Typical TBD Guy

1. I'm a Libertarian, not a Democrat. I could care less about Obama, the Clintons, or any Republicrat that wants to force government into our private lives. 2. I never said religious people must necessarily be bigots; all I stated was that bigoted people tend to resort to religious "logic" (i.e. "the Bible said it so it must be true" theorem) as a last desperate measure to support their bigotry when all other rational arguments fail. I'm fully aware of the many millions of "a la carte" religious folk who don't actually believe in every single irrational dogmatic point; they stick with religion for the sense of community, the volunteerism, the cultural heritage, etc... 3. "Face down in a puddle of piss?" LMAO thanks for the friendly heads up, tough guy.

Way to pick up on one obviously facetious comment of mine and continue to run this thread off track... . You can't reason with me because you can't comprehend the simple fact that most fans of pro sports teams like a team because of the city or region it chooses to represents. Not all (such as yourself). But most. It's really not a revolutionary concept we're dealing with here. They call them the BUFFALO BILLS, not simply the BILLS, and play in (or rather, very near to) the city of Buffalo so to appeal to most Bills fans like myself. You're entitled to like any team you want for any reason you want, but don't act so surprised when you find out that most of us don't want to have anything to do with the Bills if/when they leave WNY. It's called regional pride. And don't even dare act surprised when you previously mention wanting the Bills to relocate and find yourself getting bashed. Have some internet tact, you !@#$ing low IQ piece of **** troll.

Hurray for tyranny of the majority!

So by your specific definition of "real fans," the entire Cleveland Browns fanbase weren't acting like "real fans" by not continuing to support Modell's Baltimore Ravens? I would absolutely LOVE to see you post this argument on a Browns message board .

Most of us first chose to support the Bills because we support the city of Buffalo and WNY/upstate NY in general, not because of the stylish uniforms (what are you, a !@#$ing woman?!) or individual players (transients anyway in the era of free agency) or the 50-year history of on-field success ( ). If the city name preceding the team name had no relevance, why not just have a 32-team roaming circus that every so often rotates the NFL stadiums in which they play their "home" games? I personally won't support the LA Bills for the same reason I won't support LA anything....I don't give a flying !@#$ about that fake, flaky, pretentious, materialistic city. The NFL and the LA Bills would be like the NBA and the LA Clippers after the Braves moved....completely dead to me. Judging by the comments on this message board over the years, I represent the VAST majority of Bills fans. But you're different. You're apparently from LA, like LA, have no personal ties to the Buffalo area, and highly value the ability to conveniently attend your team's home games. Why not just become a fan of the LA Jaguars or LA Chargers or LA Rams or LA Raiders?

And there you have it, folks. Religion: the last refuge for bigots.

Getting back to the original topic, I fear that Los Angeles is only the first of what may be several more hurdles to follow. I believe we BUFFALO Bills fans are caught up in a cruel game of musical chairs. There are 7 other franchises believed to be in limbo (Jags, Rams, Chargers, Raiders, Saints, Vikings, 49ers) and 3 viable NFL cities still without a team (Los Angeles, Toronto, San Antonio). I seriously doubt the 49ers ever leave Northern California. And if Minneapolis loses the Vikings or St. Louis loses the Rams to Los Angeles, you've got to figure that it's only a matter of time before both cities get their act together and land an NFL team again a la Cleveland. That team could easily be our Bills once Ralph passes away. Also, Southern California is large enough to support 2 NFL teams, so a Chargers relocation to Los Angeles or elsewhere simply means that Los Angeles will then be looking for a second team. The Raiders, Jags, and Saints, however, are completely different stories. I doubt either Northern California, Jacksonville, or New Orleans ever get a (non-expansion) team back if or when those respective franchises pick up and leave. So these are essentially the 3 franchises we Bills fans unfortunately need to root for to relocate to the 3 cities of Los Angeles, Toronto, and San Antonio. The problem, though, is that we need Al Davis and Wayne Weaver and Tom Benson to make a move before Ralph Wilson dies. And so far that I've heard, none are yet willing to do that. Moreover, the NFL seems committed to keeping the Saints where they are due to post-Hurricane Katrina sympathy. If these 3 franchises don't relocate, our best bet then is to pray that Los Angeles/Toronto/San Antonio can't get their act together in enticing an NFL team, that Goodell and the NFL decide to block a Bills move due to fear of a Cleveland Browns style of backlash, or that talks of NFL expansion resume.

Are you kidding here?! Ralph is still THE problem with this franchise. Jauron doesn't belong in the NFL as a HC, but he nevertheless has become a fan scapegoat for a lot of ills outside his purview. I still need: 1. Modrak and Guy fired. 2. A proven HC brought in. 3. An actual GM appointed, with Brandon moved back to marketing. 4. The future of the Bills secured in BUFFALO. Until all 4 of the aforementioned issues get addressed, it's the same old hapless Bills bungling their way toward complete NFL irrelevance until a move to LA or Toronto.

I have no good explanation for this. I guess it's just plain hard to win in the NFL....'s least popular head coach poll.

Or Jack Hanson, Jeff Hanson, and Steve Hanson from the 1976 Charlestown Chiefs.

My preferred method would have been death by wood chipper. A slow feed into the machine, feet first, then a nice long dripping pause at the torso, followed by the removal of each arm, then removal of the eyes, and finally rotate the torso for a head first grand finale.

Nonsensical questions about nonsensical superstitions will generally get nonsensical responses.

Todd Johnson. I agree, this guy has got to be the one to go. 5 safeties is a lot, but 6 is insane even for a Jauron-coached team of undersized high motors.

Mods, please delete this thread before Bill from NYC sees this. For the sake of the poor man's health...

For me the worst was letting Pat Williams go after the 2004 season. I'll nominate a few others: trading a first rounder to the Pats for Bledsoe, trading up in the 2004 draft for Losman, drafting Whitner in 2006 instead of Cutler or Ngata, drafting a lazy RT over McKinnie, Butler's entire 2000 draft, I can go on and on with examples of this franchise's incompetence...

Early 70's to Seattle? Mid 90's to Los Angeles? Last year's passive aggressive threats at the Toronto press conference? Basically whenever a new stadium deal needs to be made (publicly funded, of course). Of course, this doesn't make old Ebenezer Wilson a particularly bad man; it's just business.

Proof of my allegations?! I'm just going by what Ralph Wilson himself has directly told the media about what's happening to the team while he's alive and after he passes. I don't give a flying !@#$ about your internet rumor. We've seen all kinds of internet rumors over the years: Siefert at the airport, Ralph being dead, Ralph moving team to Toronto while Golisano gets an expansion franchise in Buffalo, etc... And I'm the one blowing hot air? I don't have to prove your internet rumor is false; you're the one who has to substantiate the internet rumor claim.

You think someone like Golisano or a Kelly-backed ownership group would just pick up and leave after Ralph sells to them?

As far as I'm concerned, this piece of **** owner deserves all the boos our little lungs can deliver for the single reason that he refuses to secure the franchise's future in Buffalo.

I wonder if Bryan Scott could start at OLB in place of Ellison? Scott is 6'1" and 220 lb, which makes him huge by our current LB standards. That would allow us to move Whitner back to SS and keep Byrd at FS.

Well said. Ralph Wilson = Art Modell. That will be his posthumous legacy in Buffalo. A true pariah of WNY. Outside WNY, his only positive legacy will be his efforts in jumpstarting the AFL and in the AFL-NFL merger. His "champion for small markets" label will be long forgotten.

Paille was traded to Boston this week, so there's no longer an urgent need to move any current Sabre back down to Portland. Couple that with the fact that Myers has been our best D-man in a few games this year, and it's a safe bet that he permanently made the roster. Kennedy as well. Gerbe, Weber, etc... will get their NHL playing minutes when other Sabres inevitably get injured.

RALPH WILSON.

Why the does everyone here think Kelly is bluffing on his ownership group? Sorry, but I'm more inclined to believe Jim Kelly than anonymous internet douchebags who seem to enjoy starting new relocation rumors every year. I have no clue who Kelly's money men are, but it's not that unreasonable to suspect they exist. Jacobs and Rich from Buffalo, Golisano and Wegman from Rochester, Trump from NYC, Schumer's immense political clout, Warren Buffet who has business ties to our city...there may be a lot more lurking about. I suspect Kelly and his investor group are keeping silent simply because it's kind of rude to talk publicly about Ralph Wilson's imminent death, you know? The rest of this thread is nothing but overly pessimistic conjecturing. I guess 9+ years of no playoffs will do that to a fanbase... I admit that LA is a viable NFL market, but first they need to actually go about building a viable NFL stadium. And it will have to be built 100% with private money since California is broke. And Ed Roski has reportedly lost over a billion in net wealth since the recession hit, so who knows how willing he'll still be in funding this stadium when the time comes. And it won't be TWO teams LA gets since their population is too transient and blase about pro football (not to mention the perpetual "option" of having a second team move to LA is a great motivation tool for other NFL teams looking to extort new stadium deals from their respective cities). I suspect that Toronto, as well, is a viable NFL market. However, like LA, a new (and privately funded) stadium will first need to be built to accomodate modern NFL standards. There is also the issue of a strained CFL-NFL relationship, which could be the dealbreaker here. San Antonio? No. Its metro population is no bigger than that of WNY, the Alamodome is not suitable, they already have the Cowboys and Texans and Longhorns and high school football around them to keep them occupied, and the economic downturn has reduced any obvious advantage they could have over Buffalo. London and Mexico City? Travel logistics and uncertain fan support kill these two as options. Sacramento? Portland? Orlando? Las Vegas? All of these cities are basically a bunch of San Antonios, sans the enthusiasm for football or sports in general. So we're down to 2 legitimate threats, LA and Toronto, which may have ownership groups with enough money to afford the Bills plus the relocation fee plus the new stadium. Luckily for us Bills fans, I have 2 teams in my mind that are better suited for relocation: the Raiders (for LA) and the Jags (for Toronto). I suspect the NFL owners would block Buffalo's relocation (or any other team's relocation) to any other city not named LA or Toronto for the simple reason that the marginal potential increase in revenue doesn't justify ripping a loyal, 50-year-old fanbase that has proven it will show up to games if even a modicum of effort is put into fielding a winner. In summary, while it's very possible that the Bills relocate after Ralph dies, it's FAR from guaranteed that they will. Anyone suggesting otherwise is either a hopeless glass-half-empty type or a gullible tinfoil-hat-wearing type.

It's back up to 3% now! That's about 120 douchebags. EDIT, 2:58pm: Current status: 4,146 votes, 2% yes, 97% no, 1% missing (presumably due to rounding)