Did we know this? DTs will switch assignments

[obie_wan]

He went out and got Jason Ferguson, who as I said is 33, coming off an injury, and who weighs just 312#, to play in the 3-4. The rest of the guys, outside of Porter, whose best days are well behind him, have never played in a 3-4 in their NFL careers, including new additions Reggie Torbor and Randy Starks.

 

So if you want to get hung-up on Stroud allegedly being too small at 310# (yeah) to play NT, go right ahead. It won't make it any more correct.

 

Stroud probably will not be on the nose. that is the point.

 

from the latest pronouncement, they will probably line up both DTs n the gaps

[VOR]

Stroud probably will not be on the nose. that is the point.

 

from the latest pronouncement, they will probably line up both DTs n the gaps

Way to read.

 

With the strict assignment of a nose tackle and three technique tackle no longer a part of Buffalo's defensive scheme, the two tackles will alternate those roles based on the pre-snap call and the alignment of the opposing offense.

[krazykat]

because they just figured out that the guy they thought brought in to stuff the run (Stroud) actually weighs less than all of our DL, even though he is 6'-6". Not exactly the big bottom guy to anchor against the run. so now they have no one to play the true DT.

 

look for both DTs to line up in the gaps so no one DT is consistently being double teamed, because no one is big enough to handle it

Right, and with guys all smaller than Stroud, they're just figuring out what some of us knew prior to their first season with the talent that they assembled at the position?

 

I spell it out; failure to date.

[krazykat]

yeah those weights are all classic for nose tackles

 

we still have no one to play the nose - and are forced to change schemes because the front office failed to deliver personnel to run the preferred scheme.

 

We now have 4 3-technique guys to rotate

I'd say three. Stroud played in a traditional system in Jax I'm pretty sure.

[krazykat]

probably because the average age of the poster is now about 12

 

older posters also act like their 12 with their childish rants

LOL

 

Anywhere the few can go to discuss Bills football reasonably?

[krazykat]

good point.

 

Parcells wants to play a 3-4.

 

So he goes out and gets the personnel so he can run a 3-4.

 

The current regime has been trying to run 4-3 with 1 DT playing on the nose. 3 years later we still don;t have a DT capable of playing on the nose, so we are going to change our philosophy to play a 4-3 where all the DTS shoot the gaps.

You nailed it for about the fourth time.

 

Don't expect anyone arguing with you to get it. This is a deja vu for us and more of the same for them.

[LynchMob23]

You nailed it for about the fourth time.

 

Don't expect anyone arguing with you to get it. This is a deja vu for us and more of the same for them.

 

Just because the line switches 1 and 3 technique assignments doesn't mean it's doom and gloom for the Bills. Just because Bill Parcells wants to run a 3-4 and signs Ferguson, who didn't do well in Wade's slanting version of the same defense doesn't mean we're behind in filling personnel needs. You look at the strength of the offense, you move your tackle and SAM linebacker, end of story.

 

But continue drawing imaginary lines in the sand against fellow Bills fans. In July.

 

One question - would y'all rather sit on your chairs with an air of superiority being right about the line or would you rather discuss it? Because it seems to me if you are wrong you'd just find something else that went wrong you were right about...

[VOR]

Just because the line switches 1 and 3 technique assignments doesn't mean it's doom and gloom for the Bills. Just because Bill Parcells wants to run a 3-4 and signs Ferguson, who didn't do well in Wade's slanting version of the same defense doesn't mean we're behind in filling personnel needs. You look at the strength of the offense, you move your tackle and SAM linebacker, end of story.

 

But continue drawing imaginary lines in the sand against fellow Bills fans. In July.

 

One question - would y'all rather sit on your chairs with an air of superiority being right about the line or would you rather discuss it? Because it seems to me if you are wrong you'd just find something else that went wrong you were right about...

You nailed it the first time; but it won't be enough. These two seemingly need things explained to them about 20 times before it sinks in. I had to explain to kk that just because Matt Jones, a guy who only played QB in HS and college, was a bust as a WR in the pros, it doesn't mean that Hardy, who's been playing WR since HS, will be a bust. He stopped responding so I think he finally got the message.

 

But here, I've told ow about 5 times that the DT's will be switching-off between NT and 3-tech, yet he's stuck on the fact that there's no permanently-designated NT. He's also stuck on Stroud's weight of 310# (as if), while ignoring the fact that Jason Ferguson is 312# and it the ONLY player Parcells signed that knows the 3-4.

 

The Fins should have one of the worst defenses in the NFL again this year. And the worst, if they trade Taylor or he sits-out for half the season.

[AKC]

Just because the line switches 1 and 3 technique assignments doesn't mean it's doom and gloom for the Bills.

 

would you rather discuss it?

 

You’re covering a few different issues as I see it. The successful Cover-2 Ds have played a NT/UT scheme, not conceding two outside Guard shade DTs instead. We'll basically be playing the latter this year from a personnel standpoint, regardless of where our players are lining up. Kyle Williams as a ‘tweener there might be considered the exception, but the balance of our guys are 3s, and Williams- while game and fairly athletic, is not a starting quality DT in the NFL. He'd be a very good rotational guy if he was playing behind one of the best DTs in the game, but that's simply not the situation in Buffalo.

 

There's no doubt McCargo and Stroud are not the 312 pound players they're listed at- both are bigger but both still are gap splitters and not control guys. At 275 pounds, let's assume we won't want to see a lot of Spencer Johnson in on running downs.

 

So the fact is, while the Bills did bring in a former Pro Bowl quality DT plus add a reserve rotational guy, the better opponents we face have multiple proven quality DTs in their rotations. We simply don't. Could we get incredibly lucky and have Stroud make a miracle comeback this season, plus have our second line of defense survive the crashing, unobstructed OLinemen they should expect to have in their faces all year long? We'll all hope for that to happen- but once again, the Buffalo Bills ignored what the good teams understand- you must have quality in your defensive interior to beat short passing offenses. To call the unit we have a "quality" unit defies the facts about their acquisitions- Jacksonville expects to compete for a shot at the Lombardi this year, and teams in that position do not allow DTs they expect to play like the 2004 Stroud of '04 move on.

 

The best hopes of the 2008 Buffalo Bills are that the Jacksonville Jaguars made a very bad personnel decision in allowing Stroud to go. On the other hand, if the Jaguars sense for his productivity in 2008 comes true, it's likely to be one long, awful year of watching the Buffalo Bills try and stop anyone with a credible running attack.

[LynchMob23]

AKC,

 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss!

 

First, I think you are correct with the UT/NT and I have no argument there. I think that our rotation is a little stronger than you think, especially with McCargo, Williams and Stroud eligible to play the NT given the play. I think that the 1 though is more inside the center than outside the guard, but that's apples and oranges and a point I don't feel is too important.

 

With regard to the Jacksonville, I think the idea of offloading a guy that may not return to form for two picks that can inject youth into a superbowl contender outweighed seeing if Stroud could return to form. In our case, taking the risk for a proven (but already injured) veteran outweighed adding more youth to an already younger team.

 

Now, do you feel that Johnson, McCargo, Williams and Stroud are enough as a whole (even if Stroud is not the world-beater he once was) to be a competent defensive line? Personally, I'm not looking for the best line in the NFL, but I think they (on paper) should at least be high teens level in run defense.

[BillsVet]

As much as DJ and Fewell will adjust the defense to suit certain situations, it's apparent what they'd like to run. C2 defenses are run upwards of 50% of the time in any defense. Buffalo's DT's bring somewhat similar skill-sets to the table. Stroud is most likely larger than the listed 310 and I don't doubt McCargo is around that weight. Spencer Johnson is probably smaller than McCargo, but made plays in Minnesota and I like his versatility. Kyle Williams is not big enough to play the NT (1 tech) and not quick enough to play UT (3 tech).

 

While weight isn't the only quality necessary to play either position (John Randle played at 290 and was quite successful) holding up at the point of attack is something no Bills DT has done much of since the days of Pat Williams. I daresay Williams isn't that player and never will be, despite an excellent work ethic. Working hard and talent are two different things. I wouldn't be surpised to see Stroud lining up with McCargo or Johnson fairly regularly with Williams a strictly depth player.

 

Before going off the deep end, with Williams, McCargo, and Tripplett at DT this team was 31st against the run. As much as it's a team playing defense, the first line of DT's was terrible, especially late in games. I don't care who Buffalo has a CB, LB, or S it won't matter until they can stop the run.

[AKC]

Now, do you feel that Johnson, McCargo, Williams and Stroud are enough as a whole (even if Stroud is not the world-beater he once was) to be a competent defensive line? Personally, I'm not looking for the best line in the NFL, but I think they (on paper) should at least be high teens level in run defense.

 

If you look at the Super Bowl doorknockers, I see teams that make more of a commitment to DT than the bad teams. I see teams carrying more, and in most cases a higher quality of DT, than we do.

 

You don't have to look outside of our own division- consider the one AFC East rival who looks at the Bills as 2 wins on their schedule every year. They don't even play a 4-3, yet they are rock solid at DT with 3 first round picks among the 5 they carried on their roster last season. We're talking about a 3-4 team with 5 DTs- that's 60% of their DT rotation in under 30 yr-old 1st round picks, and each of those 3 considered starting quality in the NFL.

 

Outside of the obvious fact that we play in a 4-3 and by design have even more needs than they do, we carried no more DTs than that 3-4 team did last year. We're only rostering one first rounder under 30, a guy who is not even considered starting quality on his own team at this point, let alone NFL starting quality. We have another over 30 first rounder who was released due to the exponential drop in his productivity/durability over the past 3 seasons. The fact is, the #3 DT in NE* is considered by most NFL talent experts as better than ANY DT on our roster.

 

I recognize you can't change the planet overnight. But I also recognize that we're still undercommitted to DT when compared to our best opponents. With some real magic from Stroud and bigtime support behind him, our schedule offers a real opportunity. At the same time, based upon the type of DT commitment made by the best teams in the league, IMO we're still a below .500 football team entering '08.

[obie_wan]

If you look at the Super Bowl doorknockers, I see teams that make more of a commitment to DT than the bad teams. I see teams carrying more, and in most cases a higher quality of DT, than we do.

 

You don't have to look outside of our own division- consider the one AFC East rival who looks at the Bills as 2 wins on their schedule every year. They don't even play a 4-3, yet they are rock solid at DT with 3 first round picks among the 5 they carried on their roster last season. We're talking about a 3-4 team with 5 DTs- that's 60% of their DT rotation in under 30 yr-old 1st round picks, and each of those 3 considered starting quality in the NFL.

 

Outside of the obvious fact that we play in a 4-3 and by design have even more needs than they do, we carried no more DTs than that 3-4 team did last year. We're only rostering one first rounder under 30, a guy who is not even considered starting quality on his own team at this point, let alone NFL starting quality. We have another over 30 first rounder who was released due to the exponential drop in his productivity/durability over the past 3 seasons. The fact is, the #3 DT in NE* is considered by most NFL talent experts as better than ANY DT on our roster.

 

I recognize you can't change the planet overnight. But I also recognize that we're still undercommitted to DT when compared to our best opponents. With some real magic from Stroud and bigtime support behind him, our schedule offers a real opportunity. At the same time, based upon the type of DT commitment made by the best teams in the league, IMO we're still a below .500 football team entering '08.

 

but we gave big money to Kyle Williams - he must be good because we gave him a lot of money

 

The scary thing is the Bills believe Williams is the answer, because by extending him they are essentially prevented from spending those resources and roster spot on a real DT.

[AKC]

but we gave big money to Kyle Williams - he must be good because we gave him a lot of money

 

The scary thing is the Bills believe Williams is the answwer, because by extending him they are not prevented from spending those resources and roster spot on a real DT.

 

Kyle has a natural low center of gravity and power when he's playing low, something DLine coaches spend their careers trying to teach to most of their players. When he's left to go upfield using that skill, he can be a very disruptive force becasue he's so good at it. One of the biggest drawbacks for him is that like all of our linemen the past 2 seasons, he's been asked to make his initial pushand then get up high to take away passing lanes. Guys like McCargo who already play high are naturally suited to play the style we've been demanding, but with Kyle it has taken the best part of his game away. If Williams is given the chance as a rotational player to come into the game and bring his best pressure, he could be an incredibly important #3 or #4 DT in a solid rotation. The problem is that you have to have much better talent in front of the #3 and #4, and right now that's our huge question.

 

As in most off-seasons, you have fans who feel that any positional FA acquisition has us "keepin' up with the Joneses". Our problem at DT is that we were simply so far behind the "Joneses" that our 2008 offseason only moved us from "awful" to "possibly improved", and nowhere near a goal of "competitive with the best team's rotations". Certainly the position of Defensive Tackle has become more and more important to success in the NFL as mutations of the West Coast Offense have erupted around the league. The best teams are paying attention. It's very easy to look at what we've done as more along the lines of paying lip service to the trend.

[VOR]

If you look at the Super Bowl doorknockers, I see teams that make more of a commitment to DT than the bad teams. I see teams carrying more, and in most cases a higher quality of DT, than we do.

 

You don't have to look outside of our own division- consider the one AFC East rival who looks at the Bills as 2 wins on their schedule every year. They don't even play a 4-3, yet they are rock solid at DT with 3 first round picks among the 5 they carried on their roster last season. We're talking about a 3-4 team with 5 DTs- that's 60% of their DT rotation in under 30 yr-old 1st round picks, and each of those 3 considered starting quality in the NFL.

First off, the Patriots kept 4 DT/NT's on their roster. And of those, 1 was a 1st rounder (Wilfork). The other 2-1st round DL are DE's Seymour and Warren. Both can play DT, but under most circumstances, don't. The remainder of the backup DT's are second day picks. I don't disagree with what you're saying about the Bills' DT situation, but it's not like the Patriots have 2-1st rounders backing-up Wilfork.

 

Outside of the obvious fact that we play in a 4-3 and by design have even more needs than they do, we carried no more DTs than that 3-4 team did last year. We're only rostering one first rounder under 30, a guy who is not even considered starting quality on his own team at this point, let alone NFL starting quality. We have another over 30 first rounder who was released due to the exponential drop in his productivity/durability over the past 3 seasons. The fact is, the #3 DT in NE* is considered by most NFL talent experts as better than ANY DT on our roster.

 

I recognize you can't change the planet overnight. But I also recognize that we're still undercommitted to DT when compared to our best opponents. With some real magic from Stroud and bigtime support behind him, our schedule offers a real opportunity. At the same time, based upon the type of DT commitment made by the best teams in the league, IMO we're still a below .500 football team entering '08.

The Bills were 7-9 last year despite injuries and a rookie QB and RB. With the off-season additions the Bills are at least a .500 team, even if Stroud, who was playing at a high level in 2006 before getting injured, misses half the season again.

[colin]

akc,

 

we ditched trip, traded for stroud, signed johnson and extended williams.

 

we also drafted ellis. we upgraded/added 3 guys to our front 4, and signed mitchell and got poz back from injury. that's 5 new guys from the end of last year in the front 7. we wanted to get bigger and we did. what would you have had us do, spend our first 2 picks on the dl as well, so that we ignore huge cb and wr needs in order to add 7 guys to the front 7?

 

there's more to a team than the dl, and it's not like we didn't upgrade ours.

[K-9]

akc,

 

we ditched trip, traded for stroud, signed johnson and extended williams.

 

we also drafted ellis. we upgraded/added 3 guys to our front 4, and signed mitchell and got poz back from injury. that's 5 new guys from the end of last year in the front 7. we wanted to get bigger and we did. what would you have had us do, spend our first 2 picks on the dl as well, so that we ignore huge cb and wr needs in order to add 7 guys to the front 7?

 

there's more to a team than the dl, and it's not like we didn't upgrade ours.

 

This thread has made me dizzy, but I wanted to say thanks for mentioning the LBs and the front 7 as a whole. We can't speak of DLmen responsibilities without including the entire front 7 or the blocking schemes various OLs will employ. Nothing about Dline play is static.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[AKC]

it's not like we didn't upgrade ours.

 

 

If the deterioration of Marcus Stroud continues on the path it's been on for the past 3 seasons, we'd be expecting about 3 or 4 total games from him this season. A rotation of McCargo, Williams and the 275 pound Spencer Johnson may inspire confidence in some quarters, but not mine.

 

You appear convinced that we've upgraded from one of the worst DLines in the NFL in 2007. Even if it plays out that we've "upgraded" from one of the worst lines in the league, the real question is whether we've closed much of the gap between the best teams' DLines and our own. And on that point, we aren't even in the same league IMO.

[colin]

If the deterioration of Marcus Stroud continues on the path it's been on for the past 3 seasons, we'd be expecting about 3 or 4 total games from him this season. A rotation of McCargo, Williams and the 275 pound Spencer Johnson may inspire confidence in some quarters, but not mine.

 

You appear convinced that we've upgraded from one of the worst DLines in the NFL in 2007. Even if it plays out that we've "upgraded" from one of the worst lines in the league, the real question is whether we've closed much of the gap between the best teams' DLines and our own. And on that point, we aren't even in the same league IMO.

 

the question remains -- what would you have done?

 

also -- our FO could have gone after any of the big DTs available for trade but chose stroud. are you that sure that they eff'ed that up and went for a washed up guy when other players were out there? dj picking over his old player shuan rogers makes me think he has a better idea of who is over the hill or not.

[AKC]

the question remains -- what would you have done?

 

also -- our FO could have gone after any of the big DTs available for trade but chose stroud. are you that sure that they eff'ed that up and went for a washed up guy when other players were out there? dj picking over his old player shuan rogers makes me think he has a better idea of who is over the hill or not.

 

We screwed ourselves in the long run by passing over guys like Ngata, a top tier player at the position. This past draft we were 5 spots too low to get a difference maker at DT. What you do is draft great DTs when they're on the board and you're on the clock. The good teams realize it. We act sometimes like we're being run by the offense-crazed media and fans instead of a front office who is paying attention to what is making teams better on Sundays. And what makes teams better right now, in this day and age, is great Defensive interiors.

 

also -- our FO could have gone after any of the big DTs available for trade but chose stroud. are you that sure that they eff'ed that up and went for a washed up guy when other players were out there? dj picking over his old player shuan rogers makes me think he has a better idea of who is over the hill or not.

 

What's your bet? Are you saying that the JAX Jags, considered to be right in the mix for a Super Bowl appearance, would give up on a guy who could play like Marcus Stroud played for them int he beginning of this decade? It sounds like you think the Bill's FO has some credentials that suggest they are the equal or better talent evaluators when compared to the Jags? Recent history, unfortunately says otherwise.

 

We'd all like to see Stroud have a magic season. But the chances of that are fairly remote.