DazedandConfused

I understand what you are saying. I don't believe it because it is certainly outside my experience of life. However, one of the things which my 50 years have taught me (mostly from the years and years of making mistakes and fortunately surviving the mistakes) is that just because I do not believe it, this does not mean that it is not true.

Yeah, the nuke stuff is probably north. The problems are: 1. We do not know for sure how big and how much as we have let our fear of "others" get in the way of finding and sharing information among us. There are stories which seem to be fairly simple in terms of whether they are true or not of a surprisingly large irradiated dome of metal being disposed of in the NF area, but sufficient information to even dispose of this as some bizarre conspiracy theory is not allowed to be there. 2. Given the collateral development which by plan we hope to create with a stadium investment (the problem with the Ralph is that OP is actually a community where we do not want collateral investment to displace families so it will never be what this investment can be in order to be deemed a financial success) not knowing what the physical status of collateral lands off of the site but north where the nuke stuff is important. 3. As we saw (see) in Love Canal, the unknown and unclear nuke stuff is a problem, but non-nuke chemicals whose disposal is even more widespread is at least an issue and in bad cases like Love Canal (or Sunshine City as the feds once proposed rebranding it) is actually a problem. NF development does not scare me because of known problems, its what we don't seem to know that is the scary thing.

One of the other issues that likely would become a lead item of discussion in any attempt to reclaim large amounts of NF, NY land to build a stadium and the ancillary private development it would trigger if you did this right is a pretty incredible legacy of toxic and nuclear waste buried in the land beneath that city. NF actually played a central role in the development of the nuclear weapons which were dropped on Japan as significant parts of the early research into building the bomb were done at sites such as the Lake Ontario Ordinance Woeks (LOOW), This story is actually one is really untold as much of this data was (and some crucial info to determine what is and what happened at the massive site) is still deemed top secret and classified. If folks want more info check out the article in a local WNY newspaper which explores facts and myths related to the site > http://blogs.artvoice.com/avdaily/2008/05/...acts-and-myths/ <. As much as 5000 acres of land in NF were part of development of this site and I believe roughly 2500 acres is deemed to unusable by human beings. The scary thing is that this site does not even include other NF nuggets like Love Canal, the first ever designated site by the Feds under the Superfund program which sought to clean-up the decades of misuse of the land, the environment, and people which was done by folks to make a nickel and escape to their vacation homes before anyone figured out what was going on. One site summarized the LOOW site as: Manhattan Project and other waste stored in the IWCS : • approximately 25,000 cubic yards of radioactive residues, • 235,000 cubic yards of contaminated soil and debris, • primary materials of concern are radium, thorium, and uranium. My sense is that any major attempt to do a major redevelopment project in NF is going to run head on into raising some issues for public discussion that liability issues makes a bunch of folk with money and power want to keep covered up.

Stadium investment is an odd thing in that the economic studies I have seen indicate that there are often far better monetary investments for an area than for a football arena that is going to see usage on relatively few days per year. The problem in addition is that if this is the only type of investment which can be had (the private sector is not beating down any doors to do investment in these times of economic meltdown and even if they were NF would not likely be their first choice) then perhaps with some analysis it might make some sense. My guess from a back of the envelope perspective is that one is looking for a sweet spot where on triggers a largish governmental investment into building a stadium in a place that is not do good that it can compete in the remnants of the private sector, but not so bad that this football arena can attract additional traffic to make the expenditure worthwhile. My guess is that building a stadium on the waterfront in downtown Buffalo probably is better choice than building one in NF. In terms of logistics downtown Buffalo is a more accessible location than NFL to the I-90 serving the region both east and west, and also is a better connection to Toronto since the QEW goes from Toronto to Buffalo and actually one must take a spur to get to NF. My sense is that anyway you cut it this is gonna be an economic boondoggle but it is actually the economic ghettos of NYS that will benefit the most from getting a stadium investment. Of the ghettos I think a Buffalo waterfront spot makes more sense than an NF investment.

It always amazed me that some folks were lamenting the loss of JJ back in 05 as proof of their thought that either the Bills were unable to devote sufficient cash to sign stars or of a lack of commitment to OL development. The Bills problem has not been a lack of focus on the importance of OL development, their problem has been miscues such spending a first day choice on the injury prone JJ and a #4 on Mike Williams.

Great job The best thing about it is that it looks like the approach the Bills take to the draft in that they are not so focused on one player (if they were the answer is more clearly trade up or risk dying and they are not trading up), but really are more focused on taking the best player they judge to be available at a number of positions. The ultimate question I think comes down to which position do they hope really works out given the overall strategy they want to pursue. My sense is that this is a wildcard but that jauron all things being whatever they turn out to be is a D oriented guy. The nice thing for them trying to anticipate their pick is that #11 it is really unlikely that there will be a run on BOTH D slots. My guess is that if Maybin is gone they take Matthews and if Matthews is gone they take Maybin and if both are left it really comes down to which player Jauron likes more.

A bolt of lightening has to land somewhere and I think all Bills fans hope that a lightening bolt (or a couple) will hit our OL will not only stabilize but even improve. The draft cracks me up though as the hopes of us rabid fans always springs eternal and haven drank the Kool-Aid fed to us by Mel Kiper and the folks at ESPN and the addiction many of us have to fantasy football folks seem to be counting on the draft to contribute a lot to the 09 season. Yeah, the fact is this could happen. but the Jets hitting the jackpot a few years back getting starting OL players D'Brick and Mangold in the first round seems to make folks feel like this is the norm. This bolt of lightening is actual the rarity and the simple fact is teams can just as easily get a Mike Williams at #4 who proves to be a bust (lest you think it was just Bills stupidity he actually was not the big disappointment in that draft as Harrington selected just before Williams also failed the team which drafted him. In addition, it was not even that the Bills cannot evaluate OL talent as the best LT from that draft class was not even the consensus second choice, the troubled (but hanging in there with the team who drafted him despite him not setting the world on fire) McKinnie was not even the best LT in that draft. At any rate, last time I exhaustively checked a couple of years back even in what was considered a pretty strong class only a hair over 50% of the players taken in the first round were first on their team's depth chart the next year. All of those who expect this team to get a player who will start next year from this draft are likely in for a rude awakening. The simple occurrence is that a team may possibly find a starter in the draft but for every Williams you find in round 5 there often is a bust like McCargo taken in round 1. We rabid fans simply place too much stock in the draft. It may work out but then one might get hit by lightning as well.

I still think that the Bills have likely made a decision to show him the money. The Bills seem to be all about plan Bs (though) they often describe their having a succession plan as making sure all players have good competition. On the OL the Bills already have a big hole to fill since they let Dockery walk. Hamgatner was a good acquisition as he can play guard or center, but since the Fowler era is done, there is the hole at C left to fill as well. Since the Bills do not have a real heir apparent at LT (Chambers gives them depth which allows them to move Walker from RT tp LT if they have to do it, but no one seriously sees him as a long-term answer as a starter. This lack of even taking a whiff at finding an alternative if Peters is disruptive and must go leads me to believe that they have already made a decision to make Peters happy. They likely are waiting until after the draft to settle this question as the uncertainty raises questions for our opponents trying to figure us out.

My lack of real knowledge summary is: 1. Peters has not fired anyone (I have not seen this stated anywhere simply outside observer conclusions being drawn based on who is quoted speaking for Peters in various press reports). 2. Both Taylor and Parker have been officially acknowledged by the the media generally and NFLPA represent Peters. It is unclear to what extent Taylor/Peters are part of the same firm or simply co-ordinate their activities/payment by Peters. 3. The only certainty her is that Peters is the boss and even if Parker is some Svengali puppeting Peters around the ultimate responsibility for what is said and paying people is Peters. My GUESS is that this is simply a normal division of labor btw the agents and/or them doing good agent/bad agent with the Bills.

Maybe parties involved here can solve this by simply declaring a moratorium on: 1. Worrying about whether Graham hates TO or not. In the big picture despite the star promotion which the NFL will do as it and the networks will work to sell the TO vs. Moss miscreant star story to get eyeballs watching the Monday night game, TO is obviously important to the fate of the Bills but he really is a secondary factor (if not tertiary) behind other issues. What Graham thinks is really secondary to this secondary story. 2. Bad reporting on what the latest TO alleged meltdown will impact the team. We have already seen declarations that the jersey # controversy was a first example of TO creating dissension on the Bills only to find out it was the Bills themselves who presented the # to TO in a locker before he even had a chance to whine about it and in the end it sounds like Hardy got the customary payment for the # he is has no attachment to. Now we have reports of TO skipping this voluntary workout because of selfishness only to find out he skipped it get an award for some nice contributions to fighting a disease (a voluntary workout so important that almost half the roster skipped it and Jauron was not in town for it. Stories about TO impacting the team are only good reporting if someone on the team by a name or a couple of anonymous teammates say that they are pissed. Without confirmation these are simply bad reporting.

Tading Peters for two first round choices would be a rip off, but it is the Bills who would be doing the bending over and likely getting screwed in this deal. It is not because Peters is so great (he has talents but he also has clear flaws that lessen his value), but that this assessment completely over-values draft picks. The Bills would simply be writing off the OL as more than a developing unit in 09 if they picked a rookie LT or even two rookies to fill the huge gap we have at LG as well. Not only would this maneuver put our huge investment in Edwards at risk while these rookies learn to become vets in part by being taken to school, but it would be a waste of the one year we are likely to have from TO. Thanks to the promotion of Mel Kiper and ESPN and the popularity of fantasy leagues, many fans simply have an unrealistic view of the draft. In this fantasy world, every late 1st round pick becomes Nate Clements and one should expect the nice trick the Jets pulled off a couple of years ago of getting D'Brick and Mangold to be the norm. This view ignores occurrences like Mike Williams and McCargo, who even though taken in some very good drafts by the Bills were first rounders who went bust. Folks simply put to much value of draft choices when actually though they give hope the devil you know is a far more likely choice than the devil you don't know.

2 1st round picks are a bad deal for us and our prospects. First, based on the reality of how this works out: 1. First, the statistical fact is that even 1st round choices are only a little bit above a 50/50 proposition to work out. We know Jason Peters is a flawed player (a Pro Bowl flawed player but a Pro Bowl quality player) but he is the devil you know versus the devil you don't know. Maybe lightening strikes with the two picks and they both work out, but probably not and we in essence have traded a Pro Bowler for one solid player. 2. The Philly draft picks are both in the last third of the 1st round. Of the draft choices from the 1st round who work out there is a heavy bias toward elite players (which I think are reasonably defined as players who command a top 10 pick. Again the odds are pretty heavily that the two picks we get may work out but just as easily can end up being Mike Williams who was a bust even at #4. I think you have confidence in yourself and feel you have a not impossible shot at getting what the Jets got a couple of years ago in terns of 2 immediate starters on the OL with your first round picks. However, one would be a fool not to realize that though this may happen it probably will not and if we trade a vet whom we know what he can do (even though what we know is he is flawed Pro Bowler) we are simply rolling the dice. Risk is what life is about, but the occurrence of the Williams example and the McCargo example are pretty fresh and again we would be foolish to simply assume this will work. 3. Timeline makes a big difference. Ralph ain't getting younger and there is a pretty strong need for us to take as strong a run as we can at making the playoffs this year. Let's assume foolishly that the two picks will prove to be solid pros once we look back. However, even in this wonderful fantasy, you gotta assume that in their rookie years they will not be vets and that 09 is going to be a challenging year as they learn. I do not see how you risk Edwards playing behind 2 rookies andI do not see how you use your one guaranteed year of TO with a learning experience for your OL. We get rooked big time most likely if all we get for Peters is Philly's 2 firsts.

I think its a question of timing as to win the Bills are looking to make the playoffs. If the team wants to make the playoffs this year after a decade of drought then they are far more interested in vets acquired by FA and trades. If however they are willing to take another year in the wilderness and take a bigger chance that they will not make a later in the first round pick of another Mike Williamsesque pick then they depend on the draft. The simple fact is that rookies are not vets and if they depend on the draft to build this OL then its a two year process even if you are good and you are lucky. Going with vets means you make concessions like going with a vet who may be self-centered (the prob with Peters) or you sign a flawed player but the advantage is you know his flaws and you build an OL that makes up for what present and future players do well and do not do well. Personally, I am interested enough in winning that the draft for me is a depth and hole filler. The simple stats are that even though the conventional wisdom is that a 1st rounder should be a starter in his first year (we got spoiled by the very good pick of Clements), but its only a hair over 50% of the first round picks being first on the team depth chart the next year (I do not know if this was true of last years class if someone is good enough to check but this is how it played out in previous years). Even worse, there is a heavy bias toward truly elite players being first year starters and first on the depth chart their sophomore year. Since I define elite players as those who command a top 10 pick, the Bills at #11 are going to get a guy who is pretty good but the odds of a player taken in the second two thirds of the first round is that he well may not be a contributor as a starter. The idea that some folks have of trading Peters for 2 1st rounders both of whom would be in the lower third of the first round (if the trade partner is Philly) or this year and next year from some other teams would almost certainly be a death knell for our chances of making the playoffs this year. This is one fan who hopes we do not drink the Mel Kiper/fantasy football Kool-aid and depend on the draft for a solid starter in 09 because if we do we are almost certainly going to be very disappointed.

I think the more likely smart GM move is: 1. Yes you want to let mediocre players go, but not if it hurts the team more in terms of the accelerated cap hit. 2. You only let players go when you have (or at least have possibilities) of getting a better player. Unfortunately here in reality its a lot more than a static judgment of a players' absolute value.

This sounds more like good agent/bad agent is the game Peters is playing. If so, this is a good sign because this Peters move means they feel they have gotten as much as they can from cracking heads and holding out and the other agent comes in and makes the deal.

Yes, the press buzz is true. Dick Jauron is apparently a no-show for these "voluntary" off-season workouts. I know they are allegedly "voluntary". I know that there are those who would make a claim that he is just a coach and working out is not a necessity. However, like a player who has a solid rep for always being in good physical condition even without a voluntary workout, a good teamer would set the tone by being here for a workout. Jauron needs to set a tone that these workouts are important because if he is not there then clearly these workouts must be truly voluntary. I think the Bills should definitely get their panties all up in a wad over this no show. Sure, he has a good excuse as he is at the pre-planned NFL meetings, but would we accept a recently acquired player also missing this voluntary workout merely because he had already committed to be elsewhere when he was not even on the team? I definitely think we should freak out mindlessly about a no-show at the voluntary workouts

The problem with your line of thinking is that if the Bills are going to utilize the TE as an essential part of our offense, then they would NEED not only a hot starter, but a credible back-up for him for moments when he got dinged or simply give him a blow. The problem with your formulation is that it is really tough to find this unusual hybrid of a player who is a "complete" TE as you label this player who is both a good receiver and a good blocker (a skillset which actually has two different parts of being a good pass protector AND being a good run blocker- these are two differing functions and a player can be good at one and not so foreboding on the other. The problem is that given the stark NEEDS the Bills have on the OL and also important needs which we have at OLB and maybe on the DL, it is already a question as to whether it is a smart football move for us to spend both a high level draft pick AND FA/trade resources to get the hybrid player we need to be a complete TE. I think you are demonstrably wrong in a couple of ways. ways. First, most teams operate without having a complete TE (not to mention the NEED to have a plan B which means having two complete TEs on your roster). True the offense would be far better with these complete TEs but there simply are not 64 examples of the complete player you say is a NECESSITY and in fact there are not even 32 examples of what you claim is a necessity so that each team in the league csn at least have one of these allegedly necessary elements. How do virtually all teams in the NFL operate without this necessity you claim a team must have (or given the lack of enough quality TEs to go around why is TE not the most expensive position in the NFL. The market simply says a good TE is great to have but it is not the necessity you portray. Second, your timeline is all wrong since even if the Bills could draft and train and train a talented rookie like a Pettigrew to be this pro hybrid you say is a necessity, it likely is going to be at least one and probably a couple of years until he gains the skills to be considered a complete TE (or are you willing to assert this rookie will contribute immediately). Are the Bills on a timeline which calls for them to make the playoffs for the first time this decade and if so how are the Bills set at this position you call a necessity and how much will we have to pay to get a starter and a credible back-up complete TEs?

In the big picture we are talking about chump change for TO with his overall wealth and new contract and we are talking about a # with no historic attachment for Hardy (for example if he had been #81 throughout his career or had a great year with his number being 81 last year. For both parties, either holding out for more cash or refusing to give up a little cash would have been penny-wise and pound foolish for either party.

I know this post may not fit the air tight thinking which informed the other indictments in this thread, but are there any reports as to where TO is. I know this is all about fact-free opinions but I am curious what the facts are regarding this situation. Its hard to tell what the facts are from press reports as there actually are relatively few facts to report. This is not an excused absence as actually no one even needs an excuse not to attend this voluntary workout. In fact what we do know from press reports is that actually only 40 players were in for these voluntary workouts. The total roster is probably below 80 as rookies will be added, but even with many of the stars here apparently it is amusing to see some folks get exercised over TO joining 25-30 other Bills in being no-shows. I doubt that TO already had a long scheduled visit to see a dying child in his hospital bed, but as he just got traded to the Bills it does not surprise me that he is not here. Without more real facts this is such a non-story.

I hope that we brought him in as a smoke screen to fool other teams and the pundits into thinking for sure we have a TE need when actually we are clearing the roster in anticipation of going with 3 WRs as our base offense. Right now we have zero (none, nada, blanco) TEs who are a proven NFL receiving threat. Fine has potential to receive well and maybe in a couple of years could be a real threat but for now we have nada. Even if we waste a 1st round choice reaching for Pettigrew or another rookie TE, odds are that this rookie is a season and more likely two or more from eventually becoming the TE we would want him to be. Even if we draft a TE number 1 and depend upon that player in our O (who most likely will not be ready to be depended upon, we would also need to spend cap money on an FA or bank on this rookie not only playing like a vet in his first year, but he better not pull a Fine and get hurt or we will be up a paddle much of the season/ I hope we do not go TE.

In part this is why I would prefer Bills go H-back rather than TE. It does give you the option pf having your H-back go more toward FB use when you choose to simply try to muscle up and try to run because it is late in the game and your best friend becomes burning clock. The 3 WR set is actually a running set for us as it stops the D from simply putting 7 or 8 guys in the box as they often seem to do against us. Particularly when you have the talents he has shown of never getting taken down by the first hit, if the D is spread and has trouble gang tackling him he is a threat to go long. I never saw the Beast in college but I understand that despite your concern about speed (an overblown concern IMHO as it is rare that any RB is simply running away from a crowd) he actually did well in 1 RB sets in college.

Agreed. This makes tons more sense that the notion of acquiring a TE with great downfield receiving ability who also is a proficient enough blocker that he not only keeps Edwards off his keister AND is a blocking talent for Lynch. Such triple talent players do exist. However, not only would the Bills need to find two of them or we are screwed if the starting TE goes down, but it often takes several years to develop a player who is proficient at all three of these aspects of NFL TE play. Royal struck me as a very good pass blocker, a pretty good run blocker, but really inconsistent as a receiving threat. Both Fine and Schoman are worse as far as the combination of pretty goods, adequates and inadequates go. Even the best of the available TEs (likely Pettigrew) will need at least a year until they are full contributors (and by that time TO is gone). I think we get better faster looking for an H-Back than a TE. A good TE is better than the best H-b, but 2 good TEs are harder to find that 2 adequate H-bs

Though some may have trouble wanting to admit it, Edwards is a great player (when he is in there) but the simple fact is he meets an objective standard this fan uses to label a player as injury prone. My standard is that when a player loses playing time 3 times in 2 seasons to injuries to different parts of his body I think they deserve the unfortunate label of being injury prone (they can be knocked out of the game not simply to a nagging injury which might be protected or avoided such as when Kelly wore a flak jacket, but have a body that comes down with serious ouchees to different parts of their bodies. In 2 scant years we have seen Edwards: 1. Miss PT due to an elbow injury which actually left him benched even after he healed because JP got on a winning streak in 07. 2. He missed a game in pre-season of 08 due to a different reported injury (I do not remember specifically what it was but it was not the elbow again). Particularly for a young QB developing chemistry with his teammates, missing even on game of pre-season is important. 3. He got knocked out with a concussion for several games last year. One could make the claim that technically the loss of PT in pre-season does not qualify as a true loss of PT as perhaps if it was not pre-season he would have played. Still, due to the import of pre-season to a new QB to the team and even to pro football (he had way less than a full season of starts at the time) relying on this is a mere technicality. He is no RJ yet (he was so injury prone one could not count on him as a starter despite his obvious talents) but one would have to be a fool not to simply assume at this point that your #2 QB is gonna be your #1 for at least 3 games this season if we are lucky.

After reviewing this thread it seems to be consistent with the factual nature of Graham's original premise. He has no (meaning zero, nada, nothing) information that the Bills are trying to move Parrish. IMHO, the Bills have a lot more to gain (in particular after the acquisition of TO for at least 1 season) from actually using Parrish's demonstrated football skills rather than trading him for a mere draft choice. After watching Parrish for 4 seasons this strikes me as his pluses and minuses: Great open field runner allows him to be one of the best PR guys for the Bills ever. He simply is a threat to take it to the house on every PR return. His big minus is that he is a small guy and durability is an issue. He went down with an injury in his first pre-season and then out for six weeks this past season with a broken thumb. Nevertheless, he has proved himself to be a tough player who has been very good at playing the slot position when the feebly designed Bills offense uses him in this role. Despite his injury he has not shied away from contract and has shown a willingness to catch the ball over the middle when asked to do so. Those who question his toughness need only look back to the Oakland game last season where he damaged his thumb and still scored a TD crucial to the win on a hot hard pass from Edwards AFTER he sustained the injury. Despite his small size, Parrish has shown a willingness and ability to deliver hits when used as a slot receiver and blocker. Add to that his great speed and he is also a threat to take it to the house (as he did in an NYJ game last year when our O is well designed enough to let him run one on one up the middle. Parrish and the Bills O stand to gain a lot from merely the presence of TO as opponents will have a tough time not trying to man up against Parrish as both Evans' speed and TO's RAC ability may demand 2 dts on the outside which will cause an opposing DC great difficulties with deciding how to cover Evans, and TO and Parrish when the Bills go 3 wide. The real beneficiary of TOs presence may well be Lynch as opponents will have little choice but to run a zone to figure out how to cover our three wideouts. In 3 WR sets Lynch will end up running against a D which may be force into nickel and dime coverage and this RB who rarely goes down from the first hit will be facing Os spread wide and deep to play the zone. It will be a challenge for Turk as he has shown no ability to design routes which allow for a lot of separation for Evans or uses picks and slant patterns to create some separation for our WRs. Many of us rabid fans blinded with the glitz of the Mel Kiperesque over-promotion of the draft and being devoted to our fantasy league teams put far more value in the NFL draft than is warranted for a GM. Good players tend to get drafted and thus the draft is a direct and obvious choice for those of us with the benefits of the simplified more than enough great players that a fantasy league brings. However, within the real world constraints of the modern NFL team it is only a 50/50 plus a little proposition that a player drafted in the first round is even going to prove to be a starter at his position starting his second year. For the modern NFL team GM, the draft is great for building depth and finding future stars, but is little more than a 50/50 proposition for finding immediate help. The fans who are willing to trade one of the best ST guys in football for a mere second day pick and even those willing to trade a two-time Pro Bowl LT for 2 late first round picks (even with the addition of a third non-first round pick simply are putting way too much value in the draft. The Bills have a remote chance of making the playoffs in 09 even with Peters. We essentially have no chance of making it with 2 OL draft picks trying to fill the void trading this vet would create. Trading Parrish would be a weenie move.

I think a lot of this dispute comes down to the ultimately unanswerable question of whether Peters would have helped get to the ultimate goal of a new contract by holding out or playing under his current contract and being a solid citizen and the Bills would reward him appropriately. Actually I think real answer is of course somewhere in between the two extremes (though ironically as bad as some folks judge Peters action there is a more extreme version of mercenary player action embodied in the Joey Galloway approach). My sense is it would be nice if the Bills were such good folk that they would reward benevolence, but I think like many on TSW who react screw him they are businessfolk whom caveat emptor is the only reasonable reaction. Even worse with their cave in to Schobel over his hissy fit and their stupid contract with Kelsay they have shown there can be advantage to taking them on.