ColdBlueNorth

Saw Spiller gimpy, but missed EJ getting hurt. Will have to listen to Marrone's comments.

I think he hits the deep throws when they are there and he has time, but the past few teams have taken that away keeping both safeties back and playing mostly 2-deep zone. If nothing else, teams seem to have respect for Manuel's deep ball and Goodwin and Graham's speed. Teams also saw how poorly he fared against the Steelers when they played mostly a 2-deep zone defense against him so until he can show consistent success against it, and the Bills prove they can run against it, other teams are going to use it more. That defense forces a more dink and dunk game with a heavy dose of running which we gave the Jags. All this talk about EJ, and I am more concerned lately with how teams are able to convert 3rd and long against our D, and gash it for huge chunks of yards rushing...

Just thought it was a bit over the top and funny - still do BTW. Not fishing for compliments from you, but you can feel free to agree or disagree with my posts - its all good.

I did not say you were emotional about this particular topic, OCD maybe. However, we can use this topic as your game-deciding Superbowl kick - you are either on target, or wide right. I will add your most derogatory EJ evaluation to my signature line for posterity. You will either look like a rock star down the road and I will have to bear the burden of having your accurate opinion tattooed onto my posts for as long as you feel it is needed (got a feeling it would be there forever), or if I am right you will have a regular reminder that a few of your Mensa-like assessments do not pan out. With all the odds stacked up against EJ (most rookie QB's don't pan out), how can you pass up a friendly bet like this.... fair enough?

Spot on. One area of weakness in EJ's game that the facts support is his 3rd down conversion percentage... it is pretty low. As the offense of the Bills often find themselves in 3rd and LONG it is also quite common for teams to send an extra man as we saw when the Jags brought Mikell on a corner blitz hitting EJ from behind forcing the fumble. Recognizing when teams are likely to send the extra man, being able to recognize where the blitz is coming from, and to make teams pay for it, is all part of the learning curve and a coaching challenge for the Bills.

Who's arguing? Butt-hurt? From you disagreeing with my opinion earlier in the thread - seriously? I was just commenting on someone's ridiculous statement, "Badol is one of the smartest posters on this or any football board. You know it. Everyone knows it.". I mean, c'mon...that is some funny stuff as clearly not "Everyone" agrees with that sentiment. Sure, you have had some good insights and I have even enjoyed reading the emotional outbursts, but you have had your share of wide-rights just like the rest of us who have been here for longer than we care to admit. Not sure what you mean by "If that's all you got". I have already stated my reasons in other posts for thinking that Manuel has the tools to become a solid QB, why rehash my own opinions when I believe that the only way to make more informed observations on whether he is progressing or regressing as a QB is to revisit this next year when he has more games under his belt. You have obviously made up your mind, so what's the point of arguing with you? You do not seem to be the type of person that will change their opinion by simply engaging in more argument, so why waste my time providing more arguments? Mike Williams was undone by KFC... the dude could not get down to playing weight which made him too slow and I believe he even tipped the scales at over 400 pounds at one point in his brief and dismal NFL career.

This... and wow when did this board turn into such a troll magnet? Haven't posted in a few weeks and I come back to find a ton of noobs spouting the same negative non-sense and sucking the joy out of a winnable game that the Bills usually find a way to lose.

Good post, as usual. Too bad for SJ - I dinged him on an earlier post and did not know the family situation. Tough to get back in the saddle when that happens, but that event can cause a heavy dose of self-reflection and maturation for a young man. Time will tell how Stevie deals with his tragedy, but a tough all-around year for #13.

Too funny Tom:)

I believe Gannon... I believe he forgets that he joined the league in 87 and was not given a starting QB role till 92 under "Denny" Green. He was a decent scrambler in his day but did not have the greatest numbers in relief when he was a rookie. With time and patience, he developed into a fine mobile QB who was really good at spreading the ball around and finding the open man and went on to have a great career. He has come to my kid's HS in Minnesota to sign shirts and such for charity - he's a good man. We have both been around for a while and we will see how this plays out. It is easy for me to be pessimistic, but something about the way this kid has pushed the ball down the field in tight games has me thinking he may have what it takes if he can stay healthy and if he is given the time and coaching he needs to become better. Next year by this time either you are right and we are once again searching for the next Kelly, or we find that the kid does have a higher ceiling than we have seen, he is getting faster recognizing defenses, faster in his reads, and more confident stepping into his throws. We need some improvement along the offensive line regardless of who is behind center and I am not sure if Spiller has the durability to be that every-down back. I do like that they keep a FB around in Summers, I have always liked having a bruiser in the backfield who can block on short yardage, tote the rock when folks are trying to avoid his blocks and pick up the tough yards himself, or take the occasional swing or screen pass when needed. He plays a position that is just about eliminated in the NFL, but he just seems like a good, hard-nosed football player who tries hard to help his team.

My theory is that he is a rookie QB who takes some time to digest what the defense is showing him and rushes his early throws, then settles down and plays. The encouraging thing that I see from this kid is that in close games, he seems to be clutch in his ability to drive the ball down the field. If anything, there is a slew of veterans on this team that have let the rookie down dropping or fumbling away throws that were on the money in games that mattered like the one against Atlanta. I will give this kid a pass on his slow starts.

Yeah. And where are our consolation points for being dinged up for most all of the first half of the year, playing scrubs in the secondary, rookies at WR, and any QB we could pick up off the streets? Any win is a good win in my book. At this point I am more concerned with the consistency of our run defense up front and it's tendency to get gashed for big chunks of yardage. I think we still need a legitimate big 2-gap run stuffer to play along side Dareus or over center. Kyle is more of a 3 technique guy who is a pretty disruptive pass rushing and maybe he and Mario rotate in on more obvious passing downs.

I am not hitching the wagon up to EJ alone and saying the search is over, and I think the FO should bring in legitimate competition for the QB position. I am not sure you spend another 1st to do that as there are other needs on this team and if nothing else EJ is big and serviceable and more often than not, he takes care of the ball. Competition is necessary and good at any position. I do not buy the "slow eyes" and similar comments I hear about the rookie - and in case folks think I am being a homer on this EJ was not the QB I wanted the Bills to draft. My QB was that big, tough, pocket passing kid from Miami Ohio that went in the 7th to Denver, but is sitting behind a hall of famer out there. But I do see signs that he can be better than just average and where folks say that he has slow eyes, I just see a normal rookie who is told to protect the ball; who is being very careful about where he places it and is a bit slow and unsure of what defenses are giving him. So in other words, I see a normal rookie development and progression. As far as EJ's measurables for thinking on his feet and accuracy this was posted earlier this year and I see no reason to think that the numbers or stats were fudged to make him appear better than he is. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9749030/buffalo-bills-qb-ej-manuel-stats-charts-espn-magazine I am sure he misses some throws, but I have also seen plenty of confusion by the receivers with two or more receivers ending up in the same spot on the field, running into each other, cutting off routes early. Woods seems one of the most polished out there and he is a rookie - that kid is a keeper.

Good lord folks. The kid is a rookie who does not even have a full year under his belt - patience much? As he learns to read defenses better he feet will settle down and he will hit those wide open receivers and from what I saw today there was a concerted effort to keep running the ball. A good plan that kept the Jax defense from teeing off and limited the bad throws into coverage. And we won.

Thanks...trying hard this season to ride out the inevitable ups and downs and stay level headed. Been a fan too long to fall into that - probably wont change to another team ever so what else can you do?

EJ is a smart, athletic QB with a strong arm, but raw. That was the book on him coming out of college, and missing games with injuries did not help the development process. All that being said, it should be pretty easy for Hackett to know what he needs to focus on for EJ. The worst performances that EJ has had has come against Pittsburgh and then Tampa both utilizing 2-deep packages zone and man. Hackett needs to coach up Manuel's pre-snap reads for 2-deep zone and 2-deep man and create game plans that take advantage of either of those scenarios. If it is zone then dig routes underneath, working the weak flat, or using flood routes overloading the shallow zones, if it is man they should be able to hit the slot, and exploit the mismatch against the tight end, with either there should be running lanes so they need to stick with the running game. If nothing else the running game slows down a pass rush. The biggest thing for EJ is patience, and the same goes for fans who like to see the long ball. The best places to attack a cover 2 is going to be in the flats or shallow inside seams, an offense generally does not light up a 2-deep defense for huge plays down field. The best way to get a defense out of their two deep set is successfully running the ball on first and second downs, convincing the DC that he has to bring one or both of the safeties up, sell the play action (always) and attack the cover zero. Keys for game: Our defense needs to stop the early score and take some of the pressure off of our young QB. Hackett has to scout and game plan better and make better half-time adjustments. The offense looked woefully under prepared last week. EJ has to be patient and take what the defense gives him. The offensive line simply has to be better picking up twists and stunts; we need better protection when teams bring a 5th man on the rush (Tampa did not have to blitz that much to generate pressure and push) and the offensive line needs to open more holes for our backs. The backs have to be better picking up blitzing LB, S, CBs - that means that Spiller does not just dance out of the pocket waving his arms begging for the dump pass but rather he mans-up and actually gets in the way of a pass-rushing defender. The Bills have to stick with the run game plan regardless. Perhaps start out with two tight ends to dictate tempo and defensive alignment. Out of that jumbo formation you can run it, hit either TE in the flat, and throw in the occasional fullback or halfback outlet pass. Some may think that trying to run an up-tempo passing offense with a rookie QB is a good way to get him killed. The best thing they can do for EJ (in my opinion) is design the offense to start the game with a max protect extra TE and let him get some rhythm and confidence then gradually open up the playbook as you see what the defense is going to give you and the game progresses. Receivers need to hang on to the ball, and in clutch situations stay away from #13.

Jeez folks calm down... EJ has not laced them up against live action in 4 weeks, he is a rookie and frankly the O-line did not do him any favors today. EJ was rusty on his passes yeah, but something resembling a running game would have helped him a lot. With the drive starts we had at the beginning of the game this team has to be able to run the ball. The team was playing in Pittsburgh so did anyone think we were going to get any calls going our way like when Goodwin got mugged for the "interception" to seal the game... Obviously, they need some improvements along that offensive line to establish the run, and EJ needs to get better throwing the ball. If the playoffs are not in the works then they need to take the training wheels off the cart and let EJ throw it - interceptions be-damned. If Woods is healthy, I would stake our receiving core of Woods, Goodwin, and Easley against the competition and throw it up and let them fight or outrun their man for it. There is no point in conservatism at this stage of his development, and you do not need to worry about salvaging a season that was unlikely to produce a winning record. Let the boys play.

Pittsburgh is a veteran team with an established QB that has had a history of pulling out wins when needed although they have struggled this year. We are a young team that has more of a history of finding ways to lose. This year's record aside, it is going to take a season or two of sustained quality play and wins to change that perception. My personal take is that Mario Williams is one of the few defensive ends in the league who has both the size, strength, and athleticism to really disrupt the way Roethlisberger plays. Big Ben tends to roll to his right to extend plays, although he is pretty shifty around the pocket for a guy his size. I would expect that the Bills would try to flush him out to Williams side of the field more often than not. Roethlisberger gets away with the way he plays for a couple reasons, for a guy who doesn't have the largest hands one would think he would fumble more, but his height and strength negate much of that issue he also usually wears a glove, he can extend plays to the last possible moment because his release is one of the quickest and strongest I have seen - with a flick he can rope the ball down the field. Mario has the length and strength to chop the rock lose or at least mess up his throwing motion. I think we can get turnovers in this game, and if our boys turn those into points we will win.

Consistent QB play.. is EJ the answer? O-Line Protection for QB... upgrade at left Guard, and more consistent play from Glenn (he has the ability, just needs to keep developing and playing at a high level) - More depth, the Bills are awfully thin across the line with quality depth. Defensive Backs - you can never have enough of these guys and lock-down corners are the bread and butter of Pettin's cover-0 pressure schemes. FedEx isn't getting any younger and Spiller's durability as the feature back seems to be questionable... finding a nice bruising tailback in the later rounds for depth and to bring along would be wise. Quality Tight End... and TE depth - these guys get beat up pretty badly and you need to have a few on your roster. I would still like to see another 2-gap, wide-body d-tackle that can spell Dareus or lineup alongside him on more obvious rushing downs.

I feel like Graham has had more opportunities and meh... I would like to see what the rookie has if we had a QB that could launch the ball far enough and accurately enough. Graham could serve on kickoffs.

I thought JP had all the tools and just needed a better line and running game. I was also excited about the more obscure Corey Moore out of Virginia Tech who I thought was a steal where the Bills got him in the draft. The kid was a bit of a tweener, but he had broke Bruce Smith's college sack record and was a ferocious pass rusher in college, but there were concerns he was too light for the prototypical D-End back then. The Bills tried him at outside linebacker and I thought they would have him put his hand on the ground and develop into that outside edge rusher they lacked, but he would get swallowed up at times by blockers. Unfortunately, he was not given much of a chance to break the Bills lineup and ended up getting into trouble off the field as well. To this day I am not sure if he was given enough time to develop, he certainly was not given the amount of time and leash 1st round bust Maybin was given. I think that Bills organization of seasons gone by was much quicker about jettisoning or not resigning players that they did not like or felt had little left in the tank or would cost more $$ to retain than Ralph was willing to pay (Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Winfield, Clements, etc...). They were wrong of course about a lot of those decisions, so I am not sure if they were also wrong about that kid. I don't like punks and he got into legal trouble off the field, so maybe it was for the best.

Levitre is a good serviceable guard who would be an upgrade over our current left guard prospects, but not at elite guard money. C'mon folks, Marrone was a journeyman lineman in the NFL and you don't think he had a say in the matter? Levitre had a chance to cash in his chips for a desparate team willing to pay top dollar for reliable if unspectacular talent. If Brown or the other scrub cannot elevate their play, they will find a serviceable guard next year - there is no way we were going all the way to the promised land in one year's worth of rebuilding and the tools they did put in the toolbox via the draft have looked pretty good so far - no matter what those expert draft pundits thought of the moves.

EJ has to learn to just take what the defense gives him when he runs and either slide if he is inbounds, or step out of bounds if he is at the sideline... the 2 extra yards is not worth the potential career ending hits on the knee, or the time out rehabbing injuries. Don't know if I am ready to say that McGahee had a big game against our run D... our offense and special teams gave the browns excellent field position and it took him something like 6 attempts (courtesy of illegal contact called on our defense) to gain a whole 5 yards or so and barely break the goal line on their 3rd and 2. I am not too high or low on Williams - the unnecessary roughness penalty called on him that extended a Browns drive was a joke as he leaped at the receiver when the ball was still in the air and was trying to force a drop (are they telling defensive backs to wait for a clean catch and then hit the receiver?). And he was in single coverage on some perfectly thrown balls and drew the assignment of going up against a pretty good receiver in Josh Gordon that has toasted some decent starting DBs this year. And yes, Gordon often got a step on him creating that separation and Williams lacks some of the ability to turn and stay with a receiver without giving up ground. On that endzone catch I would have liked to have seen him swat the ball down, not tip it up - but the kid laid out to try to stop a play and he is filling in and trying to step up for a rather decimated secondary so why kick him now? At safety, being able to anticipate, play off the line a bit, and take good angles on receivers, use his closing speed and hitting - he should flourish. I love the way our d-line played early, but I did feel that they let up in the second half and gave Weeden too much time to setup and get comfortable. The TD toss to Gordan seemed to have the cautionary effect of dropping more support to the secondary and less blitzes were being dialed up - particualarly up the middle where they would have been effective at stopping the run and preventing Weeden from stepping into his throws (that is not the nature of this defense and they need to play to their nature regardless of the few miscues). Was it unfair that our offense was running the hurry-up and going 3-out in record time, yes; That being said, the solution for our D was to dictate 3 and outs to the Browns. It is just a hard fact that for this team to win the offense is going to need the defense to do the heavy lifting for them. Our defense is executing far better than our offense at this stage of the game and they are just going to have to suck it up till the offense finds their groove. The good news is that the defense should get quite a shot in the arm when they get Gilmore back and Williams can once again man the safety position. Gilmore is the one DB you can likely trust in cover 0 bump and run, while Williams can lean his support towards stopping the other teams number 2 or TE. The good news on offense is as long as EJ is not out for too long the future looks pretty good, particularly with a long week off for Jackson and Spiller to get closer to 100%. We should probably get Marquise Goodwin back as well and he is a serious special teams threat and is that speedster that we have in Graham, but with much better hands. I think Goodwin had a serious shot at getting that starting role before his injury. Let's not get too up or down this year folks. It's hard, but take the longer view on the talented youth that has been brought in and how they are going to shape the Bills of the future. I did not expect Superbowl this year, nor even playoffs - just a competetive team that shows signs of improvement - most of the games we have lost with our decimated roster have been pretty close. If this last draft is any indication - next year should be the year we take that big step in the right direction.

All due to a transporter malfunction. Now the good "Pats" team has to force the bad NE Patriots team back on the transporter pad to fix the whole mess:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WzW4GR6sClM