AKC

#91 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=13143 #92 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=8447 #52 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=15199

I'll be happy to answer that. From the very first post in this string, among the things I've proven with facts are that a quarterback skill most of the best of all time possessed is actually a huge chasm in Brady's game. I've asked you to simply acknowledge that all the facts support that Brady is awful at throwing the ball downfield. For some reason you refuse to acknowledge what is inarguable. So I figure you're either a Troll or a moron, and I feel justified in being condescending to both. If you're a Troll, you apparently can't find enough people to talk about your own team and you're here instead on a Buffalo Bill's board offering absolutely nothing in the way of a contribution to football conversation (or in societal terms- you're a loser). On the other hand, if you're a moron, you have entered a conversation you can't understand and that's a waste of the bandwidth. Hope that clears things up for you.

That'd be a big fat ZERO on the pop quiz. Let's give you one more chance to prove there's blood flowing between your ears: If a Quarterback in the NFL was among the 10 worst at throwing the football more than 9 yards past the line of scrimmage, and the league confirmed and certified that the quarterback was among the worst in the league, would you then agree with the irrefutable facts and the official league statistics that that quarterback was a poor downfield passer- even if he was the quarterback who's Fathead is on your bedroom wall?

I'll be happy to as soon as we establish that you have some, make that any, comprehension abilities- (remember, not every classroom is appropriate for every student). Do you now recognize from the irrefutable facts laid out in this string that Tom Brady is one of the worst downfield passers in the NFL today?

If you don't like stats, try the facts- Tom Brady is among the worst Quarterbacks in the NFL when he is asked to throw the ball downfield. This terrible problem of his has gone on his whole career. You see, I can give you information to better your understanding of the game of football- but I have no ability to refresh the brain cells you lost in that terrible childhood accident. Such a shame.

In '04 his rating from 21-30 yards was 44, and from the 31-40 was only 55. No one bothered to cover his wideouts past 30 yards becasue of his horrendous performance downfield up to then, and as a result he got lucky on a few downfield chucks. We can see the league adjusted since 2004 by leaving the occasional Safety downfield, completely frustrating one of the worst downfield passers in the NFL today on the deep ball. Speaking of Short Bus Riders! Jump onboard Trollboy! Guess there's not much going on over at the Patsy Message Board? At a minimum he'd have to achieve being an "average" downfield passer, a primary skill all the Great QBs in league history have achieved. Of course, to do that he'll have to SERIOUSLY make up for completing 38% of his downfield passers and coughing up a bottom-feeding rating in the 60s on downfield passes when the great passers of his era are over 110 :-)

Apparently it's my turn to chaperone the Short Bus riders- So you Brain Surgeons have come up with the theory that it's the Wide Receivers who make the QB better, and that a QB like Brady who has has suffered with "only" one Pro Bowler and "only" one Super Bowl MVP Wideout is at a disadvantage- explaining his pathetic downfield Passer Rating of 67 this year and career-long awful downfield numbers? We'll wait for your list of the great Wide Receivers Jeff Garcia was throwing to this season while whipping Brady in downfield passing by 40 points? How about Damon Huard by 50 points? And I can't wait to hear the names of the Pro Bowl quality WRs that Mark Brunnell was using to beat Brady in downfield passing. Truth is, not one of the above QBs had a Wide Receiver among the top 30. Not one of them has a Wide Reciever going to the Pro Bowl. Yet they whipped on Brady's downfield passing numbers. And surely, since it has already been pointed out in this string that JP Losman was more than a dozen points better downfield than Brady in 2006, we won't hear either of you suggesting there be any additions to the Bill's Wide Receiver Depth Chart this off-season! Why don't you leave those conical hats with me, they aren't allowed on your ride home.

I think we're in complete agreement that Brady fell into a best case scenario for him in NE. I doubt he'd even be in the NFL if he'd been on a Denny Green bench, and on most other teams it would have been tough for him to get his break. Belichick not only gave him the shot but has gotten more out of him than I believe any other contemporary NFL coach would. By putting him in a System wherein the QB was less responsible for offensive success than in other schemes, Brady has thrived. As to his OC influence, I'd still love if the opportunity for the Emperor's New Clothes to be exposed presented itself by having Brady and all of his OC skills ship off to a big free agent contract in, let's say, Detroit.

Logically why would Brady's 38% downfield completion rate benefit at all by receivers who outrun his arm strength? It's more logical that Brady would become far worse with receivers who simply get outside his range before he has a chance to throw the ball. In your scenario, logic says Brady would likely fall to a 25 or 30% completion rate if he had the Indy WRs. In fact, Brady's completion rate over 30 yards this past season WAS only 25% so therein you have an answer that requires no speculation.

I thought Manning played a pretty spectacular second half this past weekend. He sat on the edge of the pressure he saw with regularity and made plays happen with his feet (in the pocket) as well as his arm. Brady looked a bit cooked to me. If you think I have distaste for Brady, you're not getting the essence of my posts. I have substantial disdain for the media and the lemming fans who follow their overglorification of the guy's role on the team he plays on. He's a very good, maybe great, System QB who is playing in a system that does not suffer from his bad downfield skills, easily fried arm or his lack of mobility. Instead, his good instincts with his feet in the pocket, good release and willingness to put in the study time have made him a great fit on a team that is so much bigger than their QB that you could plug 4 or 5 other guys into the NE system over the same period with similar results- IMO of course. On the other hand, on Manning's team the "influence on a win" looks something like this: 1 Manning's Performance 2 OLines Peformance 3 WR Performance 4 Defensive Performance 5 Game Plan 6-etc. In New England the "influence on a win" hierarchy looks more like this: 1 Belichick's Defensive strategy 2 Defensive Performance 3 RBs Performance 4 Belichick's Offensive strategy 5 Brady's Performance 6-etc. So I have no problem with Brady's skillset, I see all the things he does well. I also see the things he gets credited with that he has virtually nothing to do with. For instance, what QB on any NFL roster would have failed to execute the Belichick offensive strategy of simply using draw play after draw play on third downs throughout the first half at Indy? What in the world did Brady have to do with that or it's success? Nothing, of course. But hey, don't put me in the position of exposing how good I think Belichick is ;-) I'll give you that it's possible Belichick doesn't give a thorough study of the opposing defense and give his OC an opening drive strategy, but I find that highly, highly improbable. He's a micromanager and this thumbprints in my opinion are all over the opening offensive drive.

Picking on us because of our age isn't very nice. Maybe I missed your response- just how far did you suggest Brady would have gotten the Colts this year? Even in my old age, I'm humored by those who for some reason can't simply acknowledge that the Pat's Defense has been their foundation over the past 6 seasons. It's a team that has won with one of the league's best defenses, defenses who have played big for them against some of the best league offenses in big games. Maybe if the defense is acknowledged for being as good as they clearly have been, many of the little Brady Bubbles many cling to lose a bit of luster as far as what it is that really makes the Pats tick.

Perhaps it's simply my mean spirit versus my keen observation skills, but on Brady's final 5 pass attempts going back to his next to last drive, I thought the smell of pasta cooking was awfully strong?

In the 6 years he's been there they've had the #1 defense once, the #2 twice along with a #6 in points allowed. Maybe I missed something but perhaps you can help me compile a list of 4 or 5 other NFL teams showing that type of defensive dominance over the same 6 years? I only come up with 2 guesses without looking it up.

And of course for you ladies, when JP pinches your butt it ain't for the benefit of the cameras ;-)

I'd substitute "system" versus "style", but you can still yell Bingo. I feel compelled to turn you in the direction of the 800 pound Gorilla here- it's a lot easier to run a System Offense when you have a top of the league defense giving the offense all kinds of extra and better opportunites each game that other offenses simply don't get. They might have had the same run since 2001 with Mouse Davis and the run and shoot.

How far would the 2006 Indy team have gone this year with Brady and his 38% downfield completion rate Quarterbacking them? Keep in mind that he's lifetime only a 40% passer from 10 yards and out, even when he was working with Pro Bowl and Super Bowl MVP wide receivers over those years.

I'm guessing that common, yet IMO disproved, conception comes from most of us ignoring the regular throw-aways Brady makes to the sidelines. Since his system rewards him in the short game, on any deeper drop where he gets antsy the ball with regularly goes out of bounds. I don't have a stat for his sideline throw-aways, but I'd bet he leads the league in dirt balls per downfield pass by a fairly substantial margin. Once again, if any QB in a Downfield Passing Offense threw downfield balls away at the rate Brady does, they'd play for perennial cellar dwellers and the QB would live on the hot seat or the bench. In the Pat's System, the QB responsibility level to offensive strength is so low that he can afford to throw these away. However anyone else might try to twist the stats, what is irrefutable when looking at Brady's lifetime downfield passing and the correlation to his offense's effectiveness versus the downfield passers in the game and their correlation between their downfield stats and their offenses effectiveness is this: Downfield Passers downfield passing has a direct correlation on their team's Offensive effectiveness. Brady's downfield ineptitude has had no clear correlation whatsoever on his team's offensive effectiveness. Knowing that, for me it's hard to imagine any more solid evidence that Brady is not nearly as important to his offense as Manning is to his. The stats fully suppport this observation. I also never understood the "Phantom Sack" phenomenon that Brady is building quite a record of- in a game with us this season he collapsed as whimpily as the famed "Chrisie Everett" sack that made Jim Everett a target of jokes even to this day. When I saw Brady do it again this past week I wondered how much evidence of his weaknesses will go disregarded simply because he's played with the steadiest top defense in the league his whole career? After watching Jeff Garcia jump in at Philly this year, I think it's clear that he could have quite easily matched Brady's wins in NE, and probably by a lot more than a swing of his kicker's foot. Watching a team who has won championships with great defense constantly being looked at as some kind of offensive juggernaut is almost comical. I always thought Montana was the better System Quarterback when compared with Brady. I don't have his downfield passing numbers but it's hard to imagine they're as god-awful as Brady's lifetime numbers. Another thing in Montana's favor was that he was the pioneer of System Quarterbacking. There had only been one QB playing in Pro Football prior to him, and Virgil Carter hardly left a plethora of film for Montana to use to help develop the footwork that forms the foundation of he and Brady's games.

Not to drift too much from the topic of "Best in the Game", but JP's QB Rating downfield was 80.

While statistics are sometimes misleading, considered in full context they can be enlightening in demonstrating the dynamics playing out “between the lines” of any football game. A game of football can be watched many ways, but sometimes even the experienced watcher can miss critical elements within the game that are crucial to a more complete understanding. It is here, in the nuances of the game, that statistics can fill in enough pieces of the picture to help answer some of the most common questions about the game of football as played in the NFL such as “Who’s the best Quarterback?”. In order to establish this, it’s important to understand the stark differences between offensive schemes. Even casual fans understand that there’s a big difference between playing QB in an Option Offense and a traditional NFL Downfield Passing Offense. What most fans overlook is that the differences between a System Offense like the West Coast and a traditional Downfield Passing Offense differ to probably a greater degree than even the Option Offense does to Traditional Downfield Passing Offenses. I’ll demonstrate that here. The West Coast Offense was designed specifically to- at the earliest moment- get the ball out of the QB’s hands and into the hands of a playmaker. At its roots the West Coast System seeks to limit the QB’s role to that of a “point guard” in distributing the ball to the “shooters” on the team. By contrast, the traditonal Downfield Passing Quarterback is required to be both “point guard” and “shooter”. Like the college Option Offense, a staple of the West Coast is having much of the ball exchange taking place behind or within a few yards of the LOS. In fact, much like the Option Quarterback, the West Coast System rewards QBs who have better skills in that short range of play from the backfield out to about 10 yards from the Line Of Scrimmage. The traditional Downfield Passing Quarterback has no such luxury- he is asked to perform almost the opposite job from the West Coast or Option type Quarterback- he is tasked with effectively throwing the ball downfield beyond 10 yards, with the consequences of his personal failure being the failure of his offense. Unlike his counterpart in a West Coast System, where the Quarterback is looking to immediately put the ball in the hands of a playmaker, the Downfield Pro Passing Quarterback is the team’s primary playmaker. This fundamental difference separates completely the requirements to play in a traditional Downfield Pro Passing Offense versus a West Coast System: The West Coast QB's primary task is to distribute the ball to his offense’s playmakers. The Downfield Passing Quarterback is the Primary Playmaker within his offense. We can statistically demonstrate this difference by looking at the highest regarded QBs in the game today. Peyton Manning is a traditional QB throwing the ball downfield effectively year after year. Peyton threw the lowest number of behind the Line of Scrimmage passes per game among all NFL starters in 2006. Manning has a QB rating on downfield passes of 112 and a completion rate on those downfield balls beyond 10 yards of 57%. Manning makes the throws, and makes them effectively, that are required for a traditional Downfield Passing Quarterback to lead a Downfield Offense as its primary playmaker. His effectiveness is the single most important key to the success of his offense. If he fails throwing the ball downfield with effectiveness, his offense will also fail. On the other side of the offensive style spectrum we have the System QB. Looking at the top-rated System Quarterback in the game today we can study the stark difference between a traditional NFL QB like Manning and a System QB. Tom Brady once again had a terrible year throwing the ball downfield, as he has throughout his career. In fact, in 2006 of all his passes thrown over 10 yards Brady completed only 38%. Over 30 yards Brady hit on only 25% of his throws. On these balls downfield, where a good downfield passer like Drew Brees held a passer rating of 137, the system QB in New England was only able to manage a QB rating of 66. Brady this year was among the worst starters in the NFL in passing beyond 10 yards. 2006 Season Quarterback Stats: Manning Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 57% Passer Rating 112 Brady Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 38%Passer Rating 66 Brees Beyond 10 Yards> Comp. % 58% Passer Rating 137 Don’t assume that these awful downfield passing numbers of Brady are exclusive to the 2006 campaign; they actually parallel his career numbers which are a QB Rating of 67 and completion percentage barely over 40% when throwing 10 yards or more downfield. Brady plays in a System that doesn’t require that he throw downfield well, and luckily for his team the System hasn’t penalized him or his offense for his bottom of the league performances throwing downfield. Surely the biggest advantage to not having to be effective downfield is that Brady doesn’t have to put himself into the highest pressure situations that Downfield Passing QB’s face throughout a game. The fact is the West Coast QB has far less pressure and far greater opportunities to simply dump the ball on the sidelines, a staple of Brady’s game. Tom Brady’s numbers prove that you can complete less than 40% of your throws downfield in the West Coast and it will have virtually no apparent negative impact on the effectiveness of the System Offense. On the other hand, if Manning or Brees complete only 38% of their downfield passes, the Saints and Colts miss the playoffs this year- and badly. Unlike their counterpart in New England, Manning and Brees are of course the primary playmakers in their offenses. Manning and Brees simply don’t have the luxury of throwing every second or third long ball to the sidelines to avoid pressure or sacks. The design of their Downfield Passing offenses places the largest burden of offensive success squarely on the Quarterback’s shoulders. In the West Coast, the percentage of burden on the Quarterback for offensive success is dramatically reduced. It’s clear from the irrefutable record of Brady’s horrible record career-long downfield passing during a span that his team’s offense has played effectively: the West Coast QB has a mere fraction of the pressure and responsibility burden that Downfield Passing Offenses places upon theirs. It’s mandatory to factor this in when considering any title for “Best in the League”. We would be insulting Quarterbacks who have made their NFL living the “hard way”- standing in pockets facing the rush and making deep throws with their team’s success completely on the line- if we simply ignore all the clear proof that shows that System Quarterbacks don’t measure up to the Downfield Passing Quarterbacks when it comes to the tasks they perform, their level of responsibility within their offense or the pressure they face as a result. Manning may not be the best QB in the NFL today, but he’s still far, far better than any of the System Quarterbacks who have ever played in the NFL up to this point in history.

I'm trying to think of a team whose defense might only be a premier one gap DT away from being one of the league's best units............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... His Senior Bowl could be telling for us. His current weight should scare off the Miami's of the league and possibly leave him there for "someone" in need.

I always liked Mark- but Royal is a more powerful run blocker and he still makes the plays in the passing game Campbell could. We'd be better off with both of them-

Wayne surely semed to have a substantial advantage on Assante in Nov. It's hard to imagine how that might change since it's even harder to imagine NE switching their coverage scheme to go one DB on Harrison instead of putting Hobbs and deep help on him.

I'd heard that too-

System offenses like the West Coast don't require a Quarterback to have great skills- the System actually diminishes the requirements for the Quarterback and masks the deficiencies in their game. It's hardly any different than trying to argue Tiki Barber as the best RB in football- there are some measures that allow a small RB to look good on paper, but the truth is that Tiki simply can't play all the situations a guy like Jim Brown did. It's no mystery for homers in Patsy land to fawn over Mr. INT in any situation he sees the least bit of pressure, but any football fan who thinks Brady is the equal of John Elway is a fool. Brady's not even the best System QB in history- nor is he the best QB in the league today.

That seems to be the clear writing on the wall- it'll be interesting if he follows his self-appointed "early retirement" in Buff with another one in Miami. I don't have any strong feelings on Cameron, but I would (with some glee) point out that he was a "co-conspirator" in the 4th and 11 questions from last weeks game.