Fred Jackson

[ans4e64]

Fair question.

 

All I am getting at is the unilatteral declation that TO is the best player on the team, is hard to support until the guy has proven anything in a buf jersey.

 

"One" of the best is a lot different then "the" best. And in my opinion, I have considered Lee the best reciever on the team for the past few years based on his production and i hope that would be the case again this year. I am not sure what the "best player on the team" argument buys but, I'll bite....

 

IMO, best player has to do with skill set. Regardless of how much he produces, he is better than anyone else. Lee Evans, too. Same goes for the DE that gets double teamed on passing downs because he's so good, but therefore doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

 

We all know TO's capabilities, and IMO, he's by far the best player we've got.

[Cookiemonster]

So if we acquired Adrian Peterson or Peyton Manning right now, they wouldn't be the best player on our team?

 

What are you basing the "best" player on, statistics?

I don't have statistics, and go back and read all of the posts sloooowly, and you will see that

I never annointed anyone as 'best player on the team", others, not to mention names, Skooby,

did. He thinks TO is the best. I am just making the argument, that he is not the best player on

the Bills, until he actually plays like, oh maybe, a full season.

 

and yes,

 

AP and PM would possibly end up being one of them, or the one, but again, I couldn't make that claim

just because we traded for him, using the same TO argument stated above. BTW, would you trade

TE for PM right now straight up, not sure I would be able to pull that trigger. PM has a ring, but he also

has some baggage, and how much does he have left in the tank, it seems to me that he was starting to

slide a bit last year, especially in the first half of the season, he is a future HOF'er, but that is based

on seasons past, next year everybody starts 0-0. I think that the Horsehoes are going to take a serious

slide this year. As for AP, I don't think that ML is that far from him from a talent standpoint and future potential.

Right now I would say AP is better than ML, but would still not say that he would be the best on the Bills if we traded

for him, again, not to be redundant, until he proved it. I am from Iowa.

[loyal2dagame]

IMO, best player has to do with skill set. Regardless of how much he produces, he is better than anyone else. Lee Evans, too. Same goes for the DE that gets double teamed on passing downs because he's so good, but therefore doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

 

We all know TO's capabilities, and IMO, he's by far the best player we've got.

 

 

your arguement doesnt work.

 

chad johnson has the best skill set as a receiver for the bungles, and he was not even close to their best receiver last year

 

so are you measuring the players on past production or future potential?

 

either way you are saying regardless of what the player produces he is better than anyone else.

 

how can you prove it?

[Cookiemonster]

Let me put this another way, let's say that TO comes out and really flops with us,

not hoping for this, or expecting it, but let's just say that he does. Are you still

going to make the claim that he is "the best player on the team", I think that you would have to,

and if so, it would have to be beacuse of his past accomplishments, because even if he does flop, everybody

else's statistics are still going to pale in comparison's to TO's., right?

 

So if you are going to make the claim that he is "the best player on the team" right now,

you are going to have to stick to your guns, and make that same claim again next year,

regardless of how he performs, if he is still with the team,right?

 

Again, I have no problem with someone saying that TO has accomplished more in the leauge

than any other player on the team, regardless of position, but I do have a problem with someone

saying that he is "the best player on the team" right now.

 

But let me tell you how I really feel.

[ans4e64]

your arguement doesnt work.

 

chad johnson has the best skill set as a receiver for the bungles, and he was not even close to their best receiver last year

 

so are you measuring the players on past production or future potential?

 

either way you are saying regardless of what the player produces he is better than anyone else.

 

how can you prove it?

 

Are you serious?

 

So I guess Robert Mathis is better than Dwight Freeney, because he had more sacks for the Colts last year.

 

I guess Jyles Tucker is better than Shawne Merriman because he had more sacks for the Chargers last year.

 

I could make the same for any position on any team. You are basing the "best" player off statistics, which as stated above, obviously is a flawed method.

[ans4e64]

Let me put this another way, let's say that TO comes out and really flops with us,

not hoping for this, or expecting it, but let's just say that he does. Are you still

going to make the claim that he is "the best player on the team", I think that you would have to,

and if so, it would have to be beacuse of his past accomplishments, because even if he does flop, everybody

else's statistics are still going to pale in comparison's to TO's., right?

 

So if you are going to make the claim that he is "the best player on the team" right now,

you are going to have to stick to your guns, and make that same claim again next year,

regardless of how he performs, if he is still with the team,right?

 

Again, I have no problem with someone saying that TO has accomplished more in the leauge

than any other player on the team, regardless of position, but I do have a problem with someone

saying that he is "the best player on the team" right now.

 

But let me tell you how I really feel.

 

No and No.

 

If T.O. flops next year, than obviously he would not be the best player going into the following year, since his and age and obvious decline in performance knock him down a bunch of notches in the best player category.

 

Right now, Owens has never flopped (IMO), therefore, he is still the best player on the field. Every year is a new year, and if it wasn't, by your system, Schobel would still be the best player on the team because 4 years ago he probably was, and that means he must be every year no matter if he flops or gets older.

[Mr. WEO]

How about the fact that he's the only sure-fire HOF on the team and has accomplished a hell of a lot more in the playoffs than Jackson or anyone else on the Bills roster? I realize the Fred Jackson worship on this board is almost limitless, but I really don't want a backup trying to tell the best guy on the team what to do.

Since TO broke up with Garcia, he has appeared in exactly 3 postseason games and has a total of 1 TD catch---in 5 years. That's quite a return on a $30+ million investment.

 

It is a testament to the chronic status of this team that some here consider TO a locker room leader who is only concerned about winning.

[ans4e64]

Since TO broke up with Garcia, he has appeared in exactly 3 postseason games and has a total of 1 TD catch---in 5 years. That's quite a return on a $30+ million investment.

 

It is a testament to the chronic status of this team that some here consider TO a locker room leader who is only concerned about winning.

 

Ok, so when he was winning in SF, it was all because of Garcia, and when he was losing in Dallas it was all because of Owens. Right.

[Bufcomments]

As for TO being the best player on the roster let me throw this at you good people.

 

Lee Evans is the best player we have IMO. But he needs TO, Jackson, Marshawn, and Trent to produce on the regular show his true potential.

 

TO will make this OFFENSE better because it forces defenses to defend the whole field.

And that was the point of getting him in the first place. Who really cares what he did in the past?? I am only concerned on what he can do for the Bills.

 

Forget stats , stats are for losers anyway.

 

I don't give a damn who scores, as long as they produce more than they have the last 4 seasons.

[loyal2dagame]

Are you serious?

 

So I guess Robert Mathis is better than Dwight Freeney, because he had more sacks for the Colts last year.

 

I guess Jyles Tucker is better than Shawne Merriman because he had more sacks for the Chargers last year.

 

I could make the same for any position on any team. You are basing the "best" player off statistics, which as stated above, obviously is a flawed method.

 

 

no, i'm asking YOU how you can devise what player has the best skill set?

 

owens has truely played for better teams than anyone that played for the recent bills teams. so because owens was around better talent he has a better skill set? i'm just wondering what you are using to measure any player's skill set?

 

edit: jyles tucker has never been busted for roids, so yes he is better when it comes to NATURAL ABILITY

[ans4e64]

no, i'm asking YOU how you can devise what player has the best skill set?

 

owens has truely played for better teams than anyone that played for the recent bills teams. so because owens was around better talent he has a better skill set? i'm just wondering what you are using to measure any player's skill set?

 

edit: jyles tucker has never been busted for roids, so yes he is better when it comes to NATURAL ABILITY

 

Probably because he is 4th ALL TIME in NFL history in touchdowns, and 6th ALL TIME in NFL history in receptions, and is still going.

 

It could also be that he has more receptions in this league than Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, James Hardy, Steve Johnson, Marshawn Lynch, Fred Jackson, Derek Fine, Derek Schouman and Corey McIntyre combined. He has more receptions than every single person on our offense put together. He also as more touchdowns than our entire roster put together, multiplied by two.

 

To put up numbers like that consistently, you've got to have a pretty damn good skill set, I'd say.

[seq004]

God forbid somebody like TO may try and push players to perform at a higher level. Don't worry if TO doesn't get players jacked we can always count on Dick.

[VOR]

Since TO broke up with Garcia, he has appeared in exactly 3 postseason games and has a total of 1 TD catch---in 5 years. That's quite a return on a $30+ million investment.

TO has played in as many playoff games since leaving the 49'ers as Moss has since leaving the Vikings...and has as many TD's. And Moss is on his 2nd team while TO is on his 3rd, and Garcia is on his 5th. Nuff said.

[Lori]

Probably because he is 4th ALL TIME in NFL history in touchdowns, and 6th ALL TIME in NFL history in receptions, and is still going.

 

It could also be that he has more receptions in this league than Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, James Hardy, Steve Johnson, Marshawn Lynch, Fred Jackson, Derek Fine, Derek Schouman and Corey McIntyre combined. He has more receptions than every single person on our offense put together. He also as more touchdowns than our entire roster put together, multiplied by two.

 

To put up numbers like that consistently, you've got to have a pretty damn good skill set, I'd say.

Nah. He was just drafting off his teammates' heat.

 

Um, wait. Who were his teammates in Philly, again? Oh, right. FredEx was there ...

[Guest dog14787]

I don't agree with Fred Jackson's comments about T.O. but I do respect the fact that he is showing some leadership and standing up for his teammates and the well being of the football team. I think T.O. understands as much and it seems like If I remember correctly T.O. has complimented Fred Jackson along with Marshawn Lynch when talking about the RB situation in Buffalo.

 

 

On the outside looking in some of us think it was a mistake to send a message to T.O. like Fred did, but on the inside it might be little things like this that make bringing T.O. to Buffalo a success in the long run.

 

Its out in the open for T.O., don't try it here, it won't be tolerated, so as an afterthought I'm thinking to myself, who I'm I to say if the message to T.O. was necessary or not. I hardly think Fred Jackson is going to intimidate T.O. and he probably took it all in stride.

 

( probably )

[Anzaloha]

Are you serious? What makes TO so special that the whole team needs to stop and listen to him. I agree he is a great receiver, but he has never won it all. He puts his pants on the same as everyone else. If he was a someone who has won a bunch of Super Bowls in his career then I would say yes, but he hasn't.

So your thought process is, If you won a superbowl, then you can talk? So you'd rather listen to Trent Dilfer

than say Jim Kelly or Dan Marino? FYI, TO played in the SB when nobody thought he could even run and had

a phenominal game. What has Fred Jackson done???

[Mr. WEO]

TO has played in as many playoff games since leaving the 49'ers as Moss has since leaving the Vikings...and has as many TD's. And Moss is on his 2nd team while TO is on his 3rd, and Garcia is on his 5th. Nuff said.

There he is! VOR and his obsession with the Pats. When you have nothing else of substance to say....

 

Anyway, your comment has nothing to do with the post I was responding to (imagine that!), which was boasting of TO's playoff experience/success, which is negligable over the past 5 years.

 

Not sure what your point about Garcia being on his 5th team. He is not a future HOFer. Also, he is not a guy who, despite being one of the best ever at his position, has been released from two teams while playing at the top of his game.

 

Nuff said, junior.

[VOR]

There he is! VOR and his obsession with the Pats. When you have nothing else of substance to say....

Sorry clueless, but I'm not the self-professed "Bills fan" who burst onto scene 5 months ago blasting everything about the Bills, while having "a killer first step" when it came to defending the Patriots. It was so blatant, it has become a running joke. And the CBA stuff was the clincher, as well as an embarrassment for you.

Anyway, your comment has nothing to do with the post I was responding to (imagine that!), which was boasting of TO's playoff experience/success, which is negligable over the past 5 years.

Oh, so the time period is 5 years, eh? Is that because any playoff wins with the 49'ers were solely because of the great Jeff Garcia? Or had TO played in the playoff games in 2004 with the Eagles that they would have lost? Or TO caused Romo (whose hands were probably shaking from withdrawal after that trip to Cabo) to fumble that FG snap, or to throw the ball more to Witten than himself in both playoff losses?

 

But fine, we'll go with the past 5 years, since it's post-49'ers. During that time, his teams have made the playoffs 3 of the 4 full seasons he's played (I omitted the 2005 season since he played in just 7 games, during which the team went 4-3, and they probably would have made the playoffs again and made it 4 appearances in 5 seasons). On top of that, his teams have made the playoffs 8 of the 12 full seasons he's played. That's a lot of playoff experience! Infinitely more than Fred Jackson has.

 

If you're really a Bills fan frustrated at the playoff drought, adding a player whose career shows that his teams make the playoffs 67% of the time (and 75% at least over the 4 full seasons he's played "over the last 5 years") you should be ecstatic. Instead you make-up some stuff about how he'll need X to keep him happy for this season and how he's certain to destroy the team in some unknown manner. You can't make this stuff up!

 

As for success, a WR alone isn't responsible for wins and losses. But you knew that. Hence the reason you got indignant when I pointed out how your boy Randy Moss (who's "taken" his teams to the playoffs just 5 times in 11 seasons and who is on his 3rd team) has made the playoffs just once since leaving the Vikings. And in the playoff games his team won that one year, he had a grand total of 2 catches for 32 yards and 0 TD's, which is slightly better than what TO produced in the games that he missed in the 2004 playoffs. Maybe we can chalk-up most of his playoff success to Daunte Culpepper?

 

If your intention was to criticize TO for his teams' lack of playoff success, you missed the mark. Imagine that!

Not sure what your point about Garcia being on his 5th team. He is not a future HOFer. Also, he is not a guy who, despite being one of the best ever at his position, has been released from two teams while playing at the top of his game.

Of course you're not sure. All that matters for you is that a QB play well for a few seasons with one team, and that's all you need to declare him "great." It's what you do. But you might want to ask yourself why the Eagles didn't even make Garcia an offer after the 2006 season, despite him publicly saying that he would like to stay there?

 

To answer your question however, we've already established that TO got himself cut from the Eagles in a contract dispute (that worked-out great for TO), while the Eagles are further from a SB team than they were with TO on board. And the Jones have already admitted that they cut TO because Romo was a disappointment as a leader. So now that TO is no longer the scapegoat, Romo is free to throw passes to Witten to his heart's content, and see where that gets them. Because it's not like Jerry Jones has been making any bad decisions lately.

[Mr. WEO]

Sorry clueless, but I'm not the self-professed "Bills fan" who burst onto scene 5 months ago blasting everything about the Bills, while having "a killer first step" when it came to defending the Patriots. It was so blatant, it has become a running joke. And the CBA stuff was the clincher, as well as an embarrassment for you.

 

Oh, so the time period is 5 years, eh? Is that because any playoff wins with the 49'ers were solely because of the great Jeff Garcia? Or had TO played in the playoff games in 2004 with the Eagles that they would have lost? Or TO caused Romo (whose hands were probably shaking from withdrawal after that trip to Cabo) to fumble that FG snap, or to throw the ball more to Witten than himself in both playoff losses?

 

But fine, we'll go with the past 5 years, since it's post-49'ers. During that time, his teams have made the playoffs 3 of the 4 full seasons he's played (I omitted the 2005 season since he played in just 7 games, during which the team went 4-3, and they probably would have made the playoffs again and made it 4 appearances in 5 seasons). On top of that, his teams have made the playoffs 8 of the 12 full seasons he's played. That's a lot of playoff experience! Infinitely more than Fred Jackson has.

 

If you're really a Bills fan frustrated at the playoff drought, adding a player whose career shows that his teams make the playoffs 67% of the time (and 75% at least over the 4 full seasons he's played "over the last 5 years") you should be ecstatic. Instead you make-up some stuff about how he'll need X to keep him happy for this season and how he's certain to destroy the team in some unknown manner. You can't make this stuff up!

 

As for success, a WR alone isn't responsible for wins and losses. But you knew that. Hence the reason you got indignant when I pointed out how your boy Randy Moss (who's "taken" his teams to the playoffs just 5 times in 11 seasons and who is on his 3rd team) has made the playoffs just once since leaving the Vikings. And in the playoff games his team won that one year, he had a grand total of 2 catches for 32 yards and 0 TD's, which is slightly better than what TO produced in the games that he missed in the 2004 playoffs. Maybe we can chalk-up most of his playoff success to Daunte Culpepper?

 

If your intention was to criticize TO for his teams' lack of playoff success, you missed the mark. Imagine that!

 

Of course you're not sure. All that matters for you is that a QB play well for a few seasons with one team, and that's all you need to declare him "great." It's what you do. But you might want to ask yourself why the Eagles didn't even make Garcia an offer after the 2006 season, despite him publicly saying that he would like to stay there?

 

To answer your question however, we've already established that TO got himself cut from the Eagles in a contract dispute (that worked-out great for TO), while the Eagles are further from a SB team than they were with TO on board. And the Jones have already admitted that they cut TO because Romo was a disappointment as a leader. So now that TO is no longer the scapegoat, Romo is free to throw passes to Witten to his heart's content, and see where that gets them. Because it's not like Jerry Jones has been making any bad decisions lately.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you have a reading comprehension deficit or just a compulsion to make thisngs up so you can counter them.

 

Anyway. I never said Garcia was a "great" QB. In fact, I've repeated this more than once becuase you keep claiming I did. The time period is 5 years because that's the period when TO decided that he wanted to leave SF and find more glory elsewhere. It hasn't worked out quite as well as he planned, or as you imagine. He was cut from the Eagles because they couldn't stand him. It worked out "great" for him? He signed with Philly for less than top 10 WR money and then missed out on some of that when suspended. They made it clear they do not renegotiate signed contracts in Philly and by being a dick he made sure they were not going to make an exception for him. The Jones boys did the math and felt he wasn't worth the trouble and expense of resigning.

 

As for playoffs, Philly won their playoff games without TO on their way to the SB. They didn't win with him in the SB. So, while I'm happy if TO brings anything to this anemic offense, his "playoff experience" (which was the original point I was responding to) is negligable.

 

Go on denying TO's history. It never happened--any of it. You have always held your current views of TO and they are no even stronger now that he wears the Bills uni.

 

It's funny how you label Moss as "my boy". So pathetic----again you have to build your argument on an anti-Pats tangent I've always thought of Moss a an opportunist---a guy with great talent who needs a great QB to bring out his skills. Otherwise, he is a legendary dogger who doesn't give two shiiiits.

 

Again, it makes you feel better about yourself and your beliefs to say I am a "Pats fan" because it would be beyond your powers of comprehension to consider that any right minded, true Bills fan would ever question your well thougth out arguments. The "running joke" has pretty much run it's course--it mainly consisted of you and a couple of guys calling Brady gay and me also by proxy.

 

I think I "burst onto the scene" sometime around "they should check the marijuana for fingerprints...or DNA". I couldn't resist. But I have found you to be completely incapable of embarrassment.

[VOR]

Sometimes I wonder if you have a reading comprehension deficit or just a compulsion to make thisngs up so you can counter them.

 

Anyway. I never said Garcia was a "great" QB. In fact, I've repeated this more than once becuase you keep claiming I did. The time period is 5 years because that's the period when TO decided that he wanted to leave SF and find more glory elsewhere. It hasn't worked out quite as well as he planned, or as you imagine. He was cut from the Eagles because they couldn't stand him. It worked out "great" for him? He signed with Philly for less than top 10 WR money and then missed out on some of that when suspended. They made it clear they do not renegotiate signed contracts in Philly and by being a dick he made sure they were not going to make an exception for him. The Jones boys did the math and felt he wasn't worth the trouble and expense of resigning.

 

As for playoffs, Philly won their playoff games without TO on their way to the SB. They didn't win with him in the SB. So, while I'm happy if TO brings anything to this anemic offense, his "playoff experience" (which was the original point I was responding to) is negligable.

 

Go on denying TO's history. It never happened--any of it. You have always held your current views of TO and they are no even stronger now that he wears the Bills uni.

 

It's funny how you label Moss as "my boy". So pathetic----again you have to build your argument on an anti-Pats tangent I've always thought of Moss a an opportunist---a guy with great talent who needs a great QB to bring out his skills. Otherwise, he is a legendary dogger who doesn't give two shiiiits.

 

Again, it makes you feel better about yourself and your beliefs to say I am a "Pats fan" because it would be beyond your powers of comprehension to consider that any right minded, true Bills fan would ever question your well thougth out arguments. The "running joke" has pretty much run it's course--it mainly consisted of you and a couple of guys calling Brady gay and me also by proxy.

 

I think I "burst onto the scene" sometime around "they should check the marijuana for fingerprints...or DNA". I couldn't resist. But I have found you to be completely incapable of embarrassment.

Hurrah, we've made a breakthrough! Garcia isn't a great QB. Now we just need to hear you say he isn't even a "really good QB." You know, the kind of QB that Moss needs to have throwing to him, otherwise he puts up sh------- numbers and "acts like a dick" and gets himself traded. Yet even with a "really good QB," he can't win a SB, while his paltry numbers in the 2 playoff games his team won could have been produced by anyone.

 

TO got paid almost $32M the last 3 years with the Cowboys, and Jerruh actually re-signed him prior to the start of last season, giving him a $10M bonus. Your facts, as always, are impeccable. So yeah, I'd say that worked-out pretty well for him, especially getting away from McPuke, who you yourself said would never win a SB. I guess what didn't workout for TO was having Romo, a pathetic excuse for a leader, who the Jones' are praying will magically transform into one now that big bad TO is off the team, playing rockstar rather than NFL QB.

 

Making the playoffs 8 times in 12 full seasons and playing in the SB is "lacking playoff experience?" Any "blunts" nearby that we can dust for your fingerprints? Just when you can't say anything more dumb, it's like another gift from heaven. Oh and the fingerprints on the blunts thing was for people like you, who will believe anything like "the cops saw and smelled blunts but didn't charge anyone because no one admitted they were his."

 

And for the record, I never called Brady gay, and never called you gay either. Nice try at making that one up. But you are what you are, despite what you claim. And more than just a couple of us realize it. But go ahead and continue to deny it. I don't know what makes you think you're a Bills fan, but if you visit your doctor, he/she will have some medication to help you.