This is BullSh#$

[BillsVet]

Did you watch the Bills this year?

 

Did you happen to see Nate break up that third down pass to Andre Johnson on the last Houston posession after Jauron punted the ball away with like 2:30 left on the clock and needing a TD yet to win? Ya' think Philadelphia could have used a player to step up like that after Andy Reid punted the ball away late in Philly's loss to New Orleans in the playoffs? But Jauron came out smelling like a rose and JP had his signature moment, courtesy of a play nobody on that team makes, except Clements.

 

And that's just the beginning. The Indy game? Dominated by Nate. The Jets game? If Clements doesn't take that ball to the house, the Bills were in trouble. It was slipping away while Willis nursed his hangover, err, stomach ailment, on the bench. Hell, if they had matched Clements on Gates in the SD game like the Bills once did with Antoine Winfield on Tony Gonzalez, the Bills win that home game, IMO. Instead, Gates made the #8 pick in the 2006 draft look like a 5'9" stong safety trying to cover a premier TE. And of course, who could forget Nate breaking up that ill advised pass from the 1 yard line into the endzone that floated into Ko Simpsons' arms, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against Green Bay.

 

Anyone?

 

7-9 with a near miss against the SB champs sure looks a lot better than 5-11 or 4-12 doesn't it? If Nate wasn't out there, what is the perception of this "up and coming" team going into next season? Are we looking to draft a QB with that top 5 pick? Are we railing against Ralph for hiring a washed up old coach to be GM and a retread HC with an increasingly more dismal record? Ask Mike Mularkey how stupid not having Pat Williams in the lineup made him look coming off a 9-7 season.

 

So you can sit there and say Nate isn't worth as much cap space as 3 vital cogs like Larry Triplett, Tutan Reyes and Andre Davis combined, but I will differ on that.

 

 

This whole post is right on. We've already begun rationalizing why it's okay to let NC go. He's gonna demand too much money, he doesn't play an important enough position in the Cover-2, etc, etc... We're talking about having 33M in cap room and not able to sign our own? We've cried this small market thing long enough. Nate was a very valuable player in Buffalo this season. He made game-changing plays that contributed to wins. 7-9 could easily become 5-11 and then our front office doesn't look so good. And don't forget what a corner can allow to happen. Roy Williams dominated Terrence McGee in the Detroit game until Clements came over. By then it was too late. But I forgot, CB's aren't worth much in the Cover-2.

 

 

Buffalo is a laughing stock to the rest of the NFL. Sorry to be a doom and gloom person, but a lot of people said 7-9 was more than they expected. I myself saw them going 5-11 with the influx of multiple players, coaches, and a new GM coming in. But what if we took a step back next season? What if 5-11 happened again? This is a league in which the Jets and Ravens had 2006 seasons where they won 6 and 7 games more respectively than 2005. Why can't we do that with some new above-average players?

 

The fans are tired of mediocre. Last year I thought they'd do something to make the team more attractive above and beyond the free agent finds like Tripplett, Royal, Fowler, Bowen, P. Price, etc. NC would go a long way into making people believe the Bills were in it for this year. Now, I don't think so. I think they're going to be rebuilding until doomsday or they leave for greener pastures.

[BADOLBILZ]

Since when does one man make or break a team?

 

When that player or coach improves the performance of those around him because of his special abilities.

 

Their called difference makers. In this defense, Nate was just that. Pass rush looked better because the top receiving option was covered. Other corners looked better because they were matched against the lesser receivers. Safeties looked better because they could cheat to the inside, closing up that vulnerable spot in the seam in cover 2. As I stated, if not for Nate's play on Andre Johnson late in the Houston game, JP never gets his breakout moment and Jauron looks like a douchebag for punting. You still need playmakers in the cover 2, it's not a suffocating defense, it allows passes to be completed and results in open running lanes thru the d-line. No Nate, no punts. No punts = long drives which equals less opportunities for JP and company. See the infamous Detroit game. Overall team regression.

 

But hey, that's just me, if you guys think Kiwaukee Thomas is up to being the top corner on this team, good for you. Based on Marv's past negotiating acumen, I'm sure he can get Kiwaukee done for HALF of what it would cost for Clements!

[BADOLBILZ]

This whole post is right on. We've already begun rationalizing why it's okay to let NC go.

 

That's as succinct as it can be, it's just rationalization because people don't want to think that this team is making the same mistake again. We went thru the same thing when Pat Williams left. He was getting old and could be replaced by other players and methods, yada, yada. Same with Ted Washington before him. Last years defense wasn't on par with those defenses, but Clements was every bit as important to the Bills modified cover 2 as PW was to LeBeaus 4-3 and Phillips 3-4, respectively. Expect the same dropoff.

 

What really puzzles me is Marv talking about improving the run defense. The cover 2 just doesn't lend itself to stellar run defense. The Bucs never really could stop the run when they had to, even with an All-Pro Warren Sapp and young Booger McFarland. They didn't get over the hump until they got an offense that could win games too(unlike the Ravens, who won with NOTHING on offense).

[THE GASH STATION]

First of all, they wouldn't make that ridiculous offer. Second, they wouldn't honor it if they did. Then they'd tell them that business is business........because IT IS. You want a guarantee, you get it in writing. I mean, these players play in a league where their contracts aren't guaranteed, where they can get cut after a serious injury the minute A TEAM doctor declares them healthy, even if they can't ever play again, and then they stop getting paid.

 

Where is The Barnes Firm when you need em', Dibs?

 

And the Bills are going to GIVE away a valuable player in the circumstance they are in? 7 years, no playoffs? $30M UNDER the cap? Just f*cking ridiculous. Hope it works out for ya', Marv, because there are going to be some ANGRY mofos in the stands this fall if this team takes a step back because you couldn't even retain what you had despite all the power and cash to do so. You think Donahoe's last year was ugly, you haven't seen 5-11 in 2007. Get er done, or die trying Marv, or you'll wish you never came back. THAT is a verbal guarantee right there.

 

I'm with you..plus you metioned the Barnes firm (They gonna be Cellino & Barnes again??) and you said MoFo !

[Pyrite Gal]

Did you watch the Bills this year?

 

Did you happen to see Nate break up that third down pass to Andre Johnson on the last Houston posession after Jauron punted the ball away with like 2:30 left on the clock and needing a TD yet to win? Ya' think Philadelphia could have used a player to step up like that after Andy Reid punted the ball away late in Philly's loss to New Orleans in the playoffs? But Jauron came out smelling like a rose and JP had his signature moment, courtesy of a play nobody on that team makes, except Clements.

 

And that's just the beginning. The Indy game? Dominated by Nate. The Jets game? If Clements doesn't take that ball to the house, the Bills were in trouble. It was slipping away while Willis nursed his hangover, err, stomach ailment, on the bench. Hell, if they had matched Clements on Gates in the SD game like the Bills once did with Antoine Winfield on Tony Gonzalez, the Bills win that home game, IMO. Instead, Gates made the #8 pick in the 2006 draft look like a 5'9" stong safety trying to cover a premier TE. And of course, who could forget Nate breaking up that ill advised pass from the 1 yard line into the endzone that floated into Ko Simpsons' arms, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against Green Bay.

 

Anyone?

 

7-9 with a near miss against the SB champs sure looks a lot better than 5-11 or 4-12 doesn't it? If Nate wasn't out there, what is the perception of this "up and coming" team going into next season? Are we looking to draft a QB with that top 5 pick? Are we railing against Ralph for hiring a washed up old coach to be GM and a retread HC with an increasingly more dismal record? Ask Mike Mularkey how stupid not having Pat Williams in the lineup made him look coming off a 9-7 season.

 

So you can sit there and say Nate isn't worth as much cap space as 3 vital cogs like Larry Triplett, Tutan Reyes and Andre Davis combined, but I will differ on that.

Yep, I watched the games and this is why I am pretty comfortable with saying that NC is very good but not worth top CB dollars. He clearly is the #1 CB on this team and much better than McGee. However, this is different from making a decision about whether he is worth such a huge hit in our total cap.

 

The question is not merely whether he deserves top dollar compared to our other CBs, but instead to ask what allocation of cap resources gives us the most productive D.

 

The Bills overall D and the game against the pass will be improved much more IMHO by improving our pass rush by focusing on getting better DT production and by cutting down on opponents run opportunities by strengthening the LB play than it will by devoting an inordinate % of our cap resources to resigning this very good CB.

 

I think that the Bills actually gave up on the idea of showing NC the money after he followed up his Pro Bowl 2004 with an awful at times 2005. I think when he walks on us and goes to another team I think he will be liberated (assuming he makes a good choice about new employers) he may well prove to be good enough again to make the Pro Bowl. However, like Dre Bly who has articulated his complaints about how the Cover 2 is not a good scheme for many CBs, i think our Cover 2 does not make the highest and best use of NC and thus I think we get better by devoting our resources to actually getting a better pass rush and by improving our LB play.

 

While I can see the Marv approach of saying the important thing is to resign the guys you got, the reality of it all is that there is no way the Bills reasonably could have given NC the Champ Bailey money he wanted after his troubled 2005 and it was not unreasonable to give him the commitment not to franchise him again in order to get him into camp without the distraction of a holdout as one is installing a new system and coaching staff.

 

At this point, since NC has proven to be a valuable commodity and likely the hottest available CB prospect, he would be foolish to agree to a reasonable contract which likely is far less than what the market will give him.

 

Given who we have on the roster (I doubt Youbouty will step up to start but it is possible) since there really is no replacement in position for F-B and our only on roster possibility is to move Crowell to MLB which leave an LB hole at Will anyway, resigning Fletch for half the bonus likely needed for NC strikes me as a far better move and you deal with the likelihood we have lesser play from our CB by improving the pass rush.

 

I do not argue at all that NC was not very valuable for us in 06 or that we are ready to go for sure without him. I simply argue he is more cheaply replaced with lesser players than him who will be asked to play a lesser role in our D than if we move to replace the MLB.

[BADOLBILZ]

Yep, I watched the games and this is why I am pretty comfortable with saying that NC is very good but not worth top CB dollars. He clearly is the #1 CB on this team and much better than McGee. However, this is different from making a decision about whether he is worth such a huge hit in our total cap.

 

 

The question is not merely whether he deserves top dollar compared to our other CBs, but instead to ask what allocation of cap resources gives us the most productive D.

 

The Bills overall D and the game against the pass will be improved much more IMHO by improving our pass rush by focusing on getting better DT production and by cutting down on opponents run opportunities by strengthening the LB play than it will by devoting an inordinate % of our cap resources to resigning this very good CB.

 

I think that the Bills actually gave up on the idea of showing NC the money after he followed up his Pro Bowl 2004 with an awful at times 2005. I think when he walks on us and goes to another team I think he will be liberated (assuming he makes a good choice about new employers) he may well prove to be good enough again to make the Pro Bowl. However, like Dre Bly who has articulated his complaints about how the Cover 2 is not a good scheme for many CBs, i think our Cover 2 does not make the highest and best use of NC and thus I think we get better by devoting our resources to actually getting a better pass rush and by improving our LB play.

 

While I can see the Marv approach of saying the important thing is to resign the guys you got, the reality of it all is that there is no way the Bills reasonably could have given NC the Champ Bailey money he wanted after his troubled 2005 and it was not unreasonable to give him the commitment not to franchise him again in order to get him into camp without the distraction of a holdout as one is installing a new system and coaching staff.

 

At this point, since NC has proven to be a valuable commodity and likely the hottest available CB prospect, he would be foolish to agree to a reasonable contract which likely is far less than what the market will give him.

 

Given who we have on the roster (I doubt Youbouty will step up to start but it is possible) since there really is no replacement in position for F-B and our only on roster possibility is to move Crowell to MLB which leave an LB hole at Will anyway, resigning Fletch for half the bonus likely needed for NC strikes me as a far better move and you deal with the likelihood we have lesser play from our CB by improving the pass rush.

 

I do not argue at all that NC was not very valuable for us in 06 or that we are ready to go for sure without him. I simply argue he is more cheaply replaced with lesser players than him who will be asked to play a lesser role in our D than if we move to replace the MLB.

 

Clements "troubled" 2005 was mostly the result of Jerry Gray lining him up 10 yards off of the ball every down. That negated his skill. Even the best players have to be put in position to succeed. I'm all for improving the DL and the LB corps, I just know that this will be a lot harder than it sounds right now. Where are all these great pass rushers and run stuffers that are going to cover up for a cb group lead by a guy in Terrence McGee who can't play zone defense and is too small to matchup in man coverage against top receivers. Kiwaukee Thomas? Get real. Ashton Youboty has proven nothing. He made the roster because he was a draft pick and he wasn't drafted as early as some projected because he lacks top speed and quickness.

 

Fletcher? He's OLD. Even so, some team will give him a good contract offer, because there is not enough talent to go around. He's also a bad fit in this or any cover 2, and I believe Marv made reference to this when referring not wanting pursuit LB'ers, which is what Fletcher is. As for properly allocating cap space.....like I said, they allocate as much cap space in guys like Triplett, Reyes and Davis, who are marginal NFL players to begin with, let alone difference makers.

 

And are these top pass rushers and run defenders going to come cheap? The reality is that they aren't going to be coming AT ALL. They aren't out there to be had. The guy who's really getting screwed here is Perry Fewell. He should try to get off of this staff before he gets stuck in a situation that is impossible to succeed in, even if it means a step down to position coach.

[daquixers_is_back]

1) Don't know ya'

2) Not your friend

3) Players association is not an issue. Lawsuit was the issue, and the league doesn't have an inhouse courtroom, it still would have to be heard by a judge or AGREED to be arbitrated. Before it got that far, deals would be done. NFLPA, still the weakest such group in pro sports, if they weren't the Patriots would have to be dismantled for all the complaints against them, from inattention to injuries, to abusing the franchise tags........And YET, players continue to want to sign with them and they keep winning and playing team football.

 

That's because none of the offseason sh*t matters and the locker room could really give a sh*t if Nate gets $7M per year or $9M. I swear, some of you guys are living in fantasy football land sometimes. Business is TOUGH, things get done that make people unhappy, then people move on one way or another and it's completely forgotten, like the examples I've given.

 

This idea that it will make the Bills LOOK BAD? Get the f*ck out. Two things matter most to players, money and conditions. Jauron has a rep as a players coach, so they've got that. Marv has a rep for overpaying after last years scrapheap spendathon. They've got that. Don't kid yourself that whatever happens with Nate will have any impact on the Bills perception around the league, other than "look at those losers, they had $30M in cap space and couldn't even get their best defender re-signed".

 

Ithe Bills WERE to somehow pull this off and the court took too long to act, then Nate could sue the Buffalo Bills for damages caused by breaking a verbal contract. He could argue that he would have received much more had they not franchised him, and the fact that A. Samuel was just tagged by the Patriots, would further his argument as he is now the ONLY quality CB free agent on the market. Instead of replying to this, PLEASE crack open a casebook and read verbal contract cases that WERE upheld, and the damages that the defendant had to pay due to breaking that contract.

[Dibs]

What's the difference between Nate Clemments, Eric Steinbach, Dwight Freeney, Cato June or any other non-restricted non-tagged FA?

[daquixers_is_back]

What's the difference between Nate Clemments, Eric Steinbach, Dwight Freeney, Cato June or any other non-restricted non-tagged FA?

 

Ill play along. What?

[The Jokeman]

1. Verbal contract....he'd sue our asses

2. We don't want that much money spent on a CB in this system

Then franchise him and let some other team pony up the money to sign him and get some compensation for him and don't let him just walk away for nothing.

[Dibs]

Ill play along. What?

I wasn't actually expecting a response....more of a rhetorical question......maybe it's not as obvious to others as it is to me.

 

There is no difference. They are all FAs without ties to their previous teams. That means that any team(us included) can look at the list of FAs & chose to spend on whichever one they feel would be the best fit(value for money/personality/system/etc/etc/etc).

 

I know that you in particular will hate to face it but NC is to the Bills what every other unattached FA is to the Bills. He is just one guy in a group of guys.

 

My point basically is that there should be no doom & gloom over not signing NC......as long as a different first class FA is signed in his stead.

[daquixers_is_back]

I wasn't actually expecting a response....more of a rhetorical question......maybe it's not as obvious to others as it is to me.

 

There is no difference. They are all FAs without ties to their previous teams. That means that any team(us included) can look at the list of FAs & chose to spend on whichever one they feel would be the best fit(value for money/personality/system/etc/etc/etc).

 

I know that you in particular will hate to face it but NC is to the Bills what every other unattached FA is to the Bills. He is just one guy in a group of guys.

 

My point basically is that there should be no doom & gloom over not signing NC......as long as a different first class FA is signed in his stead.

 

Oh. Sorry. I thought it was a joke.

 

The problem with letting NC go is that there is NO other first class FA at his position. He is a top 5, CB in this league, and the rest of our secondary is porous at best.

[Dibs]

Oh. Sorry. I thought it was a joke.

 

The problem with letting NC go is that there is NO other first class FA at his position. He is a top 5, CB in this league, and the rest of our secondary is porous at best.

I haven't the time to go over all of the reasons for why it might well be better for us to not re-sign NC. There has been numerous threads lately containing all the reasons(cover 2 corner, value for money, matching over-payment by other teams). I don't believe we should not re-sign him.....I believe we should make the best decision based on all the variables involved.....sign.....don't sign......base it upon logic, not emotion.

 

"The rest of our secondary is porous at best. " You'll want to work on better arguments there.....I don't have time to put them to you.....I know you can piece them together yourself.

[BADOLBILZ]

Ladies and gentlemen. Someone who is clearly wrong ... except for the fact that the arbitration would most likely have to be agreed upon. Please read up on verbal contracts, and how they are upheld before you talk. You simply sound like someone bitter.

 

Furthermore, if the Bills WERE to somehow pull this off and the court took too long to act, then Nate could sue the Buffalo Bills for damages caused by breaking a verbal contract. He could argue that he would have received much more had they not franchised him, and the fact that A. Samuel was just tagged by the Patriots, would further his argument as he is now the ONLY quality CB free agent on the market. Instead of replying to this, PLEASE crack open a casebook and read verbal contract cases that WERE upheld, and the damages that the defendant had to pay due to breaking that contract.

 

Actually, I'm the one giving you real examples. Why don't you point out a case for us, counselor. You are an attorney, right? I'm not bitter, I'm experienced. Very important notice, READ CAREFULLY: The truth is none of us know what the real deal was. So when you and Dibs tell everyone he'd sue, you are speaking DIRECTLY out of your ass counselor.

 

In fact, I believe Marv said it was an "understanding". Never was referred to as a contract. Sorry. Just not so. Understandings are subject to interpretation and stipulation. Understandings change with circumstance. As in "we agreed not to fanchise you if you agreed to negotiate, and then your agent wouldn't return calls and the understanding changed...". I've never been burned by a verbal contract gone bad, but I've seen it plenty and I've been astonished at how easily some defendants can shake off the hook despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence. Enough that I'd be damned if I threw a dollar at an attorney to chase a verbal contract. If two sides trust each other enough to strike a deal, and it's important enough to result in a lawsuit, they should respect each other enough to put it in writing.

[Pyrite Gal]

Clements "troubled" 2005 was mostly the result of Jerry Gray lining him up 10 yards off of the ball every down. That negated his skill. Even the best players have to be put in position to succeed. I'm all for improving the DL and the LB corps, I just know that this will be a lot harder than it sounds right now. Where are all these great pass rushers and run stuffers that are going to cover up for a cb group lead by a guy in Terrence McGee who can't play zone defense and is too small to matchup in man coverage against top receivers. Kiwaukee Thomas? Get real. Ashton Youboty has proven nothing. He made the roster because he was a draft pick and he wasn't drafted as early as some projected because he lacks top speed and quickness.

 

Fletcher? He's OLD. Even so, some team will give him a good contract offer, because there is not enough talent to go around. He's also a bad fit in this or any cover 2, and I believe Marv made reference to this when referring not wanting pursuit LB'ers, which is what Fletcher is. As for properly allocating cap space.....like I said, they allocate as much cap space in guys like Triplett, Reyes and Davis, who are marginal NFL players to begin with, let alone difference makers.

 

And are these top pass rushers and run defenders going to come cheap? The reality is that they aren't going to be coming AT ALL. They aren't out there to be had. The guy who's really getting screwed here is Perry Fewell. He should try to get off of this staff before he gets stuck in a situation that is impossible to succeed in, even if it means a step down to position coach.

 

Badol-

 

what do you think were the differences in the Jerry Gray D of 2004 within which Nate performed well enough to deserve the Pro Bowl berth he won and 2005 when your theory of why Nate struggled was that Gray played him too far back.

 

My sense of the difference in production seen in these two Ds was in part every unit picking up the slack for each other so that when any unit was having an off day the unit was not struggling all day to simply survive. The injury to TKO obviously made a difference that year, but in the big picture i thought the problem was not that Gray shifted things too much and adopted an ineffective style but actually that he did not shift things up enough and opposing Os figured out the weaknesses of the D an exploited them.

 

The bottomline for NC though is that rather than having him play loosely being a bad thing for NC, I actually think this fits his skills and talents quite well and actually out Cover 2 is not the best scheme for NC because he is so good at reading the QBs eyes and reading plays that when you give him time with relatively loose coverage to read the play he can jump routes for INTs and also range all over the field and make pickoff and break up passes intended for players he is not covering.

 

Overall being a hair over 6-1 and am over-confident player I think NC can do press coverage fairly well even though i think he is a better player with loose coverages, but particularly given the Bills generally requiring CBs to bail out 10-15 yards downfield our scheme is not gonna put him in position to be a playmaker much at all.

 

This usage makes him and probably no CB in a Cover 2 scheme worth giving top dollar too.

 

I'm not saying NC is a bad player, I am simply saying that our D will be more productive with an allocation of cap room to get our best players at other positions rather than CB.

[daquixers_is_back]

I haven't the time to go over all of the reasons for why it might well be better for us to not re-sign NC. There has been numerous threads lately containing all the reasons(cover 2 corner, value for money, matching over-payment by other teams). I don't believe we should not re-sign him.....I believe we should make the best decision based on all the variables involved.....sign.....don't sign......base it upon logic, not emotion.

 

"The rest of our secondary is porous at best. " You'll want to work on better arguments there.....I don't have time to put them to you.....I know you can piece them together yourself.

 

Cover 2? I thought we ran Cover 2 last year? The same defense that Clements was the leading contributor of 2-3 of our wins.

 

Perhaps you will have to piece the variables together for me, DIBS. I for one don't seem to be able to see them, apparently. If I remember correctly, McGee was being torched for most of the season, and Youboty barely played which led to speculation that he was under-achieving. Whitner seemed to be the only one showing some promise. If I remember right, Clements was the leading contributor in about three of our wins. Greenbay (he tipped the game-winning, goal-line stop, interception into another players hands), NY Jets (the game would have been much closer without his TD returning INT), and another game which seems to leave my mind at the moment. He also played extremely well in Houston, and very good in (for the most part) every other game of the season. So please piece the variables together for me.

 

 

Actually, I'm the one giving you real examples. Why don't you point out a case for us, counselor. You are an attorney, right? I'm not bitter, I'm experienced. Very important notice, READ CAREFULLY: The truth is none of us know what the real deal was. So when you and Dibs tell everyone he'd sue, you are speaking DIRECTLY out of your ass counselor.

 

In fact, I believe Marv said it was an "understanding". Never was referred to as a contract. Sorry. Just not so. Understandings are subject to interpretation and stipulation. Understandings change with circumstance. As in "we agreed not to fanchise you if you agreed to negotiate, and then your agent wouldn't return calls and the understanding changed...". I've never been burned by a verbal contract gone bad, but I've seen it plenty and I've been astonished at how easily some defendants can shake off the hook despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence. Enough that I'd be damned if I threw a dollar at an attorney to chase a verbal contract. If two sides trust each other enough to strike a deal, and it's important enough to result in a lawsuit, they should respect each other enough to put it in writing.

 

I am not yet an attorney. I am a business and law student. Some day I will be an attorney. Secondly, a verbal contract is very simple. Offer, consideration, acceptance. All three variables have been publicly stated. It does not need to be referred to as a contract. It is a contract simply due to the three variables. For example: when you purchase a piece of furniture, and work out a payment plan, most people do not see that as a contract. Yet it is. Something does not have to be referred to as a contract, to in fact, be a contract.

 

... and no, I am not stating that he WOULD take legal action. Only that he would have the option.

[Pyrite Gal]

Cover 2? I thought we ran Cover 2 last year? The same defense that Clements was the leading contributor of 2-3 of our wins.

 

Perhaps you will have to piece the variables together for me, DIBS. I for one don't seem to be able to see them, apparently. If I remember correctly, McGee was being torched for most of the season, and Youboty barely played which led to speculation that he was under-achieving. Whitner seemed to be the only one showing some promise. If I remember right, Clements was the leading contributor in about three of our wins. Greenbay (he tipped the game-winning, goal-line stop, interception into another players hands), NY Jets (the game would have been much closer without his TD returning INT), and another game which seems to leave my mind at the moment. He also played extremely well in Houston, and very good in (for the most part) every other game of the season. So please piece the variables together for me.

I

 

There is no doubt that Clements was a contributor to victory in several games last year and IMHO there is no doubt that Clements is a very good player who I think if he makes the right selection for a new team he will likely return to the Pro Bowl once again.

 

However, the question is not whether NC is a good or even a very good player, the question is whether he is worth a well into double digit bonus payment and particularly with a ownership decision by the Bills to go with a cash to cap accounting and budgeting method whether this player is going to be worth it to the Bills the massive payment he is set to receive in the market.

 

I think the answer is pretty clearly no and it really is no when one considers the role that the CB plays in the Cover 2 in order for it to be a productive D.

 

i do not think anyone would argue that one can play the Cover 2 with only 9 players so I do not think anyone should be surprised that Clements made a number of game-saving plays last year. The question is whether his game-saving plays were the type of plays that only a top quality corner could make (which Clements was last year though he was no where near that level the year before that). I do not remember the particular plays so if you do I would appreciate being educated about them.

 

You get burned unless you change up the plays and the implementation of the scheme from time to time. However, generally in the cover 2 (or Tampa 2 we tend to run) the CB does not have deep coverage and lets the receiver go when he leaves the short zone or the corner perceives he is leaving the short zone and another receiver is coming in underneath to take advantage of the clear out. If the very good critical plays made by NC last year were on short routes (15 yards an in) the expectation of Fewell is that a second tier corner we pick up or Youbouty can make those types of play. If they were longer downfield passes then it happens that the Bills were changing up the regular Cover 2 and the other team tried to take advantage of NC's ability to run with the WR and got burned doing this.

 

As far as Youbouty goes I saw very little intelligent speculation last year that the braintrust thought he could not cut it. In fact on the contrary, folks seemed to realize that Youbouty did not play because he missed virtually all of pre-season when his Mom who raised him and his siblings as a single parent died and Youbouty was the oldest kid and took time off to go back home as leadership of his family was thrust upon him at the tender age of 20 or so. if in fact, he had left his underage siblings to fend for themselves and he simply sent them big checks from his 3rd round pick slot, I'd actually have questions about the quality of his character if he chose hanging out with the boys over his family duties.

 

Once he came back after the season had begun, I think the braintrust was faialy impressed by how fast he picked things up despite missing practice and with the coaches more concerned about preparing for games than teaching a rookie. The coaches saying this was more than just the positive chatter they do about plyers, they trusted his play enough that he was even a starter against the Jets amd the D with him playing a critical role against a QB with no arm but a good head. The proof was in the pudding and he did a good job for a rookie.

 

The scouting reports on Youbouty are that folks though he should have stayed in school which apparently is why he dropped to the 3rd round because he has first round physical talents. I actually prefer that he got schooled as a Bill rather than in another year in college and I expect him to really be able to take the nickel spot this season and perhaps be our #2 CB. We'll see.

 

As far as the big picture, the current cap is a bit over $100 million. if NC get a Champ Bailey contract, while the entire $50-60 will not be budgeted against the 07 cap as most of this is future salaries, the entire amount of cash paid out this year will be budgeted against the cap in our budget even though it will be prorated over the life of the contract for cap calculation purposea. Thus given the bonus NC will receive up front almost 1/5 of our total cap amount would go to this one player and he is not worth 1/5 our budget.

 

This is why virtually all feel NC is gone and given that our CBs will be asked to play coverage in the short zone, it actually emphasizes what Youbouty does well (he is a 6 footer with a rep as a very competitive person who is a good handfighter which lends itself to press coverage. Though he was also a track athlete in college and seems to have the speed to run with people, his rep is that he still needs some work doing coverage with his back to the QB. In addition to emphasizing the strongest parts of his game with press coverage the Cover 2 will minimize the weakest part of it.

 

These are the variable that make letting NC walk work for the Bills.

[daquixers_is_back]

There is no doubt that Clements was a contributor to victory in several games last year and IMHO there is no doubt that Clements is a very good player who I think if he makes the right selection for a new team he will likely return to the Pro Bowl once again.

 

However, the question is not whether NC is a good or even a very good player, the question is whether he is worth a well into double digit bonus payment and particularly with a ownership decision by the Bills to go with a cash to cap accounting and budgeting method whether this player is going to be worth it to the Bills the massive payment he is set to receive in the market.

 

I think the answer is pretty clearly no and it really is no when one considers the role that the CB plays in the Cover 2 in order for it to be a productive D.

 

i do not think anyone would argue that one can play the Cover 2 with only 9 players so I do not think anyone should be surprised that Clements made a number of game-saving plays last year. The question is whether his game-saving plays were the type of plays that only a top quality corner could make (which Clements was last year though he was no where near that level the year before that). I do not remember the particular plays so if you do I would appreciate being educated about them.

 

You get burned unless you change up the plays and the implementation of the scheme from time to time. However, generally in the cover 2 (or Tampa 2 we tend to run) the CB does not have deep coverage and lets the receiver go when he leaves the short zone or the corner perceives he is leaving the short zone and another receiver is coming in underneath to take advantage of the clear out. If the very good critical plays made by NC last year were on short routes (15 yards an in) the expectation of Fewell is that a second tier corner we pick up or Youbouty can make those types of play. If they were longer downfield passes then it happens that the Bills were changing up the regular Cover 2 and the other team tried to take advantage of NC's ability to run with the WR and got burned doing this.

 

As far as Youbouty goes I saw very little intelligent speculation last year that the braintrust thought he could not cut it. In fact on the contrary, folks seemed to realize that Youbouty did not play because he missed virtually all of pre-season when his Mom who raised him and his siblings as a single parent died and Youbouty was the oldest kid and took time off to go back home as leadership of his family was thrust upon him at the tender age of 20 or so. if in fact, he had left his underage siblings to fend for themselves and he simply sent them big checks from his 3rd round pick slot, I'd actually have questions about the quality of his character if he chose hanging out with the boys over his family duties.

 

Once he came back after the season had begun, I think the braintrust was faialy impressed by how fast he picked things up despite missing practice and with the coaches more concerned about preparing for games than teaching a rookie. The coaches saying this was more than just the positive chatter they do about plyers, they trusted his play enough that he was even a starter against the Jets amd the D with him playing a critical role against a QB with no arm but a good head. The proof was in the pudding and he did a good job for a rookie.

 

The scouting reports on Youbouty are that folks though he should have stayed in school which apparently is why he dropped to the 3rd round because he has first round physical talents. I actually prefer that he got schooled as a Bill rather than in another year in college and I expect him to really be able to take the nickel spot this season and perhaps be our #2 CB. We'll see.

 

As far as the big picture, the current cap is a bit over $100 million. if NC get a Champ Bailey contract, while the entire $50-60 will not be budgeted against the 07 cap as most of this is future salaries, the entire amount of cash paid out this year will be budgeted against the cap in our budget even though it will be prorated over the life of the contract for cap calculation purposea. Thus given the bonus NC will receive up front almost 1/5 of our total cap amount would go to this one player and he is not worth 1/5 our budget.

 

This is why virtually all feel NC is gone and given that our CBs will be asked to play coverage in the short zone, it actually emphasizes what Youbouty does well (he is a 6 footer with a rep as a very competitive person who is a good handfighter which lends itself to press coverage. Though he was also a track athlete in college and seems to have the speed to run with people, his rep is that he still needs some work doing coverage with his back to the QB. In addition to emphasizing the strongest parts of his game with press coverage the Cover 2 will minimize the weakest part of it.

 

These are the variable that make letting NC walk work for the Bills.

 

The logic above is exactly what got us to where we are now. We have been letting very good players go for years, because they just are not "worth" the amount of money they are asking for. And thus, we have not been in the playoffs for 7+ years now. We let P. Williams, Winfield, Cowart... etc all go because of this philosophy. It is growing very old.

 

Clements is a top 5 player at his position. If you're saying that Clements is not worth it due to the cash-to-cap scenario that Marv and co. have us in, than you have to question the Bills front office on the decision to do the newly constructed cash-to-cap sytem rather than question the decision to keep Clements.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. How many years will it take for the Bills to realize that you have to pay good players? The SB champions shell out a ton of money. The Patriots just tagged their CB, which guarantees them paying him atleast 7.2 mill + this year.

 

And P.S. - STOP using the Cover 2 scheme excuse everyone! It does not hold water. The Colts run the same defense and yet their defensive production went up TREMENDOUSLY when CB, Bob Sanders came back onto the team. Guess what! He is just a CB in a Cover 2 system, and yet the whole defense seemed to play better once that ONE CB was back. Please stop using the Cover 2 scheme excuse.

 

Pyrite Girl - you asked for specific plays. Clements saved the day, by tipping the goal-line pass of Brett Favre in the Packers game in Buffalo, that was intercepted and essentially iced the game.

 

Clements saved the day, by batting down a big pass play by David Carr, in the Houston game with less than 3 minutes to go, I believe.

 

Clements also made a huge INT return for a TD in the Jets game in NY, which dampened the Jets spirits right before halftime and gave us a comfortable lead.

 

Not to mention the fact that Clements simply shut-down good receivers ALL YEAR LONG!

[cåblelady]

Yep, I watched the games and this is why I am pretty comfortable with saying that NC is very good but not worth top CB dollars. He clearly is the #1 CB on this team and much better than McGee. However, this is different from making a decision about whether he is worth such a huge hit in our total cap.

Have to agree with you, Pyrite Gal. (Sorry, Badol). I remember TOO many plays where NC was a non-factor or simply got burned. If Playmaker wants to get the big bucks he should be more consistent. Just sayin'...........

[billybob]

I think everybody should look on the bright side - with Nate gone we will have one of the best run defenses cause teams will just pass on us all day long.