BillsFan4

Maybe they think tanking is a terrible way to build a new culture, get player buy in and develop their rookies, and keeping TT and Shady is a better way to get the respect of their new players and develop their new cuture. Maybe they think Tyrod deserves a shot to prove himself after playing pretty well in his first 2 seasons starting. Maybe they felt they don't need a top 3 pick to get their QB. Many teams have gotten their QB without a top 3 pick. The run game did alright last season without Sammy on the field. Having TT is going to help th run game as it did the last 2 seasons. Plus we have a very good run blocking O line. One of the best in the NFL. The run game should be fine. The pass game we will have to wait and see. I don't think this offense is predicated on a deep threat like Roman's was. I think It's more of a horizontal passing offense, not a vertical one. It's predicated on short passes and YAC. They want to possess the ball and run the clock. The worst possible return for Sammy? A 2nd and likely starting CB is definitely not the worst possible return, especially by NFL standards (especially considering they got a starting WR back in a separate but connected trade). The worst possible return would have been a comp 3rd round pick in 2019 IMO, after Sammy signs somewhere else in FA. Or worse yet no comp pick at all because the Bills can't afford not to sign free agents to help round out their roster. Look at what other good players have been traded for. A 2nd and a decent CB for an often injured WR is actually a pretty decent return. Now if Sammy didn't have the injury history he does, and had actually produced and out up numbers on the field, his value would have been higher. Now I'm not going to say that it doesn't hurt losing Sammy for a 2nd and a CB. It does. But worst possible return is a major over exaggeration. And his foot injury might be completely healed. But he's injured like 6 different body parts in his 3 years here. Let's just wait and see if he's able to stay healthy for a whole season, and even if he is able to stay healthy for 1 season out of 4, let's see how the next few years go. I know you've already decided this trade is terrible. But that's TBD yet.

I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it. Sounds like he truly isn't involved in football decisions anymore, which is a good thing IMO. Let the football guys runs things and let him do his marketing thing. I think it truly is a new day and age for this team! lol I could see that being true. I don't know if McDermott knew there were active trade discussions happening but I'm sure they at least had discussions about those players fitting the team long term. I can't imagine Beane trading those two if McDermott wanted them both here long term.

they were clearly not 1 Sammy Watkins away from the playoffs anyway. They have massive holes all over the roster with terrible depth and signing him for $15-$17+M per year greatly hurts their ability to field a complete team with depth, especially with some of the big salaries on the cap for the next couple/few years. It's kind of a waste with a run first team, and an elite WR isn't what wins championships anyway. They're nice to have, but nowhere near one of the key important pieces IMO. 6 picks in the first 3 rounds gives the Bills a chance at building an actual, complete team. Another draft or two and they might actually have some real depth too. Something the Bills haven't had in a long time. The best teams are built through the draft. Like it or not this was more than likely a transition year anyway. New GM, all new coaches, new schemes. When you change coaches and schemes, some players no longer fit. They will figure out which players those are and move on from them. Your timeline of 3 years is probably about right, even if we don't like it. But at least this team is being built properly through the draft for once instead of taking the bandaid approach.

Here's my opinion on what you said - First, a big reason why the Bills haven't kept their own talent is constant coaching changes, making good players no longer proper fits. So hopefully these new guys are here for more than a couple years and they can actually have a chance to build something properly. They are stockpiling draft picks to build the type of team they want. When is the last time the Bills did that? That's what Polian did in the '80's and that worked out pretty well. The Bills have tried the bandaid approach for years and years. Time for something new, and building through the draft is a long used and well proven method to build a winning team. Many/most of the best teams in the NFL were built through the draft. I don't know why you think Beane will trade away his picks just because he traded 2 players that they obviously felt were not long term fits. Doesn't seem like one has anything to do with the other... I agree building through the draft is a good concept, and that you need veterans to help them along. Which is why they have kept veteran players and not went into full tank mode. Sammy Watkins and Ron Darby were not really veteran players. They've been in the league 3 and 2 years, respectively. Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, Anquan Boldin, Tyrod Taylor, Richie Incognito, Lorenzo Alexander, Micah Hyde (etc) - those are veteran players, and most every one of them are very good about helping younger guys along. The Bills have put a focus on bringing in and keeping character guys like them. I'm sure a Beane does want to win now, but the most important thing is building a consistent winner for the long term. As far as a speed receiver - this is a horizontal passing west coast offense, built on short passes w/yards after the catch, possession of the ball/earring up clock. It's not Greg Roman's offense anymore. A deep threat is not as important. Zay Jones could end up being our deep threat anyway. Or even Matthews. Both ran almost identical 40 times to Watkins. Rod Streator ran a faster 40 time. IMO speed guys are pretty easy to find if they decide they need someone like that and don't have him on the team. How does trading Watkins really change the win/loss for this year anyway? The offense did alright without him on the field last year. It was the defense who struggled. They've improved their WR core over what they had last year though (especially compared to what they had without Watkins on the field last year). It's basically a totally different team from last year anyway. There are only like 30 players from last season left. So one Sammy Watkins isn't going to be the difference between winning and losing this year... It's going to be a combination of a lot of things.

Me too. I'm just hoping he's a good fit and produces on the field, likes it here and is then signed to an extension. He is definitely a perfect fit as far as the type of character guys McDermott wants. Let's hope the on field stuff works out well too.

I don't know. I guess I'm just not really that worried about a deep threat, and I think between some of the guys we have one of them will be able to run a go route when needed. This isn't the same Greg Doman style offense. It's not predicated on a deep threat like his was. The offense and run game seemed to do fine without Sammy last year, and I'd argue that our WR core is an upgrade over what we had last season (especially without Sammy on the field). So hopefully it'll be the same this year... It's likely a transition year anyway. The team is far from done being built.

Well said. Agree with pretty much all of this. I'm not so convinced that they will be trying to trade up for a QB like many others are. I think they're stockpiling picks to rebuild the entire team, not just go after a QB. If the right one is there in the 1st, I think they take him. Or make a trade up if the cost is low enough. Also agree about Whaley. His philiospoly seemed to be to acquire the most talented player he could (and he said as much, more than once). Having been a scout his whole career, Talent was the #1 priority for him. He didn't really seem to have a specific type of player or team building philosophy. He just wanted the most athletically talented player he could get. It gave the Bills some exciting players, but didn't ever really lead to enough wins for us. Beane and McDermott have a very clear plan. They want high character, selfless 100% team first guys. It does remind me a lot of Belichick TBH. Will it work? Time will tell. But it's been an long time since the Bills have truly been built through the draft. Seeing as that's how most of the best teams have been built, I'm all for it.

I just posted in another thread that Rod Streator ran a 4.37 (Sammy ran a 4.43 for reference) 40yd dash. Maybe they use him as the speedster if he makes the team? I think he was a Tracy and field guy too IIRC. Kinda like a Goodwin 2.0 that has hung onto the ball well (so far). lol I agree about Darby doing well under Jim Shorts (as long as 2016 was more of an anomaly). He will play more man coverage under JS, so that should help compared to McDermott's D scheme here. Matthews does seem like a great fit, too. Seems like a very high character totally team first McDermott type guy, and a nice fit for a WCO.

Sammy ran a 4.43 at the combine. Matthews ran a 4.46 and Zay Jones ran a 4.45. Doesn't seem like that huge of a difference to me, if they wanted to send Matthews or Jones on a go route. I believe Jones did alright as a deep threat in college when they asked him to, no? We don't really know how Dennison will use them yet. Rod Streator actually ran a 4.37 sec. 40yd dash. So maybe he can be the deep threat? I wonder how much Dennison will use the deep pass, though. Seems like maybe he plans on using shorter passes and YAC, playing a possession style game eating up clock. I guess we will see. If they do feel they need a true burner/deep threat I'm sure they'll try and find one between now and the start of the season. Shouldn't be all that hard to find a speed guy IMO.

They had to teach him how to hold a football properly last year, so no surprise there... lol Kid is as raw as can be.

Beane said during his press conference that he didn't tell McDermott about the trade until the night before they made it. He said he didn't want to distract them from their game preparation. Also said he waited until the trade was real before bringing it to him and Pegula. I'd imagine they had some discussions about Sammy maybe not fitting into their long term plan before hand, and I'd also imagine that Beane, McDermott and Pegula agreed to make this trade. But if Beane is to be believed, McDermott and co. didn't know about the actual trade until the night before.

Thanks for the apology. Appreciate it.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/08/12/jordan-matthews-eager-play-tyrod-taylor-keep-representing-2014-wr-draft-class/ "Tyrod's a great asset to the Bills," Matthews said. "To be able to play with him is going to be awesome because I already know what kind of person he is." "Tyrod works hard," Matthews said. "He was always the first guy in the building whenever we were training in Arizona" "He definitely has a savvy about him, and he understands people. He's not one of those guys who was modeled to be a quarterback but has no people skills. He knows how to lead a locker room. He knows how to talk to the receivers, the rest of the offense and get everybody pulling in the same direction." "And I also think he has a chip on his shoulder," Matthews said. "When you go through history, the best quarterbacks always have a chip on their shoulders." "I'm excited to see what he's going to do."

Trying to rationally look at why a trade was made is not pathetic. But again, continually calling your fellow Bills fans pathetic because they bring up something you don't agree with, well... it's not s good look to say it nicely. You attacked me yesterday and called me pathetic after a wrote what I felt was a well thought out and rational post. You didn't bother going into detail as to why you didn't agree. You just called me pathetic. And now I've seen you do the same thing to multiple other people. It's very likely that Sammy was gone after this year, whether you like it or not. Either because the organization didn't see him as a fit or didn't want to dish out a massive deal for him (remember he said he wanted to change the pay scale of the entire NFL) or because they didn't like the way he fit the team or his attitude or whatever other reasons there were. it's also very likely that the Bills didn't want to use up roughly 2/3rds of their currently available 2018 cap space to franchise tag an often injured receiver, who has yet to make it through a single season healthy. So you can say that they could have tagged him. But maybe they didn't want to use $15-$17M of their $26M in cap space on Sammy.

I highly doubt that Sammy and Darby were traded solely to go after a 2018 QB. I can almost guarantee that there was a lot more to it. Honestly, I don't think going after a 2018 QB was even one of the reasons Sammy & Darby were traded, and if it was it was way down on the list of reasons IMO.

You're right that nobody knows how many games he will play. But you continue to focus on only the foot injury. Here's a quick list of Watkin's injuries in his time with the Bills (as per ESPN) - http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/24712/add-broken-foot-to-sammy-watkins-growing-list-of-nfl-injuries Aug. 16, 2014: Watkins exited the Bills' second preseason game against the Pittsburgh Steelers with what the team called a rib contusion and did not return. Aug. 28, 2014: After missing the Bills' third preseason game, Watkins returned for the preseason finale but pulled himself out of the game after reinjuring his ribs. Months later, Watkins revealed that he was dealing not only with a rib contusion but with broken ribs. Sept. 14, 2014: Watkins scored his first NFL touchdown in a Week 2 win over the Miami Dolphins, part of an eight-catch, 117-yard performance. Watkins was checked out by trainers multiple times during the game and was hunched over on the sideline at one point. Oct. 8, 2014: Watkins was removed from the injury report after being listed for the first five weeks of the season with the rib ailment. Oct. 22, 2014: Watkins was added to the Bills' injury report with a groin injury but was a full participant in practice. Four days later, he gained a career-high 157 receiving yards in the Bills' win over the New York Jets and was named the NFL's offensive rookie of the month for October. Nov. 5, 2014: Watkins left the Bills' Wednesday session with a groin injury and did not practice for the rest of the week. However, he played in the Bills' Nov. 9 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs, catching four passes on 10 targets. Nov. 30, 2014: Watkins suffered a hip injury in the Bills' Week 13 win over the Cleveland Browns but returned to play the following Sunday in a loss to the Denver Broncos, catching seven passes for 127 yards. Dec. 10, 2014: Watkins was removed from the injury report and did not reappear on it for the final three weeks of the season. Early 2015 offseason: Watkins underwent surgery on his hip and sat out the vast majority of organized team activities as he rehabbed. July 31, 2015: Watkins participated fully when the Bills opened training camp at St. John Fisher College. Aug 6, 2015: Watkins didn't finish practice after getting "a little nicked up," as Rex Ryan put it, but Watkins said he was dealing with soreness from his offseason surgery. Aug. 17, 2015: After easing back into practice, Watkins exited a training camp practice again with what was called glute soreness. He sat out the final three preseason games for precautionary reasons. Sept. 9, 2015: Watkins was listed on the Bills' first injury report with a hamstring injury but was a full participant in practice. He was removed from the injury report by Week 2. Sept. 27, 2015: Watkins left the Bills' win over the Miami Dolphins with a calf injury and missed two games, against the New York Giants and Tennessee Titans. Oct. 18, 2015: Watkins fell awkwardly in the end zone while making a 22-yard touchdown catch late in the first half of a loss to the Cincinnati Bengals. Television cameras later showed him on crutches outside the locker room, and his sprained ankle kept him out of a crushing Bills loss to the Jacksonville Jaguars the next weekend in London. He's had injuries to like 6 different body parts in his 3 years with the Bills. It very well could have just been bad luck. But to say that there hasn't been a troubling and worrisome history of injuries would be false.

Beane and his front office staff weren't even here yet when the Bills decided not to pick up Sammy's option. So how does that factor into his ego? It wasn't even a decision he or his front office staff made, as they were all employees of other teams at the time. And before you say "McDermott", Beane already said he was the one who handled this entire trade. He said he only brought it to McDermott the night before, when it became real.

So it kind of sounds like you agree that it's silly that the Bills have these cap issues without even sniffing the playoffs then? And that it's also silly to pay all these guys tons of money before they've really done anything in the league (like Sammy) and put the Bills in cap jail again after just barely stating to dig out of it this offseason? Lol. I know this is not what you were saying, but that's kind of what I took from your post... There is no reason that the Bills should have been so up against the cap the last couple years under Rex/Whaley. They went on a spending spree Rex's first year and used up just about all the Bills available cap space IIRC. The Bills absolutely did have cap issues last season and entering this offseason, especially with the number of free agent players they had. That's part of the reason they had to cut good players and let other good players walk. IIRC they had like $19M to sign something like 26 free agents. It's part of the reason why they had to rely so heavily on bringing in cheap players and UDFA's. I'm sure they could have found a way to make Sammy's numbers work, but not without having to make more painful moves elsewhere across the roster, hurting the quality of multiple other positions across the team. Thing is, whether we like it or not, we are nowhere near a Sammy Watkins away from being a competitive playoff team. They have massive needs across most of the entire roster and not a ton of cap space to work with ATM. The cap is getting better because of moves made this offseason, though.

Now I'm not saying i love the trade or whatever but I'm willing to give it time and see what McD/Beane are able to build here. Here's what it ultimately boils down to for me - The Bills are my team. They will be no matter who the owner/coach/GM is. I have absolutely ZERO control over the moves they make. So I can choose to try and rationalize the moves, try and figure out what they were thinking and make sense of them to myself. Or I can freak out. Since I have zero control and I prefer not to freak out over something I can't control, I rationalize the moves and do my best to see the vision of the team and try to support it. I am the type that prefers to try and go with the flow. These things are going to happen whether I want them to or not and it doesn't matter if I like the moves. They happened. So I choose to try and look for the best of the situation. It has nothing to do with being beaten down by losing or any of that stuff you mentioned.

Isn't the franchise tag for Sammy next year roughly $15-$17M or am I wrong? If so, the Bills are projected to have $26M in cap space next year according to spotrac. Tagging Sammy leaves them $9 - $11M to fill out an entire roster. I don't see that as oodles of cap space or as having the ability to make Sammy the highest paid player in the NFL. Making him the highest paid player in the NFL would literally eat up that entire $26M leaving the Bills $0. From everything Watkins has said, I see zero reason to assume they could get him signed for $12M per year, either. He wants to change the entire pay structure of the NFL as per his words.

I agree. The offense didn't suffer. I just found it interesting that the players felt the offense opened up more without him (if indeed that is true). McDermott seems very very focused on building a true team, where guys are 100% all in and willing to do whatever it takes for the team to win. It just kind of made me wonder (along with some of the other things we fans have read/heard) on how well Sammy truly fit into the locker room. I have no idea though. Just something I wondered about.

I found Shady's quotes to be interesting. This one in particular - "Sammy's one of them guys where, he's been like a superstar his whole life," McCoy said. "He hasn't had a real older mentor that has done more than him that can really give him advice. It's one thing to take advice from older guys that he's probably better than or done more than. But a guy that can really talk about success on the field and off the field, and listen to ... that's something we've been developing even in my short period of time here" Maybe it's just me, but I kind of felt that McCoy was implying that Sammy never had any real interest in listening to or taking advise from any veteran players that were not as talented as he was. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but that's what I got from it.

I remember that too. I had been wanting to bring that up but I couldn't remember where I read it though. Yeah he said a number of Bills players felt the offense opened up more withOUT Sammy in the lineup. Like you said, who knows if it's true. But I could see it TBH. We know Sammy wanted the ball forced to him any time he had 1 on 1 coverage, since he literally said it to the press. I could especially see it being true while Doug Whaley was still here. I am not sure on this but I want to say that I even remember hearing something along those lines before (on Whaley & Sammy getting the ball).

Lol. Thanks. it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes... Yeah, I was tying to be nice. But I really didn't see all that much similarity.

Very good special teams guy, maybe decent depth CB. Hoping for the best. I fully expect the Bills to try and sign another CB or 2 before the season starts, especially if any guys with starter or backup potential hit the market during cuts to 53. It's really a shame the Bills don't still have Ross Cockrell... he'd have been a potential good fit, and very good depth at worst. More li,Eli he's starting for us though