what he was, I'm more than a little concerned. I can easily see us falling well into the average range defensively, McD's forte`. It's unwise to expect much from a rookie WR drafted where we'll have access. Singletary may be gone too, and he's our best all-around RB. We'll see how Cook pans out I suppose, but our use of RBs is suspect as well. Our offense won't be "as good" if our defense doesn't play as it has. One of the quite relevant things that I haven't seen anyone discuss here is turnovers. This past season with our #2 D we had 27 Takeaways to go with out 27 Giveaways. Last season and our #1 D, we had 30 Takeaways to pair with our 22 Giveaways. In the playoffs however, this past postseason we had only 2 Takeaways, both against Miami. None against Cinci. Last year, 2021, we also had 2 Takeaways, both against NE, all four of those were INTs against Thompson and Jones. The point, we rely heavily on turnovers/takeaways, but more importantly, the defensive pressure that accompanies them, which seems to be absent against the better teams (i.e., teams with average or better QBs unlike Thompson or Jones) in the playoffs.