Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I haven't posted often. Rarely actually in the last year or so. I've been mostly a lurker and i do very much appreciate the info and insight a lot of you veteran posters have provided. But it surprises me how much some of you have such little faith in our new O-line. Yes we have two rookies and a new center. In my opinion what separates them from most other NFL O-linemen is that our new guys are INTELLIGENT to the max. Also they are MEAN as hell. Our three guys are finishers. They are known for FINISHING their blocks and Relishing it. This is the kind of mentality we've been missing for too long. I miss the days of Wolford, Ritcher and Hull. Give our new guys a chance. It's not like we just drafted two StayPuff Pillsbury guys. Woody and Andy are finishers. That's what they love and that's what makes them Tick. Handy won't be a Hull or even come close but he's smart and tough is a good upgrade over Fowler and Preston. Our O-line honestly has the potential to be quite a good one. I don't know about you guys but i'm Very excited to see how they progress over the season. To you guys this may not count for much, but I coached 0-linemen in HS. (Yes i know it's nothing at all like the NFL). We had a line with average physical talent but very intelligent. We succeeded. Now our Bill's O-line is Intelligent AND has the physical tools and talent to become dominant. IMO our only question marks for the future are LW and Butler. They are serviceable. They will get the job done until we upgrade there. The board was getting a little slow so i figured i'de put in my 2 cents. Plus i think the O-line is generally always under appreciated (in any team). Post your comments if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I haven't posted often. Rarely actually in the last year or so. I've been mostly a lurker and i do very much appreciate the info and insight a lot of you veteran posters have provided. But it surprises me how much some of you have such little faith in our new O-line. Yes we have two rookies and a new center. In my opinion what separates them from most other NFL O-linemen is that our new guys are INTELLIGENT to the max. Also they are MEAN as hell. Our three guys are finishers. They are known for FINISHING their blocks and Relishing it. This is the kind of mentality we've been missing for too long. I miss the days of Wolford, Ritcher and Hull. Give our new guys a chance. It's not like we just drafted two StayPuff Pillsbury guys. Woody and Andy are finishers. That's what they love and that's what makes them Tick. Handy won't be a Hull or even come close but he's smart and tough is a good upgrade over Fowler and Preston. Our O-line honestly has the potential to be quite a good one. I don't know about you guys but i'm Very excited to see how they progress over the season. To you guys this may not count for much, but I coached 0-linemen in HS. (Yes i know it's nothing at all like the NFL). We had a line with average physical talent but very intelligent. We succeeded. Now our Bill's O-line is Intelligent AND has the physical tools and talent to become dominant. IMO our only question marks for the future are LW and Butler. They are serviceable. They will get the job done until we upgrade there. The board was getting a little slow so i figured i'de put in my 2 cents. Plus i think the O-line is generally always under appreciated (in any team). Post your comments if you wish. I don't really think there is anybody out there that WON'T give them a chance. But you could more easily just spin things the other way. Two rookies, and a backup are the starters on our line. That's scary. I haven't and won't B word about the line yet, however, it cracks me up when people tell me Eric Wood and Andy are finishers. They're mean. They are tough as nails. Intelligent. LOL. Nobody on this board has any clue if any of that is true. You really can't even make a great guess about it. Most of us didn't even know who they were in college, or on Carolina's bench, but now all of a sudden, they are world beaters? I'm not hating the line, and I'm not loving it. However, the things some of you write about these unproven guys is hilarious. No one has any idea how good ANY OF THE THREE are yet. We'll find out soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I don't really think there is anybody out there that WON'T give them a chance. But you could more easily just spin things the other way. Two rookies, and a backup are the starters on our line. That's scary. I haven't and won't B word about the line yet, however, it cracks me up when people tell me Eric Wood and Andy are finishers. They're mean. They are tough as nails. Intelligent. LOL. Nobody on this board has any clue if any of that is true. You really can't even make a great guess about it. Most of us didn't even know who they were in college, or on Carolina's bench, but now all of a sudden, they are world beaters? I'm not hating the line, and I'm not loving it. However, the things some of you write about these unproven guys is hilarious. No one has any idea how good ANY OF THE THREE are yet. We'll find out soon enough. Good points. I'm just being optimistic about our new guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I don't really think there is anybody out there that WON'T give them a chance. But you could more easily just spin things the other way. Two rookies, and a backup are the starters on our line. That's scary. Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... Whats next, someone trying to say Steve Young sucked because he was a backup to Joe Montana? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson from Gamehendge Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I haven't and won't B word about the line yet, however, it cracks me up when people tell me Eric Wood and Andy are finishers. They're mean. They are tough as nails. Intelligent. LOL. this is what HIGHLY regarded scouts and coaches have said in the press... we dont make this schit up, this is what we hear from guys who watched every college game these kids played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiz Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... While I'm happy the Bills addressed the o-line early in the draft and share your optimism for the future, I have the feeling that they will struggle until the middle to second half of season. Then, towards the end of this year the we'll be saying, "Well, next year they'll have a year of experience together..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy G Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I think the main point wingt98, is that change should do us good this year, what we had wasn't working so at least the FO did something to fix it, and that is why we're excited, we want to see what they can do!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 While I'm happy the Bills addressed the o-line early in the draft and share your optimism for the future, I have the feeling that they will struggle until the middle to second half of season. Then, towards the end of this year the we'll be saying, "Well, next year they'll have a year of experience together..." I have seen much less heralded rookie guards step in and play very well from the start of the season...see Green Bay's 2 rookie guards when Ryan Grant had his breakout year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiz Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I have seen much less heralded rookie guards step in and play very well from the start of the season...see Green Bay's 2 rookie guards when Ryan Grant had his breakout year... True. I'm trying to temper any enthusiasm, otherwise I'll be as we all have been over the past decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I think the main point wingt98, is that change should do us good this year, what we had wasn't working so at least the FO did something to fix it, and that is why we're excited, we want to see what they can do!!! I just wanted to get more discussion about our new O-line. For better or for worse it happened. It would be great if they "jell" early this year and do great. But in all probability it might not happen until the 2nd half of the season. Long term stability and dominance is what i'm looking for. If Dick's main goal was to try and save his job, he would have tried to get veteran talent right away. I think for the Bill's long term success he went about it the right way when it comes to bringing in new linemen. Berate me if u wish, but that's how i see it. Dick may lose his job in the process, but he's doing what is right for the 0-line long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... Whats next, someone trying to say Steve Young sucked because he was a backup to Joe Montana? Awesome post btw. cracked me up. I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I have seen much less heralded rookie guards step in and play very well from the start of the season...see Green Bay's 2 rookie guards when Ryan Grant had his breakout year... Yes Exactly! It doesn't mean the same thing will happen with our new rookies, but it shows it can happen nevertheless! Plus Green Bay's guards were drafted in later rounds than Andy and Woody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... Whats next, someone trying to say Steve Young sucked because he was a backup to Joe Montana? As a connoisseur of analogies, I must say brilliantly done sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... Whats next, someone trying to say Steve Young sucked because he was a backup to Joe Montana? It is indeed more challenging to play OT, mainly due to the speed of pass rushers, whereas OG's need to be more stout. I'm not convinced anyone can assume Butler will make the transition to OT, without having played their in the pros. Hangartner is definitely an improvement over Fowler/Preston. But he started the entire 2006 season, only to see Carolina draft Ryan Kalil in the second the following draft. That doesn't make much sense, and GH's starts came when Kalil went down. There are times when backups are good, but the examples you cite are selective and do not demonstrate that a guy like GH will be good. The OL will need time. Walker's going to need help, as is Butler to handle the faster edge rushers. LW's never played the LT position more than two games in row going into his 8th season. Perhaps Bell ends up there at some point, but he's never played a snap in a regular season game either. It's not outrageous to think one rookie can step in and play well, there are plenty of examples out there. But needing two of them is pushing it, IMHO. Everything has to go right for the OL, which means five guys have to step it up at with four of them playing new positions. That's really a wing and a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 It is indeed more challenging to play OT, mainly due to the speed of pass rushers, whereas OG's need to be more stout. I'm not convinced anyone can assume Butler will make the transition to OT, without having played their in the pros. Hangartner is definitely an improvement over Fowler/Preston. But he started the entire 2006 season, only to see Carolina draft Ryan Kalil in the second the following draft. That doesn't make much sense, and GH's starts came when Kalil went down. There are times when backups are good, but the examples you cite are selective and do not demonstrate that a guy like GH will be good. The OL will need time. Walker's going to need help, as is Butler to handle the faster edge rushers. LW's never played the LT position more than two games in row going into his 8th season. Perhaps Bell ends up there at some point, but he's never played a snap in a regular season game either. It's not outrageous to think one rookie can step in and play well, there are plenty of examples out there. But needing two of them is pushing it, IMHO. Everything has to go right for the OL, which means five guys have to step it up at with four of them playing new positions. That's really a wing and a prayer. If Jauron, Turk and the O-line coach take into account that all other teams will take advantage of our new guys, then maybe we'll be prepared. And the coaches BETTER do what it takes to prepare and minimize any mistakes the O-line will make. I wish the best for Jauron cause he is a good guy. But if he can't get us past the hump then he deserves to be replaced. I've coached and I know what is expected of a coach. He better pull his weight. And Turk needs to pull out all the stops with the no huddle. There is absolutely no reason to hold back on offense considering the talent we have at our disposal. We should do what the O-line can handle. Conservative O is out the window at this point. Let if fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 my biggest concern about the O-line is that they only have 2 returning starters both of which are changing positions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 If Jauron, Turk and the O-line coach take into account that all other teams will take advantage of our new guys, then maybe we'll be prepared. And the coaches BETTER do what it takes to prepare and minimize any mistakes the O-line will make. I wish the best for Jauron cause he is a good guy. But if he can't get us past the hump then he deserves to be replaced. I've coached and I know what is expected of a coach. He better pull his weight. And Turk needs to pull out all the stops with the no huddle. There is absolutely no reason to hold back on offense considering the talent we have at our disposal. We should do what the O-line can handle. Conservative O is out the window at this point. Let if fly. DJ, TS, and Kugler were the coaches last season and nothing's really changed. I've heard since 2007 that the offense would be high octane, and it hasn't happened. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it, TO or no TO. The mark of a good coach is the ability to adapt to what is going on. That doesn't mean react, that means being proactive and anticipating what to do before it happens. In three seasons, I've never see DJ or his coaches successfully do this. They've never proven they're capable of beating quality teams, which is what they'll see plenty of in 2009. As many have pointed out on TSW, running the no-huddle requires plenty of precision and will not mask weaknesses. If anything, a team needs to have experienced OLineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conch Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 The really odd thing about our line is that I feel the two vets at tackle are the weak links. I think the two rookies and back-up Wood Levitre and Hangartner will hold up okay and progress through the year. I am more worried about Butler and Walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Why? It is much easier to play guard as a rookie than it is tackle. IMHO these guys are both upgrades over the players they are replacing, as Butler is better suited to be a tackle. Hangartner is a huge upgrade over Fowler/Preston. He is also a backup in name only. Carolina was a dominant running team, and he played a big part last year. He has started exactly half of the games he has played in(27 out of 54). It is so ridiculous to keep hearing that "we have a backup at center", like that means anything. Michael Turner was a "backup" in San Diego to LT, and he did pretty well the first chance he got to start didn't he? It would be like comparing a guy who is rich and has 5 cars to a normal guy that has only 1 car and saying the normal guys car must be better than the rich guys 5th car because it is his backup car. It makes no sense. Carolina was a much better running team than we were last year, and Hangartner played a majority of the season as a starter on that line. You aren't gonna have that kind of running game if your center sucks... Whats next, someone trying to say Steve Young sucked because he was a backup to Joe Montana? Great, but no one even knows if they are good guards. THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED A DOWN IN THE NFL YET. And I don't care who Hangartner is, he was a backup. Period. The only thing that is fact about this line, is that two rookies, a backup, and two guys out of position will make up the Buffalo Bills starting line. Scary. As a note though.....I'm not a line hater at all............I just crack up when people on here talk like they KNOW these guys are good already.....and have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lv-Bills Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 this is what HIGHLY regarded scouts and coaches have said in the press... we dont make this schit up, this is what we hear from guys who watched every college game these kids played. Ummmmm, yeah ok. And these same HIGHLY.....and let me say it again.....HIGHLY regarded scouts said about Tony Mandarich, and all of the other guys they whiffed on too. Don't give me the highly regarded scouts crap......these are the same highly regarded scouts that also praised Mike Williams, Ryan Leaf, etc. That crap easily works both way. Again though, as an aside, I don't not like this line at all, but some of you crack me up. Both of those guys have just as good a chance at busting as players as they do working out at this point. No one knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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