PromoTheRobot Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 & you realize that your comparing buffalo to the top 4-5 cities in this country financially speaking. Without seeing the numbers last year from Forbes, I guaranty there are at least 12-15 teams in the NFL right now that are less profitable then the bills. Why dont you ever talk about them moving to LA or Toronto? So Buffalo is never going to be confused with NY, Boston, Dallas or Chicago. Neither is 95% of the other NFL teams. I would have to do some serious research but I think no ther NFL market has fewer major corporations based in it than Buffalo. And while Buffalo is modestly profitable now, it's that way because Wilson owes no money on the Bills. Anyone having to carry debt service on several hundred million in purchase financing would be drowning in red ink. And you are correct in saying that there are at least a dozen NFL markets that are not much better than Buffalo. Several of them like New Orleans, Minnesota and Jacksonville are mentioned in relocation rumors as well. But it's also true that Buffalo charges the least for tickets, suites and luxury seating. The difference is this is not the NFL of Pete Rozelle, it's the NFL of Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones...owners who don't care one bit about a strong league and parity. All they care about is squeezing every last golden egg from the goose. They see $$$ in places like Las Vegas, L.A. and Toronto and they can't understand why they can't flip a few franchises to cash in? I thought the current economic crises would put a damper on such things but seeing some of the deals signed lately you'd never know there was a recession. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Anyone who thnks Ralph is greedy or somehow scheming to make the Bills bad so they are easier to move is at worst crazy and at least ungrateful to a an owner who's heart is in the right place. If Ralph really were the greedy SOB some of you accuse him of being this team would be gone 10 years ago. Ralph Wilson could have sold the Bills and made 10 times more money than he makes now and he wouldn't have to put up with moronic comments like these. And while the Bills were in Buffalo tickets and parking would 2-3x higher. As for the Bills being bad, I think Ralph as much as any of us wants a winner. He just doesn't know how to build one. True he had Bill Polian here and fired him, but we don't really know what Bill did to piss off Ralph. Polian wasn't known for his people skills. Since then we've had John Butler who was a Polian disciple, Tom Donahoe who was supposed to be such a football guru, then Marv who was supposed to ressurect the 90's Bills. All have failed. Now Ralph probably feels like he can't make a good decision so he's just going to stick with what he has an hope for the best. I think when you are in your 90's and your end can occur at any moment, your perspective on things changes. The whining of frustrated fans doesn't mean so much, especially when your daughter goes before you do. Despite what many say here, there is little Ralph can really do to absolutely guarantee the Bills stay in Buffalo. Like so many of you Republican-types like to point out we live in a market economy and businesses should be free to make the most money they can. So why do you expect any new owner of the Bills to keep the team here when they can make double in L.A.? It sucks but enjoy the Bills while we have them. Maybe we end up splitting the team with Toronto if we're lucky. PTR The reason why Ralph fired Polian is because Polian called his daughter a fat c##t and it was a fireable offense. I read that somewhere and I used to work with one of the ex-Bills who played during the 90's on the practice squad and he said the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKOOBY Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 I would have to do some serious research but I think no ther NFL market has fewer major corporations based in it than Buffalo. And while Buffalo is modestly profitable now, it's that way because Wilson owes no money on the Bills. Anyone having to carry debt service on several hundred million in purchase financing would be drowning in red ink. And you are correct in saying that there are at least a dozen NFL markets that are not much better than Buffalo. Several of them like New Orleans, Minnesota and Jacksonville are mentioned in relocation rumors as well. But it's also true that Buffalo charges the least for tickets, suites and luxury seating. The difference is this is not the NFL of Pete Rozelle, it's the NFL of Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones...owners who don't care one bit about a strong league and parity. All they care about is squeezing every last golden egg from the goose. They see $$$ in places like Las Vegas, L.A. and Toronto and they can't understand why they can't flip a few franchises to cash in? I thought the current economic crises would put a damper on such things but seeing some of the deals signed lately you'd never know there was a recession. PTR Interest on $500 Million at just 5% is $25 Million without ever touching the original amount borrowed. That's more than the Bills make now and you do have to pay back the original money at some point. PSL's are not going to fly in Buffalo at any price right now, regardless of the claims of people here willing to spend $100 a ticket. How many would sign up for a $5000 personal seat license for the right to buy a ticket?? I'd say that would be the shortest line in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 There is more than one group in the mix, I feel that it being based on friends buying the team / Ralph leading with his heart, the team stays in Buffalo. If the other groups spend a huge amount more than the friendly group and the state incentives cannot make it up, the team is gone. The local income / population is not making major city money and saying ~7% of the population needs to make the money to afford the tickets is just silly. We have to face the reality that the area has been financially challenged for far too long to think it's going to change soon. The team is leaving for sure Skooby. Sabres will stay though, so you will still have something to do all day, no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The team is leaving for sure Skooby. Sabres will stay though, so you will still have something to do all day, no worries. Then there is always UB football. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 PTR, Whats the interest payment on $3 billion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 PTR, Whats the interest payment on $3 billion? $94M/yr @ 5% over 30 years. Why? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 $94M/yr @ 5% over 30 years. Why? PTR Because that is what it will cost to move the Bills to Toronto. It would cost more than $2 billion to move anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bflobarry Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 As someone who had season tickets the last couple years and as someone who works in the development field, I think there is plenty of money here to support this team. They don't need everyone in WNY, all 1.2 milloin of us, to be independently wealthy, they need 70,000 to be in good shape and a handful of viable businesses. RW's problem is he refuses to raise the prices to see what the market will bear when in fact, most would agree not only that they're cheap but that they'd pay more. Even more, with the advent of Stubhub and other brokerages that have no problem get much higher prices for tickets, it would seem that this region can pay more. Is a 16th row seat on the 50 yeard line behind the Bills bench for a MNF a $70 ticket while a Sabres ticket for a meaningless game in December on a Thursday sells for more? You can't tell me that we can't and we won't. RW's idea is simple: continue to talk down the region to attract an out of state buyer willing to pay a higher price because he feels he needs to move it, which puts more money in the greedy curmudgeon's family's pockets. I'm hoping he gets booed as loudly as possible at the HOF ceremony. I know 4 people who are going that are hoping that RW is inducted last and Bruce right before it so they can all walk out proudly in their Bills jerseys before RW's induction! Hey Pal: That Greedy Curmudgeon" has provided us w/ our soul and a heightened quality of life in WNY and beyond for 50 years. He easily could have walked, often, for more $. I say "Thank you, Ralph". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The options are: $1 billion to keep the team in Buffalo $3+ billion to move them to Toronto $2.5+ billion to move them to LA Not to mention the interest rate the owner gets will be outrageously high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhg Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 says the author of innumerable baseless, mindless, useless threads, full of unfounded speculation and false edicts from an imaginary walter mitty-like existence in SW florida, driving a imagination-powered toy car, sans brains...sans mind...sans wit...sans everything... in a few short months you've gone from brash, insulting, and condescending, to stupidly annoying - all from a high speed internet connection in your mom's basement honestly, it really is about time for you to go away for awhile, until you can reinvent yourself yet again, under yet another new screen name Couldn't have said it any better. You speak for a lot of us. Thank you. Awesome post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bflobarry Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Anyone who thnks Ralph is greedy or somehow scheming to make the Bills bad so they are easier to move is at worst crazy and at least ungrateful to a an owner who's heart is in the right place. If Ralph really were the greedy SOB some of you accuse him of being this team would be gone 10 years ago. Ralph Wilson could have sold the Bills and made 10 times more money than he makes now and he wouldn't have to put up with moronic comments like these. And while the Bills were in Buffalo tickets and parking would 2-3x higher. As for the Bills being bad, I think Ralph as much as any of us wants a winner. He just doesn't know how to build one. True he had Bill Polian here and fired him, but we don't really know what Bill did to piss off Ralph. Polian wasn't known for his people skills. Since then we've had John Butler who was a Polian disciple, Tom Donahoe who was supposed to be such a football guru, then Marv who was supposed to ressurect the 90's Bills. All have failed. Now Ralph probably feels like he can't make a good decision so he's just going to stick with what he has an hope for the best. I think when you are in your 90's and your end can occur at any moment, your perspective on things changes. The whining of frustrated fans doesn't mean so much, especially when your daughter goes before you do. Despite what many say here, there is little Ralph can really do to absolutely guarantee the Bills stay in Buffalo. Like so many of you Republican-types like to point out we live in a market economy and businesses should be free to make the most money they can. So why do you expect any new owner of the Bills to keep the team here when they can make double in L.A.? It sucks but enjoy the Bills while we have them. Maybe we end up splitting the team with Toronto if we're lucky. PTR Great, cogent post. Dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 QUOTE (The Senator @ May 13 2009, 09:14 AM) says the author of innumerable baseless, mindless, useless threads, full of unfounded speculation and false edicts from an imaginary walter mitty-like existence in SW florida, driving a imagination-powered toy car, sans brains...sans mind...sans wit...sans everything... in a few short months you've gone from brash, insulting, and condescending, to stupidly annoying - all from a high speed internet connection in your mom's basement honestly, it really is about time for you to go away for awhile, until you can reinvent yourself yet again, under yet another new screen name Couldn't have said it any better. You speak for a lot of us. Thank you. Awesome post. Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I would have to do some serious research but I think no ther NFL market has fewer major corporations based in it than Buffalo. And while Buffalo is modestly profitable now, it's that way because Wilson owes no money on the Bills. Anyone having to carry debt service on several hundred million in purchase financing would be drowning in red ink. And you are correct in saying that there are at least a dozen NFL markets that are not much better than Buffalo. Several of them like New Orleans, Minnesota and Jacksonville are mentioned in relocation rumors as well. But it's also true that Buffalo charges the least for tickets, suites and luxury seating. The difference is this is not the NFL of Pete Rozelle, it's the NFL of Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones...owners who don't care one bit about a strong league and parity. All they care about is squeezing every last golden egg from the goose. They see $$$ in places like Las Vegas, L.A. and Toronto and they can't understand why they can't flip a few franchises to cash in? I thought the current economic crises would put a damper on such things but seeing some of the deals signed lately you'd never know there was a recession. PTR What the Jones/Snyder guys care most about is money. The question is whether a Bills team that is gonna be sold when Ralphie passes on creates more money for the Snyders and other team owners by cashing in to get 1/31 st of a franchise fee, or their is more money to be made by selling the team to the highest bidder that is going to keep the team in Buffalo. The Jeopardy answer is..... Who knows? The thing that is amusing about the posts that declare it a stone cold certainty that the Bills are gone is that there is this little thing called reality which will bias the situation strongly one way or the other 1.Even Ralph will not be able to control things because he will be suffering from this little thing called death after he is gone. He can strongly bias the Bills to leaving by dying intestate with no will like Joe Robbie did or he can strongly bias it toward keeping the team here by doing something like leaving the team to not-for-profit as an irrevocable trust which allows his heirs to both avoid substantial estate taxes while maintaining some degree of control over the asset and even gets a steady source of income depending on how he sets up the trustees. Alternately, Ralph has the money to hire a boatload of trust and estate lawyers to construct a legal scheme which falls somewhere in between selling the Bills to the highest bidder (likely some out of town money bag) or even secretly as 100% owner of the team having agreed to something which binds the Bills here forever. 2. Even beyond the situation which Ralph leaves in his will another wild card is when he happens to happens to go to great beyond. If its a semi-long exit with him clearly going to leave but not yet, this may give extra impetus to someone being able to put together a collaborative that can bid for the team (even this outcome can be good for a Kelly led group but may be bad for another municipality to put together a bid. If Ralph kicks off just after some other city undergoes a trauma like the one which galvanized Cleveland this will likely have direct impact on whether a move makes sense or can be done. 3. The status of current NFL to expand their product into where the REAL new money is with efforts to penetrate the European, Mexico City and even Asian markets will have a marked impact on a Bills move. Perhaps the status of timing of this potentially hugely profitable move impacts a Bills move when Ralph does as possibly making it more likely the team may move if their are overseas bidders who would want a "real" team or actually less likely if in the face of trying to get a major investment into a team, a recently moved Bills team would provide a real wold lesson that one may not want to get over-attached to your new franchise because the NFL has proven that selling 50,000+ season ticket base and rabid support does not guarantee that a team will stay put in your town. 4. A zillion other things I am not thinking of, My sense is that this is too uncertain to make a bet (and actually with the current economic meltdown and drying up of the credit market it likely will be several years before the crew to buy a team could be put together. My GUESS is that if Ralph dies tomorrow the bird in the hand of 50,000+ season ticket holders looks pretty good when seeing all the empty premium ticket seats in Yankee Stadium. My guess is if Ralph dies soon then the highest bidder coming from someone who keeps the tesm here becomes a greater likelihood. However, declaring the team gone for sure (or to stay for sure) is a fairly silly prediction. The stay position is the default which only gets the nod most clearly due the current uncertainty making buying and moving the team just too big a risk to be credit worthy or even for a Bill Gates to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Bottom line is football is a product. Ralph puts a quality product on the field, people will pay for that product. People will pay top dollar to watch a winning football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 The options are: $1 billion to keep the team in Buffalo $3+ billion to move them to Toronto $2.5+ billion to move them to LA Not to mention the interest rate the owner gets will be outrageously high. Exactly......everyone thinking the Bills are going to Toronto has to think about the cost of going to Toronto...$3B ($1B for the team+$1B for the new stadium + 600-800M for the relocation fee from this market). Say an owner puts down 1B...not likely in today's climate!!! Not many people with liquid assets of that amount who want to pay that....so they still at 5% interest would need to pay 100M/year just on interest...that's it..without tapping the 2B in principal. The Bills are NOT leaving!!! Keep in mind people when you talk about hte Bills you have to figure in 1.2M people of Buffalo/Niagara, 1.1M of Rochester and another roughly 1.5M Southern Ontario population just from Hamilton on South and not even tapping the Toronto market. All within an hour's drive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIE HARD 1967 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 If some of you guys would take on 2 or 3 jobs that problem would be solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Rob Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 You post too much...thanks! If he post too much what would you say you are doing with 4000 more posts than him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak tree 12 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Is the income potential of the locals, just like Ralph said. Ralph mentioned that there is not a strong enough economy currently in place to support a normal NFL ticket price, based on someone else owning the team & the initial expenses of buying a NFL team. So what he was really saying is (in the nicest way), a majority of the people that live there are incapable of doing much past menial work for menial wages to earn a normal professional living and even if they could the jobs are just not there in the first place. Sadly, upon Ralph's death I think we lost our team unless Ralph sells it ahead of time to a group capable of holding out for a better time. After 30 + years of local depression, who knows when that will come as well. as a season ticket holder of over 30 years i think ticket prices should be and will be increased when the team is sold. actually Ralph gets ripped a lot around here but the price of our ticket is a joke. go around the league and in most of the NFL cities you could not sit in the end zone for what we are paying to sit on the 50 yard line 28 rows up in the bowl. then Ralph gets ripped for not signing every big name free agent out there. if he raised the ticket price $20 on every ticket then maybe he would be able to compete better but then everyone would bitc-. go to NE or NY where parking a mile from the stadium is $50 bucks and tickets are 2 to 3 times as much as ours are and you will see how fortunate we are yet we constantly rip the guy. You cant have it both ways fellas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 If he post too much what would you say you are doing with 4000 more posts than him? his post quality is much higher, though...not a hard task when comparing to Scooby's drivel as a season ticket holder of over 30 years i think ticket prices should be and will be increased when the team is sold. actually Ralph gets ripped a lot around here but the price of our ticket is a joke. go around the league and in most of the NFL cities you could not sit in the end zone for what we are paying to sit on the 50 yard line 28 rows up in the bowl. then Ralph gets ripped for not signing every big name free agent out there. if he raised the ticket price $20 on every ticket then maybe he would be able to compete better but then everyone would bitc-. go to NE or NY where parking a mile from the stadium is $50 bucks and tickets are 2 to 3 times as much as ours are and you will see how fortunate we are yet we constantly rip the guy. You cant have it both ways fellas. Couple of things The only people ripping Ralph for not signing every big name free agent out there are total idiots for a few reasons 1...Ralph isn't the GM...he signs off on deals but he's not the one deciding who the Bills are looking to sign 2...There's a salary cap in place...we can't sign every big name out there...the league wouldn't allow it 3...We sign plenty of players for big money..to say we don't is beyond idiotic. Do the players we sign deserve that money? Not always...but it sure as hell has nothing to do with what we spend on players...it has to do with making the right choices in selecting players to bring in...we can B word about wasting money on players like Dockery and Kelsay, but all we're doing is proving that we're good at hindsight. When the players were give those big deals, they were expected to live up to them. If anyone knew without a shadow of a doubt that they wouldn't, you sure as hell better be rich off of lotto winnings because you'd have to be psychic to know that. Can people please get a basic education on how players are paid in the NFL? Ticket prices have NOTHING, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, to do with how much we can pay players. The player salary cap is approximately 60% of shared revenue...which includes merchandising and television deals. We could pay an average of $500 a ticket and it wouldn't allow us to spend more than $128M on player salaries this year...so stop with the ticket price-player salaries links....it's mind-numbing how stupid that idea is. As far as how ticket prices in Buffalo compare to those in NYC or NE, learn some basics about economics. We pay significantly less for things in Buffalo than we would in those other places....because that's what the market can afford. A person making $26K a year in Buffalo would have to make over $46K in NYC to maintain his standard of living Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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