EndZoneCrew Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 We have to think about the injury concern!!!!!!...if we pay semi-big bucks for Jennings he NEEDS to be healthy...that just will NOT happen....if anything we should sign Williams to a moderate contract then move Teague back to tackle and get a real "center" in here!!! Any thoughts????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 From what I have read (Thanks to our resident cap expert) we will have a good amount of cap room This offseason. I might franchise him. Yeah I know blah blah blah, but what if we get two 2nds for him? WE NEED the draft picks for this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted November 2, 2004 Author Share Posted November 2, 2004 From what I have read (Thanks to our resident cap expert) we will have a good amount of cap room This offseason. I might franchise him. Yeah I know blah blah blah, but what if we get two 2nds for him? WE NEED the draft picks for this offseason. 96266[/snapback] Do you think teams would want him that bad? He is definately not worth top-5 $$$$$.....so if other teams fail to show interest in him....TD can just lift the tag and say au revoir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 You can always package him like you would normally do AND A player like Sam Adams for a 1st round pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 F.. F.. F.. F.... Franchise JJ? No way then we get stuck paying his injured ass Odgen type money? NO NO NO!!!!!!!!! Thats way to risky for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted November 2, 2004 Author Share Posted November 2, 2004 good idea....but I do not see it happening....we NEED to draft a center, that goes without question...Teague can move, I can see him being at least an average tackle...and with JPL in the lineup, it won't be as glaring of a problem because he will not just absorb those hits like a sponge (like some people we know. )..he will get the hell out of the way, like he should! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 F.. F.. F.. F.... Franchise JJ? No way then we get stuck paying his injured ass Odgen type money? NO NO NO!!!!!!!!! Thats way to risky for me. 96282[/snapback] Tdog, All you have to do is take the tag off of him. We get it back and immediately free up the cap room. We wont do it of course, but I would. I am 100% against letting players with any value go for nothing. Understand something here folks...some of you laugh at FT Jennings. There ARE Teams that would surrender picks for him. Ryan leaf got 3 chances in this league. Teams feel they can salvage someone elses guys. Jennings is good when healthy. I am sure some teams Training staff is calling ours idiots and can convince a front office they can "heal" him. I say tag him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Tdog, All you have to do is take the tag off of him. We get it back and immediately free up the cap room. We wont do it of course, but I would. I am 100% against letting players with any value go for nothing. Understand something here folks...some of you laugh at FT Jennings. There ARE Teams that would surrender picks for him. Ryan leaf got 3 chances in this league. Teams feel they can salvage someone elses guys. Jennings is good when healthy. I am sure some teams Training staff is calling ours idiots and can convince a front office they can "heal" him. I say tag him. 96289[/snapback] Maybe I don't understand the FT completely? I thought that when you designated a franchise player you guaranteed him one year with a salary equivalent to average of the top five paid players at that specific position and the entire salary counts against that years cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Maybe I don't understand the FT completely? I thought that when you designated a franchise player you guaranteed him one year with a salary equivalent to average of the top five paid players at that specific position. 96293[/snapback] Now add this to the end of what you just said... "Unless you TRADE the player or pull the FT". You were right, just not completely What it does is take that # out of your cap. THEN you can go spend money. But if you trade him (See peerless price) you get that cap room back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeRay Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 From what I have read (Thanks to our resident cap expert) we will have a good amount of cap room This offseason. I might franchise him. Yeah I know blah blah blah, but what if we get two 2nds for him? WE NEED the draft picks for this offseason. Let's look at this realistically, OK. Jennings becomes a FA. If he gets franchised, that means the Bills must automatically commit about $8M toward the salary cap (avg. of the top 5 LTs). Is Jennings worth that kind of money??? Well, when you consider he's never played a full season and he's not proven to be in the same league as Jon Ogden, Willie Roaf, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Trezell Jenkins, he just doesn't cut it. Is he even in the top 10? Well, I'd rather have Mike Pearson, Jason Fabini, Todd Steussie, Barrett Robbins, and Todd Light... So, I don't think Jennings mesures up to those guys well either. Even if he were in the top 10, and you hope to get some sort of compensation for losing him to FA, the only option would be to name him your transition player and hope some team is stupid enough to give up a late 1st rounder for him... maybe Atlanta... I don't know. I do know that Jennings has demonstrated not to be the long term answer at LT for the Bills. My idea of a solid LT is one that plays at least 2 full back to back seasons and makes a noticeable difference in the team's offense. I don't see either with Jennings.... Marcus Price comes in for him and I don't notice a difference in the offense... it's still bad. My bottom line is... I think the Bills should onlt re-sign Jennings only at a reasonable salary... and I would say a reasonable salary would be the average wage for a top 20 starting LT... definitely not any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I'm not exactly sure how the franchise tag works, but what if they do tag him and Jennings and his agent want to sign that contract as soon as it hits the table ? Do the Bills have to go through or can they take it back ? And nobody will give you a #1 for two older/injury prone players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Once again I find myself agreeing with Ice. Hopefully, we can get something for him and then sign somebody else to play LT. JJ has had some good games, some bad games and has been injured way too often. I don't think that Teague is the answer at LT either. OL has been the biggest reason that we are 2-5. Our defense and ST have played great this year. I think that if we had a solid OL, we would be closer to 5-2 at this point. Mike Williams cost us this year by coming to camp in such lousy shape. Then Teague gets hurt, JJ gets hurt and we put in Smith at LG. If we had been better able to run and protect DB better, things would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I would not be opposed to the Bills using the tag on JJ. As stated it would surely be a way to recoup something for him if indeed he does want to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I would not be opposed to the Bills using the tag on JJ. As stated it would surely be a way to recoup something for him if indeed he does want to leave. 96975[/snapback] What if he wants to stay at 8 million ? To much for someone who can't stay on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 What if he wants to stay at 8 million ? To much for someone who can't stay on the field. 97074[/snapback] True, but for one year it wouldn't kill us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamOnDan Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I agree with Ice, but I have to say I don't want him back next year. I would rather have somebody almost as good but stays healthy. If TD breaks the bank for anybody I hope it is a couple of lineman. McNally is clearly frustrated with our overall talent on the line. You don't put Sam and Bannan in for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted November 2, 2004 Author Share Posted November 2, 2004 I agree with Ice, but I have to say I don't want him back next year. I would rather have somebody almost as good but stays healthy. If TD breaks the bank for anybody I hope it is a couple of lineman. McNally is clearly frustrated with our overall talent on the line. You don't put Sam and Bannan in for fun. 97155[/snapback] Nothing like franchising an injury prone average LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Nothing like franchising an injury prone average LT 97165[/snapback] Well it's kinda complicated because really the only reason he's considered average is because of the frequent injuries. Otherwise he has shown that when healthy he is above average at both pass and run blocking. He is (when healthy) often left on an island and has faired quite well vs. some of the better pass rushers in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Well it's kinda complicated because really the only reason he's considered average is because of the frequent injuries. Otherwise he has shown that when healthy he is above average at both pass and run blocking. He is (when healthy) often left on an island and has faired quite well vs. some of the better pass rushers in the game. 97181[/snapback] I disagree. He's the definition of average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I disagree. He's the definition of average. 97184[/snapback] examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Did you miss the Abraham bus rolling through the Meadowlands a couple of weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 examples? 97187[/snapback] I would rank him between 11-20 at his position in the league. That's the definition of average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Did you miss the Abraham bus rolling through the Meadowlands a couple of weeks ago. 97189[/snapback] nope. that is the easy choice for a lazy detractor. He played with a bum leg and was still suffering the effects of a concussion. My point was made and included the words "when healthy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Key words " when healthy". You don't pay a guy 8 mill. to play 12 games a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinVA Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I would rank him between 11-20 at his position in the league. That's the definition of average. 97192[/snapback] I'd have to disagree and say that is above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 nope. that is the easy choice for a lazy detractor. He played with a bum leg and was still suffering the effects of a concussion. My point was made and included the words "when healthy". 97194[/snapback] Great, so he's above average before the first game. Injuries are a HUGE factor with Jennings and severely limit his effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 If he's willing to do something in the 3-4 mill. range then let's talk, if not, have a good time in Atlanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I would rank him between 11-20 at his position in the league. That's the definition of average. 97192[/snapback] considering there are 64 starting tackles in the league, I'd say he's above average. If you're talking purely left tackles (which doesn't really make as much difference as it used to considering formation shifts) and you have him at 11-20, I can see your point. One other tthought on this IMO is that there are @ 20 above average starting left tackles in the league right now. I guess it's all how you look at it. I'd probably rank him @ 18-20 of all starting tackles in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Great, so he's above average before the first game. Injuries are a HUGE factor with Jennings and severely limit his effectiveness. 97199[/snapback] I agree with you. Now we all see the complexity of the situation. If there is a team out there who sees his ability and downplays the injury factor, then we (as ICE suggests) may be able to atleast get something for him by going the franchise route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 If he's willing to do something in the 3-4 mill. range then let's talk, if not, have a good time in Atlanta. 97203[/snapback] This is assuming that Atlanta would want to overpay him. It is a shame the way his career went down. Jennings (imo) is a VERY GOOD, however injury prone RT, who is playing out of position. He will never be an elite LT, and has no business being paid as one. Honestly, I think he could also be a pro-bowl guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted November 2, 2004 Author Share Posted November 2, 2004 Great, so he's above average before the first game. Injuries are a HUGE factor with Jennings and severely limit his effectiveness. 97199[/snapback] great point AD!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Tdog, All you have to do is take the tag off of him. We get it back and immediately free up the cap room. We wont do it of course, but I would. I am 100% against letting players with any value go for nothing. Understand something here folks...some of you laugh at FT Jennings. There ARE Teams that would surrender picks for him. Ryan leaf got 3 chances in this league. Teams feel they can salvage someone elses guys. Jennings is good when healthy. I am sure some teams Training staff is calling ours idiots and can convince a front office they can "heal" him. I say tag him. 96289[/snapback] My understanding of the tag is this: 1. The tag does lock a player into only negotiating with the team which originally has his rights and the choices are either make a deal or pay the player a salary without a bonus which is the average of the top 5 salaries for the franchise tag and the top 10 salaries for the transition tag. 2. The tag is a tender of an offer to a player, thus, if a player accepts the tender the club is bound to that contract. 3. The tag can be withdrawn by the team at any time IF the player has not accepted this tender. 4. Teams do not like to offer tenders through tags and players do not like to be tagged because both parties can generally make a far better deal for themselves through negotiation. Teams hate the tag because the cap hit for the salary is immediate and severely limits the room to negotiate which comes from paying a player an even larger amount of money but doing as much as possible as bonus so that the amount can be pro-rated over the life of the contract. Player's hate the tag because they can get much more money upfront and overall by negotiating a deal with a sizable bonus. What ICE suggests in terms of using the tag is generally not done in the NFL because it would not be the best deal for either party which can be done and because it exposes both parties to significant risks. The Bills would immediately have a huge burden on their cap which limits their room to operate. Further they run the risk that the cap figure for an OL player is so large that Jennings might actually accept this deal and the Bills are locked into it whether they want to withdraw or not. Jennings would likely not want this deal because he would be paid a large amount of money under it, but it would come on a per game basis rather than in a big chunk as a prorated bonus. In fact, were he to be cut prior to the 2nd week of the season he would not be entitled to the bulk of the money, though after the second week he would be guranteed all the money whether the Bills kept him or not. In sum total, if the Bills were to cap and pay Jennings they would essentially being going to war with this player. Worse, the huge cap hit would totally restrict TDs ability to negotiate other deals within the cap and build a team. For Jennings, he suddenly finds himself locked into a team who his contract hamstrings their ability to build a winner. Personally, what pays for him is to take as few risks as possible with his fragile body until after the 3nd week when the money is guaranteed. If the Bills attempted to use the tag purely as a negotiating tactic with the player, they run the risk that he will accept the deal really destroying the team's prospects for 2005. Alternately, they can bet he will not do this to his teammates (though the cap number for OL players is so high, if the Bills were going to stop me from going home and eliminate my contractual ability to negotiate, I might well accept their tender out of spite, make sure I didn't risk injury but didn't get blamed too much for lollygagging and take the big contract and see if they want to do it agin next year or let me go anyway but with big bucks now in my pocket. Even worse for the Bills as they attempt to attract FAs to the frozen tudra, they now will have to do this with a rep for playing hardball in contract negotiations. If they play hardball with Jennings it is questionable whether FAs like Spikes, Adams, Posey etcetera will choose to come here. ICE's tag proposal is fraught with risk and will force TD to go to war in building this team rather than doing what he has done in the past which is attract players here and actually get them to sign less lucrative contracts than they could have gotten elsewhere. Tags are applied in specific cases, and usually with a pretty good explanation by the team doing the tagging to the player tagged why this approach will actually result in both sides making out like bandits. An example of this is the Price tag and deal. Falcons owner Arthur Blank made the mistake of publicly promising to get Price in particular. He did this as it greatly satisfied his big investment Vick that the Falcs were going to pay for WRs for him and AT fans of the same. TG, seemingly with total communication with Price and his agent put the transition tag on Price because Blank had already guranteed that he would pay through the nose for him. Price seemed to operate in a manner where he expressed the appropriate dismay at getting tagged, but made a deal through the Bills with the Falcs that allowed him to be paid big bucks to go home. Unless you see some similar scenario for cooperation between Jennings and the Bills with some third party paying Jennings and the Bills to do what they want to do I do not see your scenario happening at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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