Drew Brees Took The "Old Fashioned 5 Years"...

[H2o]

No I don't have any issues with your argument. I'm just sick of seeing that word spelled wrong on this board and thought I'd clear it up. Again, nothing personal.

No hard feelings my friend.

[downunderbill]

Trent is an accurate passer and his arm strength is not the problem. His problem is having the patience to let the deeper routes develope

 

Doesn't that depend on how much time he is given? TE hasn't had the best protection early in his career.

[downunderbill]

Sheesh i was doing it too..Thanks for the heads up.And I'm a language snob to boot.

 

What about punctuation?

 

"Sheesh, I was doing it too, Thank's for the heads up. And I'm a language snob to boot."

[lets_go_bills]

Trent is an accurate passer and his arm strength is not the problem. His problem is having the patience to let the deeper routes develope and trusting that his receivers will make it to the opening that WILL be there. That extra half second can make all the world of difference, but that comes with time and building a chemistry with the guys on the field. He has to trust that the line is going to protect him, he has to trust that the WR is going to run the correct route, and he has to trust himself that he can get the ball there. I think Trent has shown major improvement thus far and against a 3-4 defense right out the gate.

 

Excellent points! I agree with this 100% and have always felt that Trent is "the guy". He just needs a little more time and some good coaching/mentoring and he will develop into a great QB.

 

He has already shown he is accurate and demonstrates great poise in the pocket. He just needs to develop better chemistry with his receivers. He needs to realize he has a top-3 receiving tandem and trust them and go to them. He needs to show consistency too.

 

Trent has the tools to be a great QB.

[PDaDdy]

You just said he's one of the few to do that..so how would Edwards? Edwards could do the exact same thing Brees has and his arm might not imporve at all since it is RARE like you said. And the arm strength argument is really getting old...he has it watch this last weeks game again he has plenty of arm.

 

WRONG!!!! I did watch last weeks games and I saw under thrown deep balls. What is getting REALLY old is people trying to defend his arm strength!!! You don't need to be able to throw a football through a wall to be a good NFL QB. Trent could end up being our starter for MANY years and do a great job at it, but PLEASE, stop saying he has a strong arm!!! He doesn't! He throws rainbows down field that are generally under thrown not LASERS like the big boys. There are weaker arms than Trent's but there are several more that are stronger.

[PDaDdy]

Trent is an accurate passer and his arm strength is not the problem. His problem is having the patience to let the deeper routes develope and trusting that his receivers will make it to the opening that WILL be there. That extra half second can make all the world of difference, but that comes with time and building a chemistry with the guys on the field. He has to trust that the line is going to protect him, he has to trust that the WR is going to run the correct route, and he has to trust himself that he can get the ball there. I think Trent has shown major improvement thus far and against a 3-4 defense right out the gate.

 

There is some truth to what you say. I feel that this rehashed argument comes down to two camps for the people that know anything. Timing vs arm strength. Some like myself say that he doesn't have a strong arm. Some say he throws the ball late. TRUE if he did throw the ball earlier and trust his WR he would be better at hitting them in stride at the distance that his arm IS capable of.

 

I am personally in the "not strong" arm camp because I constantly hear how Trent is so smart, makes quick decisions and gets the ball out quickly. WEEELLLLLLLL if this is really the case then how can throwing the ball late and timing be his issue? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Trent being a smart, quick decisions maker who gets the ball out quickly but doesn't have a strong arm and throws short makes more sense as those two statements don't contradict each other.

[H2o]

There is some truth to what you say. I feel that this rehashed argument comes down to two camps for the people that know anything. Timing vs arm strength. Some like myself say that he doesn't have a strong arm. Some say he throws the ball late. TRUE if he did throw the ball earlier and trust his WR he would be better at hitting them in stride at the distance that his arm IS capable of.

 

I am personally in the "not strong" arm camp because I constantly hear how Trent is so smart, makes quick decisions and gets the ball out quickly. WEEELLLLLLLL if this is really the case then how can throwing the ball late and timing be his issue? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Trent being a smart, quick decisions maker who gets the ball out quickly but doesn't have a strong arm and throws short makes more sense as those two statements don't contradict each other.

I don't think he makes all the right decisions back there just yet. At times I think he still gets flustered and looks to get the ball out as quickly as possible so he doesn't take hits like he did from Adrian Wilson. Sometimes he stands in there so he can deliver the ball like he did against TB. He is still a little erratic on occasion. Prime example is the INT thrown when he tried to hit the seam route to Evans last week. I still think he's shown improvement over last year though, but still has a ways to go before he can even be considered top 10 in the league. Is his arm strength out of this world? No. Is it good enough if he gets his timing down with our WR's, reads the defense correctly, and gets the ball out there? Definitely. I've seen him throw a football 50-60 yards in the air on occasion. What more do you need than that? Jamarcus Russell likely has the strongest arm in the league and Losman had a cannon, but neither of them have the composure and pocket presence that Trent has displayed at times. Like I said previously, if the guy can get comfortable with the ones blocking for him, have the needed chemistry with the people out there catching the ball for us, and trust himself he will be the best QB we've had since Kelly hung up his shoulder pads for the last time, not to mention one of the 10 best QB's in this league.

[Ever Since '86]

Trent is an accurate passer and his arm strength is not the problem. His problem is having the patience to let the deeper routes develope and trusting that his receivers will make it to the opening that WILL be there. That extra half second can make all the world of difference, but that comes with time and building a chemistry with the guys on the field. He has to trust that the line is going to protect him, he has to trust that the WR is going to run the correct route, and he has to trust himself that he can get the ball there. I think Trent has shown major improvement thus far and against a 3-4 defense right out the gate.

 

 

you sir, hit on the head

[bowery4]

Good QBs still take time to develop. Check Eli Manning, 4 years before it clicked. Brady you could easily say at least 2 (his arm strength was blah in those years too). I think teams that throw young qbs in have the right system in place or an over the top QB talent. Big Ben was all about system in his first (Superbowl) year. Flacco and Ryan might be the over the top but they also have very solid offensive lines and talent around them.

The game has changed and I think you see many teams players in the first year learn on the job more (whether this is because of FA or better more pro scheems in college ball, or a combo each)

Trent is doing well, if he stays healthy I except he will continue to do so. A 400 yard game with this talent around him would go a long way towards his getting to be a true star in the league.

BTW Rex Ryan is doing a good job with Sanchez and they are going to cause us some problems this year.

[PDaDdy]

I don't think he makes all the right decisions back there just yet. At times I think he still gets flustered and looks to get the ball out as quickly as possible so he doesn't take hits like he did from Adrian Wilson. Sometimes he stands in there so he can deliver the ball like he did against TB. He is still a little erratic on occasion. Prime example is the INT thrown when he tried to hit the seam route to Evans last week. I still think he's shown improvement over last year though, but still has a ways to go before he can even be considered top 10 in the league. Is his arm strength out of this world? No. Is it good enough if he gets his timing down with our WR's, reads the defense correctly, and gets the ball out there? Definitely. I've seen him throw a football 50-60 yards in the air on occasion. What more do you need than that? Jamarcus Russell likely has the strongest arm in the league and Losman had a cannon, but neither of them have the composure and pocket presence that Trent has displayed at times. Like I said previously, if the guy can get comfortable with the ones blocking for him, have the needed chemistry with the people out there catching the ball for us, and trust himself he will be the best QB we've had since Kelly hung up his shoulder pads for the last time, not to mention one of the 10 best QB's in this league.

 

We're all seeing the same thing I guess but just come up with different interpretations. The seam route he tried to hit Evans on a great example. He doesn't have that deep ball down the middle. Anything he throws deep is to the outside.

 

1) Yes Trent can throw 50 - 60 yards in the air via a high arching rainbow pass not a laser.

2) "Staying in there" only to deliver the ball late is not good QB play. Either this means Trent doesn't make quick decisions and get the ball out quickly OR he doesn't have the arm strength to deliver the deep ball such that the WR doesn't have to slow down for it. ONE OF THESE THINGS MUST BE TRUE!!!!

3) What more do I need? I don't need anything but more arm strength gives a QB more options on how to deliver the ball.

4) VERY common response but no one has said a big arm guarantees success in the NFL nor that a small arm guarantees failure.

5) We have had a few guys that could have been the "Best QB we've had since Kelly". Edwards by far has the best supporting cast of those candidates. I think Edwards CAN be that guy and he should. No excuses anymore.

[PDaDdy]

Good QBs still take time to develop. Check Eli Manning, 4 years before it clicked.

 

Tell that to Phillip Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez.

[PDaDdy]

QUOTE (H2o @ Sep 25 2009, 06:50 PM) *

Trent is an accurate passer and his arm strength is not the problem. His problem is having the patience to let the deeper routes develope and trusting that his receivers will make it to the opening that WILL be there. That extra half second can make all the world of difference, but that comes with time and building a chemistry with the guys on the field. He has to trust that the line is going to protect him, he has to trust that the WR is going to run the correct route, and he has to trust himself that he can get the ball there. I think Trent has shown major improvement thus far and against a 3-4 defense right out the gate.

 

you sir, hit on the head

 

Lets review the logic here.

 

1) "Trent is an accurate passer" CHECK

2) "Arm strength is not a problem" CHECK

3) Under throws or throws late to WR on deep routes ...CHECK!!!!!!!

 

Please explain a scenario where these 3 things can be true? You can't both be accurate, have adequate arm strength AND frequently under throw WRs on deep routes!

 

AND YES, timing is part of accuracy. If you're trying to hit a moving target (a WR) and you throw the ball late or early..YOU HAVE MISSED YOUR MARK AND BY DEFINITION WERE NOT ACCURATE!!!!

[Bleed Bills Blue]

What about punctuation?

 

Thank's for the heads up.

Oops.

[drewbreeesss]

Back before the salary cap and total free agency, teams used to draft QB's for the future. And I mean well into the future. Now I'm not talking about the franchise top QB's like Elway, Kelly and Marino. But 2nd round QB's like Drew Brees used to get drafted and brought along over the next 3 - 5 years slowly as back ups. No worries about losing them to free agency back then so the only decision was to either trade them or cut them down the line.

 

The Chargers fell victim to the new era in the NFL with Brees. He needed a full 3 to 4 years before coming into his own, and by then, he was a free agent and the Chargers had already invested the number one pick in the '04 draft to get Rivers in the infamous trade of first pick Eli Manning to the Giants. So Brees sucked his first three seasons from '01 to '03, and his team sucked so bad they qualified for the number one pick in the '04 draft. Since Brees had not played up to their needs at that time, they went all in for Manning / Rivers.

 

Lo and behold, while Rivers played back up his first season, Brees breaks out and becomes the QB he had the potential to become. But heading into the future and Brees' free agency, now the Chargers had to choose between the two. Rivers has turned out great, but Brees went down to New Orleans and has become even greater. Who knew?? If Big John Butler and A.J. Smith had known how good Brees would eventually be, they could have traded out of that number one pick and received extra choices, or, gone ahead and drafted Larry Fitgerald instead of Manning.

 

Imagine Drew Brees today playing catch with Fitzgerald for the Chargers.

 

Anyway, my long winded point comes down to this, can we really give up on Edwards if he doesn't continue doing as well as he has started these first two games?? Edwards is a third round pick - and maybe he might need 3 - 5 years to blossom like Brees needed.

I'm a Saints fan, but I think that JP Edwards could become a very good QB

[drewbreeesss]

As I said in the other Brees thread, his success is due to the fact that he's in Sean Payton's system. If he'd gone to Miami, Oakland, or Detroit he'd just be an average QB.

Brees' acuracy is 2nd to none at this point in his career.Add that along with his Peyton Manning type obbsesion for studying film makes him far better than an average QB no matter who he plays for.

Jeez, a Saints fan dissing Drew Brees. After all the losing we've endured. You must be a party to live with. Some people complain to live and live to complain. I didn't know my ex wife even liked football.

[Magox]

WRONG!!!! I did watch last weeks games and I saw under thrown deep balls. What is getting REALLY old is people trying to defend his arm strength!!! You don't need to be able to throw a football through a wall to be a good NFL QB. Trent could end up being our starter for MANY years and do a great job at it, but PLEASE, stop saying he has a strong arm!!! He doesn't! He throws rainbows down field that are generally under thrown not LASERS like the big boys. There are weaker arms than Trent's but there are several more that are stronger.

Just to take a play out of your playbook was that "WRONG!!!!" intended to show how "RIGHT!!!!" you are in an overbearing, penishead way?

 

and when you say "I feel that this rehashed argument comes down to two camps for the people that know anything."

 

was that intended as a shot at people who in your view "don't know anything"? talk about condescending.

 

Hypocrite

 

[Magox]

There is some truth to what you say. I feel that this rehashed argument comes down to two camps for the people that know anything. Timing vs arm strength. Some like myself say that he doesn't have a strong arm. Some say he throws the ball late. TRUE if he did throw the ball earlier and trust his WR he would be better at hitting them in stride at the distance that his arm IS capable of.

 

I am personally in the "not strong" arm camp because I constantly hear how Trent is so smart, makes quick decisions and gets the ball out quickly. WEEELLLLLLLL if this is really the case then how can throwing the ball late and timing be his issue? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Trent being a smart, quick decisions maker who gets the ball out quickly but doesn't have a strong arm and throws short makes more sense as those two statements don't contradict each other.

 

I tell you what's even more contradicting, since you believe that he doesn't have a strong arm, and it's obvious that you don't believe how he is "smart, makes quick decisions and get the ball out quickly." as evidenced by your "WEEELLLLLLLL" comment, then how can he not be either so far this season with a 104 qb rating 4 TD's, 1 INT and played well enough for us to win both games?

 

and when you say:

 

Lets review the logic here.

 

1) "Trent is an accurate passer" CHECK

2) "Arm strength is not a problem" CHECK

3) Under throws or throws late to WR on deep routes ...CHECK!!!!!!!

 

Please explain a scenario where these 3 things can be true? You can't both be accurate, have adequate arm strength AND frequently under throw WRs on deep routes!

 

AND YES, timing is part of accuracy. If you're trying to hit a moving target (a WR) and you throw the ball late or early..YOU HAVE MISSED YOUR MARK AND BY DEFINITION WERE NOT ACCURATE!!!!

 

I'll tell you how you blithering idiot, those throws that you are referring to were all catchable. After watching that throw to Lee Evans (maybe 50 times), the one he actually caught, it was thrown perfectly, to where he was the only player that could of caught that pass. It couldn't of been much better than that.

 

The throw that TO dropped, which was the furthest thrown ball was perfect, the other was damn near close.

 

The only pass that was slightly underthrown was the other pass to Lee Evans, in which the defender made a good play and it would of been nice for Lee Evans to have actually won that ball. The real good ones do, and they also tend to make good QB's look great.

 

3.5 out of 4 deep passes qualify as accurate. How many times have we seen QB's just throw it up so that there WR's can make a play on it? How many times have we seen Moss win a 50/50 ball or Fitzgerald or Plaxico? Alot, that's how many!

 

so yes, and as you put it.... YOU HAVE MISSED YOUR MARK AND BY DEFINITION WAS ACCURATE!!!!

[truth on hold]

Brees TD to INT ratio before this year was 1.68. This year he's 4.5 ... THIS GUY IS IN FOR A BIG LET DOWN to get back to his historical average

[H2o]

We're all seeing the same thing I guess but just come up with different interpretations. The seam route he tried to hit Evans on a great example. He doesn't have that deep ball down the middle. Anything he throws deep is to the outside.

 

1) Yes Trent can throw 50 - 60 yards in the air via a high arching rainbow pass not a laser.

2) "Staying in there" only to deliver the ball late is not good QB play. Either this means Trent doesn't make quick decisions and get the ball out quickly OR he doesn't have the arm strength to deliver the deep ball such that the WR doesn't have to slow down for it. ONE OF THESE THINGS MUST BE TRUE!!!!

3) What more do I need? I don't need anything but more arm strength gives a QB more options on how to deliver the ball.

4) VERY common response but no one has said a big arm guarantees success in the NFL nor that a small arm guarantees failure.

5) We have had a few guys that could have been the "Best QB we've had since Kelly". Edwards by far has the best supporting cast of those candidates. I think Edwards CAN be that guy and he should. No excuses anymore.

I'd have to say that Bledsoe had the best supporting cast since Kelly, on both sides of the ball.

[PDaDdy]

Just to take a play out of your playbook was that "WRONG!!!!" intended to show how "RIGHT!!!!" you are in an overbearing, penishead way?

 

and when you say "I feel that this rehashed argument comes down to two camps for the people that know anything."

 

was that intended as a shot at people who in your view "don't know anything"? talk about condescending.

 

Hypocrite

 

 

 

LOL. How long have you been waiting to try to get back for that one? What I mean by those "who know anything" is people that don't attribute it to solar flares, concussions, WR running to fast or two slow or not fighting for the ball etc. People who aren't wearing rose colored glasses and see actual room for improvement on his deep ball. I'm not talking about people who see those things and minimize there importance or say he will grow out of it. I'm talking about people who don't think his deep balls are under thrown.

 

To take a page from your book, "are we clear now?". LOL. In my case however I REALLY DO want you to understand what I meant by that because it wasn't that old tactic of taking a shot at people who disagree with me by talking about people who "know anything".