thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 1. This is a discussion on Gruden... 2. DJ had NO personell input in Chi, so I love how you say he had 5 years to bring in talent when he wasnt THE GM...the fact that you just said that statement just shows it just wont be possible to have an intelligent conversation about this with you because you dont even understand what a HC does or doesnt do... 3. And he didnt have much talent in Chi and his team did OVER acheive that 13-3 year (good trait for a coach too) which is why he won coach of the year...much like how when we were OVER achieving this year with a 5-1 start and he was again in the running for coach of the year...much like winning 7 games in 07 was a major over achievement after all the losses to personnel we took and having all those problems at QB and why he was mentioned in coach of the year honors most of the that year and it was considered to be one of the better coaching jobs in the league in 07. But enough about DJ...say what you want about him, that doesnt change the fact that Gruden is an over rated HC and will have a tough time finding work... Would you be willing to show proof to your pure speculation that Jauron had no input into who was brought into that Bears team,or ya just wanna keep blowing hot air. The Bills don't have a GM!.....GOOD LORD HOW WILL THEY BE ABLE TO BRING IN ANYONE The OP brought Jauron into it: I always thought Gruden was a bit Smug! How about Rice calling him names and saying he has no integrity! He took Dungy's players and won a Bowl, not much since but a downward spiral! What do you think our players will have to say about Jauron once he gets the Axe? I'l start with " Nice guy, No BALLS! " DJ has proven to me he sucks with those "calls" late in this season. I'd take Gruden over him any day,the guy actually has a brain! I'm about sick of Jauron and him being a players coach,I'll take someone who the players hate, but wins super bowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Would you be willing to show proof to your pure speculation that Jauron had no input into who was brought into that Bears team,or ya just wanna keep blowing hot air. The Bills don't have a GM!.....GOOD LORD HOW WILL THEY BE ABLE TO BRING IN ANYONE The OP brought Jauron into it: DJ has proven to me he sucks with those "calls" late in this season. I'd take Gruden over him any day,the guy actually has a brain! I'm about sick of Jauron and him being a players coach,I'll take someone who the players hate but wins super bowls DJ isnt as bad as the fans hate him...not my favorite either, but not as bad as he is made out to be IMO. Gruden is over rated IMO... And I bet those of you over stating the input DJ had on personnel decisions are the same ones posting that Buffalo cant get ahead because we dont have a true football GM... So which is it? The GM or the Coach that has the most impact on personell? Make up your mind becasue the posters on this board keep switching it around to make their points...and it gets old. Why do you think most Head Coaches in this league have generally done worse once they acheived a certain level of success that allowed them to take on being both a GM and HC in their next job? Because its TOO much to do...HC and assistant coaches have input but when it comes to scouting and drafting they rely heavily on the scouting department and the GM... But, of course you NOW want to ignore that fact and say because we are talking about DJ you want to exaggerate his impact in that department to now hold him accountable for poor draft decisions by Bears and Bills. Some coaches acheive that level of input and even seek out to get that level of power over personell, but it often back fires and rarely works... Holmgren even stepped down from his GM spot because he couldnt effectively do both...what happened next? The Seahawks made the Super Bowl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Really? Dick had NO personnel input at all in Chicago? His work was done once the Bears' season ended? They gave him draft weekend off? Told him "thanks, but we've got this under control" when Dick expressed interest in potential free agents? Chucky will have trouble finding work? Super Bowl winning coaches - even ones who lucked into the perfect storm of talent and destiny that all they had to do was stay out of the way and not !@#$ it up - are still fairly rare and will get another shot. I really can't tell if this is Dick, Dick's wife or mother, or a spurned ex-TB player cut by Chucky posting under Alphadawg's screen name. Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Hmmm, you mean the same Gregg Williams that was in so much demand that Sean Payton took money out of his own pocket to bring him to NO this next season? Hmmm...how many teams are trying to get Gruden in the NFL right now...um ZERO...not even as a coordinator So do you think its possible your estimation of Williams is a little low? Williams got a raw deal here and mark my words...he WILL be a HC in 2010 if he makes any impact on that NO defense in 2009. His time in Buffalo is looked at as a raw deal and a better coach than his time here showed...I actually think he can turn out to be a pretty good coach given the right opportunity... This is how many teams in how many years for GW? He will not be a HC in this league anytime soon, if ever. Gruden will resurface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'll take someone who the players hate, but wins super bowls Why is that plural? He won 1 with a ready built team that could have won with many other coaches...thats like proclaiming you are a great gardener because you succesfully grew a Chia Pet then proceeded to kill everything else in your garden... Funny, NO ONE here has answered my question: Can you say that Tampa Bay won the SB that year BECUASE of Gruden and that no other available coach, including Dungy, would have been able to win THAT year with that TEAM? Unless you can say ONLY Gruden was capable of winning with that team, then your argument is dead and that completely devalues your only leg to stand on...his "right place at the right time" SB win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 This is how many teams in how many years for GW? He will not be a HC in this league anytime soon, if ever. Gruden will resurface. Funny, when they broke the story about how Sean Payton gave a quarter of a million dollars of his OWN money to get Williams, they were talking about how respected he is in the league and about how if he can make any impact in NO he would once again become a hot HC candidate... Then again...I am sure your insight on his coaching abilities is greater than those across the NFL, including Sean Payton...so you are right, the guy being talked about as highly as Williams has no shot to get another HC job... By the way, I didnt say Gruden wont resurface...I said he wont have an easy time getting a job, especially a HC job, in the near future in the ranks of the NFL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Alright, this is too much idiocy for me to deal with all at once, so we'll break it down. Just because you say something is a "FACT" doesn't actually make it a fact. TB did NOT get the SB because of Gruden...geezus, I just love how people like to over estimate. For anyone to say that means you are implying that TB was NOT capable of winning the SB that year with any other coach other than Gruden. No one here has claimed that Gruden was the only reason that TB went to the SB that year. But, Gruden played a large role in getting the team over the hump. For some reason, your myopic view on this is extremely black and white. Your OPINION that either gruden did everything or did nothing is incorrect. There are shades of gray in between, but you're having a difficult time grasping this simple concept. FACT: TB was a big SB favorite before Gruden took over. Yes, TB was a SB favorite that season, along with a few other teams in the NFC. Gruden took over a good team. However, Oakland was a SB favorite in the AFC, so what is your point? FACT: There are a lot of coaches that could have won the SB that year coaching TB. This in an unprovable fact. Its impossible to say who or what coach would have won/lost games with Tampa. Parcells had the handshake deal to coach the Buccs before he backed out of it, forcing Tampa into a corner. Any coach was going to take over a team with a load of talent, but that doesn;t mean any coach can win with a team. Example: Wade Phillips in Dallas. FACT: Dungy is a SB winning coach and there is NO reason to suggest he wouldnt have been able to also win if he stayed in TB that year. Does it mean he would have...no...but he definitiely would have had a legitimate shot. Yes, there is reason to believe that Dungy couldn't get it done. He hadn't gotten it done previously. His teams always struggled offensively, and Dungy just couldn't get the Buccs over the hump in the playoffs. And what does Dungy winning the SB have anything to do with his time in Tampa? As good of a coach as Dungy is, Indy was loaded with talent and had the best QB in the game. Why do you trash gruden for "winning with someone else's players" and then praise Dungy for doing the exact same thing in Indy? FACT: TB was immensely talented, especially on defense. Yes, we've been over this. They also had offensive troubles, and that was the main reason Dungy got canned. He just couldn't get the offense up to par with the defense. You either are in love with Chucky dolls or dont know much about football if you think TB won BECAUSE of Gruden and that he is responsible for bringing them a trophy. He did not build that team in Oakland, and he won with Dungys team in TB then ruined it and the franchise over the next 7 years... How can you say that he didn't build the oakland team? Prior to Gruden, oakland was 8-8, 7-9, and 4-12. With Gruden, the Raiders went 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, and 10-6. They made 2 playoff appearances, advancing to the AFC championship in 2000, and technically advancing to the AFC championship in 2001 (i say technically, because they had the pats* game won until the bull sh-- tuck rule). Also, Rich Gannon exploded under Gruden's guidance. Gannon had thrown for more than 12 TDs once in his 12 year career. Then all of a sudden he explodes to become a top 3 QB under Gruden. Whats the explanation for that? Overnight, Gannon just got that good randomly overnight, 12 years into a career where he had been a back the entire time? vor he got hooked up with a good coach who knew how to build and run an offense? So how does Gruden get no credit for building the Raiders? And if he doesnt, they who does? As for Tampa, you fully blame Gruden for running the team inot the ground, as if its gruden's fault the Buccs gave up 2 1st rounders and 2 seconds to get him. That's a horrible situation to put any coach in, and they are going to have a tough time overcoming it. All in all, with an aging defense, Gruden had 4 winning seasons, made the playoffs 3 times, and won the division 3 times. Not too shabby for 7 years work. Gruden probably rubbed a lot of players the wrong way; his style tends to do that. When you're winning, no one cares, but when you lose your last 4 to miss the playoffs, heads are gonna roll. Similar situation to coughlin. And theres a good argument to be made that firing Gruden was the right move. However, claiming that gruden did nothing tampa except run the team into the ground is nothing but a complete fabrication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Funny, when they broke the story about how Sean Payton gave a quarter of a million dollars of his OWN money to get Williams, they were talking about how respected he is in the league and about how if he can make any impact in NO he would once again become a hot HC candidate... Then again...I am sure your insight on his coaching abilities is greater than those across the NFL, including Sean Payton...so you are right, the guy being talked about as highly as Williams has no shot to get another HC job... By the way, I didnt say Gruden wont resurface...I said he wont have an easy time getting a job, especially a HC job, in the near future in the ranks of the NFL... If Greggggo is so respected and highly thought of, why didn't he get the redskins coaching job? Why did he only last 1 season in jacksonville? And Gruden will be back as an NFL head coach within 2 years. Most likely, he'll be coaching again in 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Sounds about right. I can easily think of 20 coaches around the NFL from last season that would have had the Bills at 9-7 or 10-6. In fact, its highly likely that Jauron was severely restricting the talent on that team from performing to its potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 DJ isnt as bad as the fans hate him...not my favorite either, but not as bad as he is made out to be IMO. Gruden is over rated IMO... And I bet those of you over stating the input DJ had on personnel decisions are the same ones posting that Buffalo cant get ahead because we dont have a true football GM... So which is it? The GM or the Coach that has the most impact on personell? Make up your mind becasue the posters on this board keep switching it around to make their points...and it gets old. Why do you think most Head Coaches in this league have generally done worse once they acheived a certain level of success that allowed them to take on being both a GM and HC in their next job? Because its TOO much to do...HC and assistant coaches have input but when it comes to scouting and drafting they rely heavily on the scouting department and the GM... But, of course you NOW want to ignore that fact and say because we are talking about DJ you want to exaggerate his impact in that department to now hold him accountable for poor draft decisions by Bears and Bills. Some coaches acheive that level of input and even seek out to get that level of power over personell, but it often back fires and rarely works... Holmgren even stepped down from his GM spot because he couldnt effectively do both...what happened next? The Seahawks made the Super Bowl... I'm still awaiting the proof that shows that you know Jauron had no input into the talent brought into that Bears team. You made a statement,now back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 If Greggggo is so respected and highly thought of, why didn't he get the redskins coaching job? Why did he only last 1 season in jacksonville? And Gruden will be back as an NFL head coach within 2 years. Most likely, he'll be coaching again in 2010. He didnt stay in Jax because Jack Del Rio needed a scape goat to save his job...and why are you debating his demand when it was clearly documented this offseason as several teams were tying to land him and Sean Payton took a quarter of a million dollars out of his own pocket to lure him? It isnt speculation, its what happened and yet you still argue against it...geezus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 He didnt stay in Jax because Jack Del Rio needed a scape goat to save his job...and why are you debating his demand when it was clearly documented this offseason as several teams were tying to land him and Sean Payton took a quarter of a million dollars out of his own pocket to lure him? It isnt speculation, its what happened and yet you still argue against it...geezus... the term is escape goat you moron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Sounds about right. I can easily think of 20 coaches around the NFL from last season that would have had the Bills at 9-7 or 10-6. In fact, its highly likely that Jauron was severely restricting the talent on that team from performing to its potential. I agree In fact, I think if Bill Belichick swapped teams with Jauron, the Bills would have won the division and made the playoffs at 12-4 . The post was directed at PushthePile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 the term is escape goat you moron google "scapegoat" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm still awaiting the proof that shows that you know Jauron had no input into the talent brought into that Bears team. You made a statement,now back it up. Serisously? Wow... My point was that he was NOT the GM...geezus...I dont know even why I respond to your posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Players brought in during Jauron's tenure in Chicago include Mart Booker, Rosevelt Colvin, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, Charles Tillman, Anthony Thomas, Marc Columbo, and Alex Brown. I guess by your estimation the guy knows talent, huh? He also took over a team that went 4-12 back to back before he came in. It seems to me that maybe you should look into these things before posting. He also won coach of the year while in Chicago. The team he lost to in the playoffs was the Eagles team that went to four straight NFC championships. Lovie Smith did an outstanding job with the Bears superbowl team and alot of those players came from Jauron's time in Chicago. Did you even read my post, or just go off half-cocked and start typing a reply without reading it? Alphadawg said that Dick had NO input into personnel while he was in Chicago, and all I did was question that. I never said anything about the guys brought in, who pursued/signed them, who was the true talent evaluator or anything. Just pointing out that the idea that DJ had NO input into personnel matters was laughable. Surprisingly I did know about Jauron's one-hit wonder year in Chicago, where he won COTY honors and took the Bears to his only playff appearance as a HC (a loss) followed by a quick return to reality for DJ and Da Bears, going 5-11 and then 6-10 in his last two years. The 13-3/COTY year was an aberration, nothing more. For the most part I usually like what you post, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume you meant to respond to someone else. Otherwise I think you might want to look into a course in reading comprehension before posting. OH, now your stating that the Bears did Indeed have talent and Jauron didn't know how to utilize it,but Lovie Smith did? Another shining example of the circular logic of DJ defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 google "scapegoat" Yet another one reeled in by the wily Beerball... Don't respond to his posts. He's Dirt, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 google "scapegoat" It's two words I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 the term is escape goat you moron Oh, u relly gat me thur pointin owt a tiping errur...luk at thee big braen on u... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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