Vick - Should the Bills Pursue

[Big Turk]

no, the guy is a running back playing QB, as you can tell by looking at his completion percentage. Bottom line is he was not a very a good QB. He hasn't played in 2 years, so there is no telling what type of shape he is in and how much he has lost, not to mention the off the field implications. No need to take a chance on a guy who would only be able to be a 4th WR at best on this team...

[Jdorn]

There's no such thing as a friendly pit bull there are only pit bulls that haven't attacked anyone yet.

 

Are there plenty of friendly dogs in the world? Sure there are. Cocker spaniels? yes. German shepherds, yes, Retrievers? yes. Bulldogs? yes. (which by the way were specifically bred for their fighting acumen which is why they look the way they look)

 

Pit bulls exist for a single purpose and I would not let my child NEAR one let alone own one.

 

This is one of the most untrue and misleading posts in this thread. The AKC has the American Pit Bull listed as one of the best choices for breeds that are child friendly. You are mistaking overbreeding and a diminished gene pool and the fact that alot of people raise Pits to be aggressive for a naturally agressive breed. In fairness Pits are naturally dog aggressive however they are one of the most loyal and child friendly breeds out there.

[KD in CA]

Its unlikely that he never worked out or thought about football at all.

Big difference between lifting weights in the prison yard and working out with a first team pro offense. What little timing he ever had is probably shot. Two years (plus an offseason) is a long time to be away from pro football.

 

How long ago was that fabled playoff game in Green Bay that Vick lovers hang onto?? Well, just for a little perspective, back in January, 2003:

 

--No one had ever heard of Barack Obama

--The Iraq war had not yet begun

--Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was a free man

--Space shuttle Columbia was still in one piece

--ICE, NJSue and BF were active posters. /dev/null, Exiled in IL and Chef Jim weren't here yet.

And Kelly wasn't yet Fair and Balanced.

 

People need to wake up and smell 2009.

[Ish]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Ish]

ALL the stupid racists and moralists on this high and mighty message board showing their opposition, god forbid of having a decent QB on the team

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

This is one of the most untrue and misleading posts in this thread. The AKC has the American Pit Bull listed as one of the best choices for breeds that are child friendly. You are mistaking overbreeding and a diminished gene pool and the fact that alot of people raise Pits to be aggressive for a naturally agressive breed. In fairness Pits are naturally dog aggressive however they are one of the most loyal and child friendly breeds out there.

Dogs Most Likely to kill

 

I could care less what the AKC says about the breed. The fact that so many people train them to be aggressive and that the "gene pool" is watered down means that you have no idea what that dog will do and the vast majority fo folks out there don't have AKC dogs. As such my 3 year old will be taught to stay very very very far away from pit bulls and rottweilers.

 

Here's a quote from the study.

 

"If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed."

 

Yup, sign me up.

[Schobel94]

Who the F*#K are you to tell me to leave this site?!?

 

You have no factual evidence that his game has deteriorated do you? Were you a CO in Leavenworth and watched him every day in the yard get fat and slow? Did you watch him sit in his cell and do nothing? For all you know he was hitting the weights and running every day, and reading up on football defences.

 

I dont have an obsession with the wildcat or like it but the league is. Unless I am wrong we ran it a few times last year along with the rest of the copy cat teams in the leauge. And it proved that it did work. Im not looking up stats to prove you wrong, you can just be ignorant about it.

 

How much factual knowledge do you have that we will be running a no-huddle this year? Because Tim Graham and John Clayton wrote about it? Because the Bills said they were? They said that last year too, along with saying they would be using the FB alot more, and none of it happened. And how do you know Vick is too stupid to run it? Have you ever spoken to him? Whats his IQ? Better yet whats yours?

 

The Win/Loss record of Trent is 12-11 as a starter. If you call that most of the time I wonder how you manage your life. Do you consider being hired at McDonalds, Burger King and Moes most of the time in terms of job inquiries since you also applied to Taco Bell and Mighty Taco(man if you only got that Mighty job you would have been so cool). Michael is 41-31 in his career.

 

Last I checked Vick and Young were winning games. One of the only reasons why Young was benched was because of his mental make up. The league has not figured out how to beat them they were benched or are out of the league for other reasons. Their physical abilities can win games alone. No they are not the brightest in the league but you dont need to be smart to play football. Just like Dick Juron is extremely smart, but cant figure out when to throw a challenge flag. He also has more rushing TD's than Trent has passing.

 

I haved proved multiple times that I do have a clue what I am talking about. I have season tickets and until the day I die will be a Bills fan. I show up at 8am every home game to tailgate in rain, snow or shine and havent missed a game in 3 years, Ive been to the draft in NYC, Ive seen Bills players inducted into the HOF, Ive traveled cross-country to see the Bills play away games even during seasons of absolute hell. Who the hell are you to judge me!?!

 

The stats dont lie. He is better than Trent in his career as a starting QB. I happen to be a huge fan of Trent and believe that he can lead us to the playoffs if you ask my opinion. A backup or situational QB is never a bad thing. I never said anything about him being handed the starting job at all. All I said was that he should be given a chance. And the media coverage alone would help this team become more relevant and sell tickets than in the past. I also said that I didnt think it would happen because we already have our BACKUP QB!!! I just wouldnt be against it.

 

Now go F*$k yourself and get back to flipping your burgers and asking if they want fries with that.

 

sorry for not replying but i was, how did you put it "flipping burgers"? the same argument that you use on me that "i don't know what he was doing in his cell" applies for you too, at this point it is just speculation. he could be the out of shape football retarded person i believe he is, or he can be the buff weightlifting quaterback god you think he is, the fact of the matter is that it is irrelevant because if football players got more buff in jail then training camp would be held at Levenworth prison.

 

how many times did we attempt(and fail) at the wild cat? the wild cat is not something to base your offense around because there are only so many plays you can run out of it. it is meant for fast paced drives to keep the defense on its toes, much the same way the no-huddle does. and i never said outright that the bills were running the no-huddle i said it "SEEMS" that we are, once again this is just speculation. at this point i think our team, and for that matter the quarterback is too young and inexperienced to run the no-huddle all the time so, like the wild cat it will be used to shock defenses. Vick would do very well in the wild cat, much like pat white because he has the ability to throw, but that doesn't mean he is good at it.

 

you see these players who look to run first...michael vick, vince young, jamarcus russell, daunte culpepper, aaron brooks, byron leftwich...are all bad players not because they are not athletic, but because they don't know how to manage a game. even john elway and steve young were bad when they looked to run first pass second but they learned how to slow the game down mentally and now they are both in the HOF. guys like michael vick are one-trick pony's, exciting yes, but very predictable. why do you think vince young went from rookie of the year to complete bust the second year? because teams figured out how to defend them...make them play quarterback, and don't rush him make your D-line play contain and form a pocket around him. once you do that the interceptions will start to come.

 

i have nothing against players like vick and i think he should be given the chance to play again, but i personally wouldn't offer him a contract (not because of off field issues) because he really has very little to offer this team. now if this team is commited(and i mean like miami commited where he is in for at least 1/3 of the offensive snaps) to the wild cat, not just a play or 2 here or there but really commited, then take a shot at him. i just really think that is not the position this team wants to go.

 

hmmm, what was your other argument...oh yeah there records how long has vick been in the league not to mention the number of offensive and head coaches he has gone through because they "just couldn't win". take a look at the eagles NFC championship game where the "untouchable" vick got sytematically gangbanged by an eagles defense that really didn't move more than 5 yards past line of scrimmage. they didn't chase him down, they waited him out and when he tried to run everywhere the eagles were disciplined and remained in there gaps. give Trent time, besides that is his wins as a starter so losses like the one against the cardinals (were he was injured on the first play) really had nothing to do with him.

 

his numbers suck!

http://thewiiremedia.revolutionreport.net/articles/927.jpg

[Jdorn]

Dogs Most Likely to kill

 

I could care less what the AKC says about the breed. The fact that so many people train them to be aggressive and that the "gene pool" is watered down means that you have no idea what that dog will do and the vast majority fo folks out there don't have AKC dogs. As such my 3 year old will be taught to stay very very very far away from pit bulls and rottweilers

 

I would agree with what you are saying here, an interesting note however lies right in the link you provided. Interesting about a child being killed by a pomeranian that had been raised as a watchdog. You also had German Shepard listed as a friendly breed when in fact they are number three on the list of fatalities. I do understand your point I just think that there are more irresponsible pit and rot owners out there. I'm just saying don't blame the breed for the non responsible owner. Keep your child away from pits and rots if you want to but don't be lulled into a false sense of security with other breeds. It is your responibility to make sure your daughter knows how to act around and respect dogs. I think any breed or species for that matter would be more apt to act out of character when it is more widely abused. Don't condem the breed on your opinion that its an aggressive breed, uncover all the facts. I know plenty of Pits that I have no problem with my children being around however they have responsible owners and proven bloodlines.

 

I would however agree due to the underlying issues and the widespread abuse of Pits and rots it is best to be aware of and on guard towards these breeds.

[Orton's Arm]

Martha Stewart, G. Gordon Liddy, Micheal Milken, these people are unemployed?

 

We're a lot more likely to ignore white collar felonies.

The cases you've mentioned are not exactly parallel. Martha Stewart used inside information to avoid taking a loss on some stock she owned. (She sold her shares shortly before the stock took a plunge.) What she did is not a good thing, and she went to prison for it. But it's not in the same category as torturing and killing innocent animals.

[The_Philster]

There's no such thing as a friendly pit bull there are only pit bulls that haven't attacked anyone yet.

 

Are there plenty of friendly dogs in the world? Sure there are. Cocker spaniels? yes. German shepherds, yes, Retrievers? yes. Bulldogs? yes. (which by the way were specifically bred for their fighting acumen which is why they look the way they look)

 

Pit bulls exist for a single purpose and I would not let my child NEAR one let alone own one.

The phrase bull sh-- doesn't seem strong enough. If you treat a pit bull with love and care, you'll have a loving and caring friend. If you treat a German Shepherd the way scum like Vick treated those pit bulls, you'll have a vicious dog

 

nearly 27% have voted yes???

 

These are the same people who would probably take OJ Simpson as our RB now and Rae Carruth as our WR...Vick's only a few notches below those scumbags, IMO

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

The phrase bull sh-- doesn't seem strong enough. If you treat a pit bull with love and care, you'll have a loving and caring friend.

Here's a list of all the fatal pit bull attacks in the US since July 2006 - there were 34. Have there been fatal attacks by other breeds? Sure have, mostly huskys and rottweilers, but pit bulls far far far outpace any of them. obvioulsy any dog can be dangerous but pit bulls are inherently strong, heavy, and have aggressive tendencies which is why they are chosen as fighting dogs. The following list generally follows the patetrn of the very young or the very old being at greatest risk because they can't fight off the dog. I bolded attacks that were done by the family dog or by a dog that was familiar to the victim - I counted 21 but there's room for interpretation, at least 15 are rock solid. Is it possible that all of these people mistreated their dogs? Sure, but it's pretty unlikely.

 

Here's the link in case you're concerned that I'm just making up a list.

 

July 27th, 2006 71-year-old Ms. Jimmie May McConnell was in her yard in Kansas City, Kan., when a pit bull jumped over her fence and killed her.

 

Earlier in the month, 3-year-old Mariah Puga of Hargill, Texas, was killed by her parents pit bulls.

 

July 31, 2006, John Brannaman, 81, died of a heart attack at Orlando, Florida, after he was mauled by two pit bulls in front of his home when he tried to retrieve garbage cans from the road.

 

October 8, 2006, 44-year-old Jeannine Fusco was killed in Ramapo, NY, by a pit bull that she was taking care of for a friend.

 

October 28, 2006, 40-year-old Tim McCurry of Montgomery County, TX, was killed by a pit bull that he was considering buying for home protection

 

November 4, 2006, one-year-old Allen L. Young died after he was mauled at home by his dad's four pit bulls, which took the boy from his bed at night.

 

November 8, 2006, a pit bull was found eating the body of Richard Adams, in Phenix City, Alabama, after it killed him.

 

January 2007, 10-year-old Amber Jones was fatally attacked by a neighbor's pit bull on January 12, 2007. She previously had played with the dog.

 

April 2007, 2-year-old Brian Palmer was mauled to death by the family pit bull. The boy had been left alone in the house with the dog and the boy's brothers, the oldest of whom was 16

 

May 13, 2007, Celestino Rangel, a 90-year-old man in San Antonio, Texas, was killed by two pit bulls that had broken into his home and attacked him.

 

June 29, 2007, Mary Diana Bernal, 62, of Dallas, Texas, was killed by a pit bull owned by her brother in law, Eliasar Macias. "My dog never had any problems. He was a real friendly dog until now," Macias said.

 

July 29, 2007, a 6-month-old pit bull in Bath, New York, killed 6-year-old Sabin Jones-Abbott of Steuben County, New York. The boy had been feeding the dog minutes before the attack.

 

August 31, 2007, 6-year-old Scott Warren of Dallas was killed by his family's pet pit bull.

 

October 3, 2007, Tina Marie Canterbury, 42, of Middleburg, Florida, was mauled to death by the two pit bulls which she had raised from the time they were puppies

 

November 6, 2007, 11-year-old Seth Lovitt was running through his own home when his parents' pit bull jumped off a couch and mauled the child to death.

 

November 12, 2007, 21-year-old Jennifer Lowe of Knox County, Tennessee, died after she was mauled by pit bulls at the residence of a friend.

 

December 13, 2007, Holden Jernigan, 2 years old, was mauled to death in his grandmother's back yard by her male pit bull. She was babysitting him when he went into the yard, alone.

 

December 17, 2007, 77-year-old Blanche Broduer was attacked in Clayton, Georgia, by a pit bull in the home that the victim was house-sitting.

 

December 25, 2007, in Yermo, California, 45-year-old Kelly Caldwell was killed by up to five dogs. The dogs were running at large on the street where the victim was walking. The dogs were pit bulls and at least one belonged to a neighbor.

 

January 20, 2008, 24-year-old Kelli Chapman of Longville, Louisiana, was killed by her two pit bulls. Her husband found her on the floor of their bedroom, where she died of bite trauma and blood loss

 

May 18, 2008, Tanner Joshua Monk of Breckenridge, Stephens County, Texas, was mauled by two pit bulls, resulting in his death

 

June 18, 2008, Pablo Hernandez (aka Pablo Lopez), 5, of Hidalgo County, Texas, was mauled to death by a pit bull.

 

July 22, 2008, Tony Evans Jr., a 3-year-old boy from Jackson, Mississippi, was playing with friends across the street from his home. The house had a carport where a pit bull was chained. The dog dragged the boy into its doghouse and killed him.

 

Six-year-old Isis Krieger of Anchorage, Alaska, was mauled by her parents' pit bull on August 12, 2008, and perished on August 18, 2008

 

August 2008, Robert Howard, 38, of Detroit, Michigan, was killed by a pit bull outside his home. The dog was attacking a female neighbor's dog and was threatening to go after the woman. Howard came out of his house to stop the attack. The pit bull bit him in the calf and ripped out the arteries, causing the man to bleed to death on the spot.

 

Henry Piotrowski, 90 years old, of Staten Island, New York, was mauled by two pit bulls on July 1, 2008, and died on August 17, 2008. One of his legs had to be amputated, and he had been in the hospital since the attack.

 

September 4, 2008, Luna McDaniel, 83, of Ville Platte, Louisiana, died as a result of being mauled by 3 pit bulls on August 24, 2008. The old woman was collecting cans in her neighborhood for recycling

 

September 12, 2008, Cenedi Kia Carey, a 4-month-old girl, was fatally mauled by her family's two pit bulls in their North Las Vegas home. The child was in a stroller and being watched by her grandmother. The dogs were in the back yard. They got through a screen door to attack the girl and then, when the grandmother pulled the injured baby away, the dogs attacked again and finished the child off.

 

September 29, 2008, Katya Teresa Todesco, a 5-year-old girl residing in Simi Valley, California, died from a pit bull attack which occurred on September 23, 2008. The dog was in a neighbor's back yard.

 

October 31, 2008, 62-year-old Chester R. Jordan of Muncie, Indiana, was killed by three of his own pitbulls, inside his residence.

 

December 19, 2008, Gerald Adelmund, a 60-year-old resident of Rubidoux, California, was attacked and killed by two pit bulls. The dogs lived with him and his son, daughter-in-law and their three children. One dog was a pure pit bull, while the other was a pit bull mixed with mastiff. He was in his own back yard.

 

January 6, 2008, a five year old girl in Thomasville, Georgia, was mauled to death by her parent's pit bulls while she was playing in her own back yard.

 

March 26, 2009, Tyson Miller, an 18-month-old Texas boy, was fatally attacked in his back yard by a female pit bull. His parents had been caring for the dog and apparently thought it to be harmless.

 

March 31, 2009, two pit bulls killed Izaiah G. Cox in San Antonio, Texas, as the child was laying on a bed. The dogs broke through or went over a baby gate inside the house. When the baby's grandmother tried to rescue him, the pit bulls attacked her too, requiring hospitalization

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

The cases you've mentioned are not exactly parallel. Martha Stewart used inside information to avoid taking a loss on some stock she owned. (She sold her shares shortly before the stock took a plunge.) What she did is not a good thing, and she went to prison for it. But it's not in the same category as torturing and killing innocent animals.

As the bottom of my post states, we're a lot more likely to look past white collar felonies.

 

I'd argue that G. Gordon Liddy helped to destroy what was left of America's innocence and faith in government but he gets to have a radio show.

[mrags]

sorry for not replying but i was, how did you put it "flipping burgers"? the same argument that you use on me that "i don't know what he was doing in his cell" applies for you too, at this point it is just speculation. he could be the out of shape football retarded person i believe he is, or he can be the buff weightlifting quaterback god you think he is, the fact of the matter is that it is irrelevant because if football players got more buff in jail then training camp would be held at Levenworth prison.

 

how many times did we attempt(and fail) at the wild cat? the wild cat is not something to base your offense around because there are only so many plays you can run out of it. it is meant for fast paced drives to keep the defense on its toes, much the same way the no-huddle does. and i never said outright that the bills were running the no-huddle i said it "SEEMS" that we are, once again this is just speculation. at this point i think our team, and for that matter the quarterback is too young and inexperienced to run the no-huddle all the time so, like the wild cat it will be used to shock defenses. Vick would do very well in the wild cat, much like pat white because he has the ability to throw, but that doesn't mean he is good at it.

 

you see these players who look to run first...michael vick, vince young, jamarcus russell, daunte culpepper, aaron brooks, byron leftwich...are all bad players not because they are not athletic, but because they don't know how to manage a game. even john elway and steve young were bad when they looked to run first pass second but they learned how to slow the game down mentally and now they are both in the HOF. guys like michael vick are one-trick pony's, exciting yes, but very predictable. why do you think vince young went from rookie of the year to complete bust the second year? because teams figured out how to defend them...make them play quarterback, and don't rush him make your D-line play contain and form a pocket around him. once you do that the interceptions will start to come.

 

i have nothing against players like vick and i think he should be given the chance to play again, but i personally wouldn't offer him a contract (not because of off field issues) because he really has very little to offer this team. now if this team is commited(and i mean like miami commited where he is in for at least 1/3 of the offensive snaps) to the wild cat, not just a play or 2 here or there but really commited, then take a shot at him. i just really think that is not the position this team wants to go.

 

hmmm, what was your other argument...oh yeah there records how long has vick been in the league not to mention the number of offensive and head coaches he has gone through because they "just couldn't win". take a look at the eagles NFC championship game where the "untouchable" vick got sytematically gangbanged by an eagles defense that really didn't move more than 5 yards past line of scrimmage. they didn't chase him down, they waited him out and when he tried to run everywhere the eagles were disciplined and remained in there gaps. give Trent time, besides that is his wins as a starter so losses like the one against the cardinals (were he was injured on the first play) really had nothing to do with him.

 

his numbers suck!

http://thewiiremedia.revolutionreport.net/articles/927.jpg

 

There is no way to prove what shape Vick is in. Your comment is up for argument so is mine.

 

How many times did we attempt and succeed? Do you want to do the leg work to look up the % of plays we gained positive yards in the wildcat? or maybe you should find out the % of plays Miami gained yards in the wildcat. The fact is that it has shown that it works. Why? I have no idea. I think its absolutely rediculous and hate the fact that pro NFL teams are fooled by this formation. But it has been proven that it does work.

 

Russell and Culpepper are hardly run first QB's. Most would see them as mobile QB's that can but would hardly run first. Leftwich has NEVER been a run first QB. The guy is slow and had movement in the pocket, thats different from run first. Look at his rushing stats to prove me wrong if you want, you wont find them. Russell, Leftwich and Brooks just sucked/suck period. As bad as you think Vick and Young are, they are gods compared to the other 3. If im not mistaken Culpepper was a pro-bowl caliber QB for years and was on one of the most powerful offenses of all time until the Colts and Pats in recent years have knocked them off. Not to mention that Russell and Young are young and have alot of football to play and prove you wrong. And young went 8-8 his first year, and 10-6 his second year and made the playoffs. He was only benched because of his breakdown and suicide attempts.

 

Thank you for at least saying you have nothing agaist Vick coming back into the league and giving him another chance. However I feel that a previous starting QB with experience can offer quite a bit to this team. Would you really be more comfortable with Hamden taking snaps? Ask that one to yourself honestly. But I do agree that this team will not be interested and im ok with it either way. I just think he could help a team win in one way or another.

 

I only pointed out that Vick and Young had been to the playoffs in the past 7 years. The fact that they have won playoff games, and have winning records when all is said and done. My point is our team has not had a winning season in how many years? How would an expereinced QB not be a good thing? Especially one that has amazing physical ability. You can say all you want against those games they lost to Philly in the playoffs. The fact is that Philly went to the NFC Championship game for something like 4 years in a row. Oh by the way, they had McNabb a mobile/running QB when they beat Vick and every other team to make it that far, and to the SB.

 

I said before, I really like Trent. I have given him time and not judged him based on the horrible team/coaching weve had in the past few years. I also think he can/will lead us to the playoffs this year. Im not blaming games like the Cards loss on Trent, but dont think that Vick and Young didnt finish games and their backups won them for the two of them. It just didnt happen if at all, then often.

 

I will be the first to point out that statistics are very important in judging players good or bad. But there are more important things than stats. If stats are the only thing that mattered then Dan Marino would be the best QB of all time. The fact is that Vick and Young have winning records as starting QB's. It is a measurable stat.