BillsFan4

I don't get the tanking talk, but what I really don't get is why some think that Sammy Watkins makes or breaks the Bills season. This is a totally different team from last year. I believe there are something like 30 players left from last year, and over 50 new guys. We really have no idea what this team is going to be. I get that we traded the more talented player away in Sammy. But he hasn't really produced big numbers on the field here. I like to think this is the season that it was finally going to happen, but as of now they got back a receiver who's been just as productive but more available on the field. What I'm worried about is Cordy Glenn still not able to play and going to Wisconsin for some type of injection. This foot thing looks to be a lingering issue and we have no depth a LT (unless rookie Dion Dawkins is able to step in and play well). We could be in big trouble without Glenn...

I agree that the pick was likely the main piece. But I think getting a receiver back for this year was also important. I really do think Matthews is a great fit here, at least character wise. He's definitely a McDermott/Beane type of player to a T. They've kind of given that same line about a lot of players. I think it's really important to them that they have players who want to be here and are bought in. We will just have to wait and see what happens. Matthews could fit great and end up pricing himself out anyway. The cool thing is that even if he does walk, they likely still get the same 3rd round comp pick they'd have got if Sammy walked.

He never said that Rex demanded an answer. Here are his exact words - 'As the call came to a close, Pegula said Ryan asked to speak to the owner privately. Pegula said Ryan then directly asked him about his future beyond this season. "I was asked a point-blank question and based on the discussions we've been having all year, I felt it was better to tell Rex that we were going in a different direction," Pegula said.' Though Pegula was going to wait to evaluate Ryan's job after the season, he said he probably would've come to the same conclusion now as he did a week ago. Pegula based his decision on his own observations, input he's received from his front-office staff over the course of the season, and also on previous discussions he's had with Ryan regarding addressing the team's struggles. "(Whaley) had input on the basis of conversations throughout the year, what the problems were," Pegula said. "But did Doug ever say, 'Are we firing our coach, are we keeping our coach?' We never had that conversation. I took it upon myself to tell Rex on the basis of conversations about the games and the aftermath of certain games that, hey, things aren't going well." https://apnews.com/0532b3f5c39c48c6a459e129de478c74/apnewsbreak-bills-owner-outlines-reasons-he-fired-rex-ryan That's seems different than a stunning ultimatum, Rex demanding an answer and Pegula being uncertain about what he was doing. He knew Rex was gone, he just wanted to wait 1 more game to do it. There were rumors for weeks on end that he was a goner.

I know what you're referring to with Marrone (although I don't know if he ever issued an ultimatum. It was reported he asked for extensions for him and was told no, then asked for extensions for his coordinators and Pegula again said no, then (I think it was a day or so later) used his out clause . That's a bit different than giving an ultimatum). But what "stunning ultimatum" did Rex give Pegula? If you are talking about Pegula saying that Rex asked if he was going to be fired and if so could he just leave now instead of having to coach the last game against the Jets, I'd hardly call that a stunning ultimatum. I'd call it a question. He asked Pegula's permission to leave now and not to have to face all the questions in NYC if he was going to be fired right after that anyway. Maybe you're referring to something else though?

They said that they're going to let things play out a bit first. But if he fits in well and has interest in staying here, they will be interested in signing him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3200&type=team

Actually, it is pretty smart if you think about the whole situation. If they felt that Sammy was going to be too expensive to re-sign for their tastes, they did a good job at asset management IMO. They got what should be a high 2nd rounder for Sammy, plus they (separately) acquired a receiver who although is a step down from Sammy has been just as productive on the field and should be cheaper to re-sign. But if he walks they will still have a shot to get the same 3rd round comp pick that they would have got if Sammy left in free agency. In the end they got a replacement CB for Darby who should fit the scheme better, plus a 2nd, 3rd and either a good replacement wide receiver for this year and maybe long term (Matthews, if re-signed) or the same comp pick they'd have got if Sammy left. Edit - it's also worth mentioning that the comp pick they potentially would have got for Sammy wouldn't have been until 2019.

I definitely think they are aligned. Here's a couple,quotes from McDermott's press conference that make me think that - "... to address the second part of your question, really with the draft picks, as we talk about short term and long term, that's a big part of with planning for the future. We believe that you build through the draft and in order to get us into a situation where we can achieve success and sustain it, building through the draft is the way" "...it's got to be the right deal. It's got to be the right situation for us to do something like this and I feel like we're moving in the right direction. I honestly believe that. I will end by saying this - I have the ultimate trust in Brandon and his staff." It would be pretty shocking if they weren't on the same page. McDermott seemed to push pretty hard for Beane to be hired from what we can gather. When you listen to each of them talk, they are always talking about similar things - high character, team first, full buy in, players must fit the team/system/culture. If you look at the type of players they both have acquired, they all fit the exact same mould. (McDermott) Zay Jones, Tre White, Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer. (Beane) Anquan Boldin, Jordan Matthews, EJ Gaines. They are all players noted for their very high character, and as being 100% team first guys. It's very noticeable when you listen to each of those players talk just how cut from the same cloth all of them are. That's one of the things that really excites me about this new coach/GM combo. They really seem to be in lock step and share an identical vision. I don't think the Bills have had anything like that in quite some time.

They had like $19M in cap space entering this offseason with something like 26 players to sign. Like I said, it's in better shape now after some tough cuts, http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/ Spotrac has the Bills at $6M in cap space this year and $26M in cap space next year. Has they kept Sammy and tagged or,paid him, that likely takes up at minimum $15M of that $26M in cap space. So that leaves $11M or less to make other improvements to the team.

It's not about improving depth for 2017. It's about 2018, 2019 and beyond. Theyre stockpiling draft picks to build this team. They hired the best scouting/personnel staff that they possibly could and plan to build through the draft. It's something the Bills haven't done in a long time. I'm willing to give it a chance.

"... So youre looking at a guy whos walking into his free agent year," Beane said. "I mentioned where our cap situation is at, you just dont know how youre going to be able to afford him. You dont know exactly what his market is going to be but you see where some of the guys are being paid now, so that had to be a factor in this decision, Beane said. I couldn't find his initial quote on the Bills salary cap situation. But it sounds like that was a big factor. They are trying to get the Bills cap back in order, which is something that needed to be done. They were a mediocre 7 win team that was in rough cap shape with a ton of free agents to sign entering this offseason. That situation has gotten better after some tough cuts and the Sammy trade. I didn't at all get that he wasn't willing to pay anyone.

Maybe they think tanking is a terrible way to build a new culture, get player buy in and develop their rookies, and keeping TT and Shady is a better way to get the respect of their new players and develop their new cuture. Maybe they think Tyrod deserves a shot to prove himself after playing pretty well in his first 2 seasons starting. Maybe they felt they don't need a top 3 pick to get their QB. Many teams have gotten their QB without a top 3 pick. The run game did alright last season without Sammy on the field. Having TT is going to help th run game as it did the last 2 seasons. Plus we have a very good run blocking O line. One of the best in the NFL. The run game should be fine. The pass game we will have to wait and see. I don't think this offense is predicated on a deep threat like Roman's was. I think It's more of a horizontal passing offense, not a vertical one. It's predicated on short passes and YAC. They want to possess the ball and run the clock. The worst possible return for Sammy? A 2nd and likely starting CB is definitely not the worst possible return, especially by NFL standards (especially considering they got a starting WR back in a separate but connected trade). The worst possible return would have been a comp 3rd round pick in 2019 IMO, after Sammy signs somewhere else in FA. Or worse yet no comp pick at all because the Bills can't afford not to sign free agents to help round out their roster. Look at what other good players have been traded for. A 2nd and a decent CB for an often injured WR is actually a pretty decent return. Now if Sammy didn't have the injury history he does, and had actually produced and out up numbers on the field, his value would have been higher. Now I'm not going to say that it doesn't hurt losing Sammy for a 2nd and a CB. It does. But worst possible return is a major over exaggeration. And his foot injury might be completely healed. But he's injured like 6 different body parts in his 3 years here. Let's just wait and see if he's able to stay healthy for a whole season, and even if he is able to stay healthy for 1 season out of 4, let's see how the next few years go. I know you've already decided this trade is terrible. But that's TBD yet.

I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it. Sounds like he truly isn't involved in football decisions anymore, which is a good thing IMO. Let the football guys runs things and let him do his marketing thing. I think it truly is a new day and age for this team! lol I could see that being true. I don't know if McDermott knew there were active trade discussions happening but I'm sure they at least had discussions about those players fitting the team long term. I can't imagine Beane trading those two if McDermott wanted them both here long term.

they were clearly not 1 Sammy Watkins away from the playoffs anyway. They have massive holes all over the roster with terrible depth and signing him for $15-$17+M per year greatly hurts their ability to field a complete team with depth, especially with some of the big salaries on the cap for the next couple/few years. It's kind of a waste with a run first team, and an elite WR isn't what wins championships anyway. They're nice to have, but nowhere near one of the key important pieces IMO. 6 picks in the first 3 rounds gives the Bills a chance at building an actual, complete team. Another draft or two and they might actually have some real depth too. Something the Bills haven't had in a long time. The best teams are built through the draft. Like it or not this was more than likely a transition year anyway. New GM, all new coaches, new schemes. When you change coaches and schemes, some players no longer fit. They will figure out which players those are and move on from them. Your timeline of 3 years is probably about right, even if we don't like it. But at least this team is being built properly through the draft for once instead of taking the bandaid approach.

Here's my opinion on what you said - First, a big reason why the Bills haven't kept their own talent is constant coaching changes, making good players no longer proper fits. So hopefully these new guys are here for more than a couple years and they can actually have a chance to build something properly. They are stockpiling draft picks to build the type of team they want. When is the last time the Bills did that? That's what Polian did in the '80's and that worked out pretty well. The Bills have tried the bandaid approach for years and years. Time for something new, and building through the draft is a long used and well proven method to build a winning team. Many/most of the best teams in the NFL were built through the draft. I don't know why you think Beane will trade away his picks just because he traded 2 players that they obviously felt were not long term fits. Doesn't seem like one has anything to do with the other... I agree building through the draft is a good concept, and that you need veterans to help them along. Which is why they have kept veteran players and not went into full tank mode. Sammy Watkins and Ron Darby were not really veteran players. They've been in the league 3 and 2 years, respectively. Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, Anquan Boldin, Tyrod Taylor, Richie Incognito, Lorenzo Alexander, Micah Hyde (etc) - those are veteran players, and most every one of them are very good about helping younger guys along. The Bills have put a focus on bringing in and keeping character guys like them. I'm sure a Beane does want to win now, but the most important thing is building a consistent winner for the long term. As far as a speed receiver - this is a horizontal passing west coast offense, built on short passes w/yards after the catch, possession of the ball/earring up clock. It's not Greg Roman's offense anymore. A deep threat is not as important. Zay Jones could end up being our deep threat anyway. Or even Matthews. Both ran almost identical 40 times to Watkins. Rod Streator ran a faster 40 time. IMO speed guys are pretty easy to find if they decide they need someone like that and don't have him on the team. How does trading Watkins really change the win/loss for this year anyway? The offense did alright without him on the field last year. It was the defense who struggled. They've improved their WR core over what they had last year though (especially compared to what they had without Watkins on the field last year). It's basically a totally different team from last year anyway. There are only like 30 players from last season left. So one Sammy Watkins isn't going to be the difference between winning and losing this year... It's going to be a combination of a lot of things.

Me too. I'm just hoping he's a good fit and produces on the field, likes it here and is then signed to an extension. He is definitely a perfect fit as far as the type of character guys McDermott wants. Let's hope the on field stuff works out well too.

I don't know. I guess I'm just not really that worried about a deep threat, and I think between some of the guys we have one of them will be able to run a go route when needed. This isn't the same Greg Doman style offense. It's not predicated on a deep threat like his was. The offense and run game seemed to do fine without Sammy last year, and I'd argue that our WR core is an upgrade over what we had last season (especially without Sammy on the field). So hopefully it'll be the same this year... It's likely a transition year anyway. The team is far from done being built.

Well said. Agree with pretty much all of this. I'm not so convinced that they will be trying to trade up for a QB like many others are. I think they're stockpiling picks to rebuild the entire team, not just go after a QB. If the right one is there in the 1st, I think they take him. Or make a trade up if the cost is low enough. Also agree about Whaley. His philiospoly seemed to be to acquire the most talented player he could (and he said as much, more than once). Having been a scout his whole career, Talent was the #1 priority for him. He didn't really seem to have a specific type of player or team building philosophy. He just wanted the most athletically talented player he could get. It gave the Bills some exciting players, but didn't ever really lead to enough wins for us. Beane and McDermott have a very clear plan. They want high character, selfless 100% team first guys. It does remind me a lot of Belichick TBH. Will it work? Time will tell. But it's been an long time since the Bills have truly been built through the draft. Seeing as that's how most of the best teams have been built, I'm all for it.

I just posted in another thread that Rod Streator ran a 4.37 (Sammy ran a 4.43 for reference) 40yd dash. Maybe they use him as the speedster if he makes the team? I think he was a Tracy and field guy too IIRC. Kinda like a Goodwin 2.0 that has hung onto the ball well (so far). lol I agree about Darby doing well under Jim Shorts (as long as 2016 was more of an anomaly). He will play more man coverage under JS, so that should help compared to McDermott's D scheme here. Matthews does seem like a great fit, too. Seems like a very high character totally team first McDermott type guy, and a nice fit for a WCO.

Sammy ran a 4.43 at the combine. Matthews ran a 4.46 and Zay Jones ran a 4.45. Doesn't seem like that huge of a difference to me, if they wanted to send Matthews or Jones on a go route. I believe Jones did alright as a deep threat in college when they asked him to, no? We don't really know how Dennison will use them yet. Rod Streator actually ran a 4.37 sec. 40yd dash. So maybe he can be the deep threat? I wonder how much Dennison will use the deep pass, though. Seems like maybe he plans on using shorter passes and YAC, playing a possession style game eating up clock. I guess we will see. If they do feel they need a true burner/deep threat I'm sure they'll try and find one between now and the start of the season. Shouldn't be all that hard to find a speed guy IMO.

They had to teach him how to hold a football properly last year, so no surprise there... lol Kid is as raw as can be.

Beane said during his press conference that he didn't tell McDermott about the trade until the night before they made it. He said he didn't want to distract them from their game preparation. Also said he waited until the trade was real before bringing it to him and Pegula. I'd imagine they had some discussions about Sammy maybe not fitting into their long term plan before hand, and I'd also imagine that Beane, McDermott and Pegula agreed to make this trade. But if Beane is to be believed, McDermott and co. didn't know about the actual trade until the night before.

Thanks for the apology. Appreciate it.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/08/12/jordan-matthews-eager-play-tyrod-taylor-keep-representing-2014-wr-draft-class/ "Tyrod's a great asset to the Bills," Matthews said. "To be able to play with him is going to be awesome because I already know what kind of person he is." "Tyrod works hard," Matthews said. "He was always the first guy in the building whenever we were training in Arizona" "He definitely has a savvy about him, and he understands people. He's not one of those guys who was modeled to be a quarterback but has no people skills. He knows how to lead a locker room. He knows how to talk to the receivers, the rest of the offense and get everybody pulling in the same direction." "And I also think he has a chip on his shoulder," Matthews said. "When you go through history, the best quarterbacks always have a chip on their shoulders." "I'm excited to see what he's going to do."

Trying to rationally look at why a trade was made is not pathetic. But again, continually calling your fellow Bills fans pathetic because they bring up something you don't agree with, well... it's not s good look to say it nicely. You attacked me yesterday and called me pathetic after a wrote what I felt was a well thought out and rational post. You didn't bother going into detail as to why you didn't agree. You just called me pathetic. And now I've seen you do the same thing to multiple other people. It's very likely that Sammy was gone after this year, whether you like it or not. Either because the organization didn't see him as a fit or didn't want to dish out a massive deal for him (remember he said he wanted to change the pay scale of the entire NFL) or because they didn't like the way he fit the team or his attitude or whatever other reasons there were. it's also very likely that the Bills didn't want to use up roughly 2/3rds of their currently available 2018 cap space to franchise tag an often injured receiver, who has yet to make it through a single season healthy. So you can say that they could have tagged him. But maybe they didn't want to use $15-$17M of their $26M in cap space on Sammy.