May Day 10

Still waiting for you or anyone to refute his points.

Schopp is an interesting guy. He doesnt pretend to be a jock or former jock. He admits as much. Collecting, history, and baseball are his wheelhouse. These things, by orders of his superiors are not to be talked about on WGR during his show, so he is basically not speaking in his comfort zone. The Hobby is a joy to listen to. The tired format of WGR, rehashing the same subjects over and over, and taking the same idiot callers after idiot callers. How many times can they talk about the Bills' QB situation. Its probably been the main topic on at least 30% of the shows in 2013. I cannot blame him for sounding like an impatient douche towards a lot of the callers. I would too. His sidekick is basically another one of these callers so he doesn't help things along at all. I also think to some degree his superiors encourage him to act this way. WGR is terrible sports talk radio. I love Bull's show on 1270. It is so refreshing to hear a local sports show cover topics outside the Bills and Sabres. I love the Bills/Sabres, but you just cant cover them with 100% of your content.

Event tickets are a completely different animal now. Perceived sellouts and increased resale value, along with the Internet drive ticket sales. Like someone mentioned. Compare the bad years of the 8th attendance with now. Now you factor in 13000 less seats, plus 15% from rochester, and 15% from ontario. I have little doubt that, at these prices, they would need to cap season tickets and the sth would gobble up most of the box office tickets for friends and resale. And no, I don't believe we are the greatest fans or anything. We are a decent sports market whose actual size is constantly understated, with a good deal of bandwagoners hiding in the woodwork. Let's hope the bills test all this out

Why did they have to play games in Milwaukee when they sucked? How about kc last season compared to this year? Same with Washington in reverse... Remember when new Orleans was in danger of relocation just before they became good?

I was hoping to see 2 hot chicks. Instead we get the equivalent of Kathy Bates and Melissa McCarthy

I would like to see an actual, unbiased, scientific study on this. Personally, the television status has no bearing on me going or not going. Especially these late season throw-away games I wonder how many people a blackout (or threatening blackout) moves from the couch to the ticket booth. Especially with all the online feeds, redzone channel, interest in other games due to fantasy/pools/gambling, etc... There has to be a tangible reason the NFL wants to protect this. Maybe they just want to keep the option on the table in their court.

going back to the original intent of the thread, the issue is broken down into a series of questions: Do you believe the Bills are in a "Plight"? Do you believe Ralph Wilson was muddling and preventing upper management from building a winner correctly all the way to the age of 94? Do you believe Russ Brandon has any "say" in the football department, and if so, what degree? Do you take the public image/words of OBD at face value? I do believe all of these things have reasonable points and counter-points on all sides of the argument. With me, I am always very skeptical of what comes out of OBD, and I have lost all/most of my trust with them. I do see a pattern of scapegoating guys like Donahoe, Levy, Jauron, Modrak, Guy, Gailey... and most lately, Wilson offered himself. "He was a Jauron guy" or "Levy set this franchise back 5 years". They may not outwardly say that, but they know large pieces of the fan base buy in. Each time they do this (go in a "new" direction), the seats at upper management stay the same/shift one step to the left. I truly believe that is a reason Nix festered around awhile like he did. If EJ, the 2013 draft class, or Marrone flame out, Nix will be the guy no longer in the room to blame. Upper Management consists of Brandon, Overdorf, and Littman, with Whaley now assuming Nix's role. These guys are good and experienced at preserving a very predictable take for Mr. Wilson and it is in their best interest to keep the fans at bay, while Mr. Wilson collects the profit each year. They do want to win, but that is secondary, which is their right, but that is how 14 year playoff droughts happen. The entire conversation is a waste of time anyways because nobody North of Whaley is ever getting fired by Mr. Wilson. I admit I do like the 2013 draft (as long as they don't pass up a QB they like in order to "protect" the Manuel decision), I like the Marrone hire, and the Sheppard/Hughes trade. Im not too upset over the Levitre situation and like the Wood re-signing. I do however disagree with everything regarding the handling of Byrd.

its all good. Im just tapped out with the discussion as I said all I got and was just repeating in a circle (regarding Brandon, attendance, Toronto)

I dont even know what defines a good/great coach any more. Its all about catching lightning in a bottle. Ron Rivera was coveted, he was hired, did OK, lost 2 games this season, was on the hot seat, the Panthers started winning, and now he is great again. Marrone can do fine I think. I do like his attitude where he takes actual blame and admits he needs to learn/get better. I do think the Shanahans, Grudens, Cowhers of the world are probably too stuck in their ways and wont adapt to current times (both the sport as well as the personalities).

This is not true. Erie County's population has declined about 5% since then, and as an also, Southern Ontario's population has grown. sorry, Ill go away again

Im a STH and Im not going. Im over going to meaningless games after Thanksgiving.

I dont think WNY is and should be considered a market below the NFL. If we say/admit that, they are as good as gone. If we are talking in terms of "maxing" out with full PSLs, Billion Dollar Stadium, and Suites, sure, we are at the bottom of the league. The team can still survive here. New Orleans was the ghetto of the league, it looked like relocation would happen and they couldnt support the team, they became good, and they exploded and are now regarded as one of the best fanbases. I do believe that if the Bills became a relevant team and were in the running for Division Titles, possible home playoff games, etc we would have no trouble selling out the stadium and they would be able to begin raising seat prices. Ill step out of this thread after this post because (as usual) nobody is changing their opinion.

For the reasons I outlined that were ignored, the early 90s provides zero indication of how ticket sales would be today if they fielded a winner. Every one of those games would have sold out the current stadium anyways, with the exception of the Raiders game that was the coldest game in NFL history. "Regionalization" and the Toronto Series are not the same thing. Regionalization happened well before the Toronto series, and those games are a terrible representation of the Bills and NFL (But that has been hashed over too many times in other threads). Winning would improve Regionalizing efforts tenfold over this Series. The Series is only a lump sum cash grab for Mr Wilson (cant blame him), and a dress rehearsal for Toronto to one day move the Bills there (cant blame them). Shouldnt this drive a Bills fan nuts? that the President of the team who is supposed to kiss fans (customers) asses, force us into this discussion about how "worthy" we are in the face of nearly record-breaking futility? The excuses and spin are always provided by the team, but when it comes to the fans, we dont get the same treatment. The mere fact that they have to point to 20 years ago as an example where the fans wont show up to support a winner is pathetic in of itself. And "leaving the area" was perhaps poorly worded on my part. I guess I meant "playing home game(s) out of the area". I did not make that up, and anyone who has heard Brandon speak will back up the fact that these are his talking points. As a STH who is still a fan through all this (face it, anyone still posting here is as legit a fan as they come), it is a punch in the gut each time he does this. My friends who are in the same boat as me feel the same way. Here at TBD seems to be the only place fans take everything the team says at face value as if its gold. All teams/franchises spin to appease fans. Are we really supposed to believe a 94 year old Ralph Wilson was preventing Brandon, Littman, Overdorf, Nix, Whaley, etc from fielding an awesome team, and now Wilson has "stepped away" and given the keys to these guys and suddenly everything is going to be top shelf? There was a time that you could have told me that Buffalo could never sell out The Aud/Marine Midland/HSBC, let alone for 41 games. In the 90s, as we like to cite, even in the LaFontaine/Mogilny year they could only get 13K people there. Like I mentioned earlier, I remember walking up and buying game 6 tickets to a Montreal series as well as a Bruins one. Present day, add in a couple decent teams, followed by a perceived demand for tickets. Waiting list plus they have raised ticket prices quite a bit.

Well I know he said it on December 4th on wgr

It is wrong to say the team needs to leave the area to remain viable after 200 million dollars are handed to them and they haven't delivered in what's going on 2 decades. Every time he does that interview he alludes to that as well as their difficulty to sell out games. Each time he says this, he points to the early 90s, which implies that even if they were good we wouldn't show up. 90's are not relevant Stub hub resales/everybody is a broker Internet insta-sales Regionalization hadn't occurred. Those blackout attendance totals would fill the current stadium and then some. Nfl popularity has gone through the roof Visiting fans are better travelled. Also I recall the sabres ' playoffs of the early 90s we were able to walk up and buy oranges the day of. Post 2000, forget about it. Playoff tickets are gobbled up well in advance now.

I have been beating the same drum for years and expressed fury here on tbd as the "changes" happened last january.

lol. Comparing Brandon's position to that of a janitor or secretary isnt building a straw man? This is just going in circles with me. The bottom line is the discussion is a waste of time until A. The team has a new owner and they move or B. The team has a new owner and they clean house Until then, I just dont see this team getting pulled from the mud. I can kind of see where this is going: 2014 no QB is taken EJ flounders a bit, written off as his true rookie season as he was injured too much in 2013. Maybe some injuries to sweeten the pot. 2015 EJ doesnt improve, team still has 5 wins, EJ and Marrone shipped out, both pinned on Nix. Brandon and Whaley have another chance to start fresh 2016 See 2013 Trust me, I hope Im wrong, and will give credit to Brandon if they turn this around next year. Ive just seen this movie play out too many times. Around the league, teams go up and down quickly. It shouldnt be this difficult.

If they feel very strongly about (say Manziel for instance) and have reservations about Manuel... I hope they nab him in the 1st round. That would be a bold move.

Im good with Murray or Mettenburger in the 3rd if available. That way they can rehab, sit there, learn the NFL, EJ can play and see if he can blossom. If he doesnt, we have a prospect ready to go that isnt a complete newborn

Didnt Nix hire Marrone? He was the GM.

I think you are both right. Brandon goes on his big spiel about how winning at all costs, all resources, etc. Then his first moves are extending the Toronto series (which does sacrifice some degree of competitive edge), and also the Fitzpatrick salary deferment to the 2014 cap.

You dont think more is possible? They used to sell over 80,000 tickets a game. Even the "non-sellouts" were 10,000 more tickets sold than current capacity. And now we have the benefit of all this awesome and successful "regionalism". Your not around here, but when the team has one of their hot starts, my phone blows up with people asking me where to find tickets (Im in a group with STs). I look on stubhub for them and you can find anything <$100. I cant think of a fan base that would perpetually sellout with this many listless consecutive seasons (and looking at who knows how many more)... in any sport. Look at the Redskins. Their attendance is putrid one year after a great season I would kill for (and keep me energized for another decade). Pittsburgh is another one. Nobody is showing up now that they arent front-running. Brandon throwing the failures of his team on the fans is a slap in the face (as a loyal STH). He does not go anywhere out of his way to thank or show appreciation to the fans... at least on a regular basis. We hear more about our inadequacies.

... but only marketing though

Those are the two examples of overzealous, overinvolved, unqualified, over-egotistical owners. There are about 30 teams who have been able to figure it out. The Bills and the Browns for some reason cant. 14 years without making the playoffs in a league where almost 40% of the teams make it is not excusable and is almost a statistical impossibility. Also factor in that they have only been close 1 time, and that was after a terrible start and made possible by playing every bad team in the NFL in succession. All these bad decisions you name, and really no accountability (since Donahoe's firing). The answer is always to fire whatever inadequate head coach is in place, ask whatever curmudgeon they have sitting as the GM to resign, promote Russ Brandon more and shuffle chairs around a bit. Then the result is more false hope and false optimism, followed by more of the same.

He is fine. He has put an unprecedented amount of resources toward growing the franchise in scouting and facilities. They are doing the right thing right now that will pay off. His big error was to trust the guys who were already spinning their tires and stale. As a Sabres fan, I couldnt be happier he is the owner. I also dont need to look over my shoulder anymore worried the team is going to leave. That is a buzz-kill. Just look at the Sabres' crowds during the bankrupcy years when it looked like relocation was imminent.