JP vs The Excuse Factory

[mike1011]

JP's problems can be summarized in an analogous way to Bledsoe:

-If we had a better O-line

-Better receivers (minus 2002)

-Too long in the pocket

-Fumbles too much

 

Now what's the downside to starting Nall at this point? We hurt JP's feelings? When guys like the 6th round Gradkowski have a better grasp of the NFL at this point we have to start asking why not look at Nall for a few games before we waste another season on ineptness.

 

-Brady throws to the worst receiving core in the entire NFL, they get separation. Price, Reed, Evans are better than Caldwell, Brown, and the other no-names.

 

-Gradkowski is playing with 4 games experience and has better #s with a shaky O-line. The difference is he plays high % passes with a quick release on 3 step drops.

 

-Lienart looked good that one night where he got rid of the ball quickly and accurately against the Bears with 3 step drops.

 

Facts are good QBs make the players look better around them. JP has progressed since last year but he lacks so much football intuition he looks like an athletic version of Bledsoe with less accuracy on passes over 15 yards.

 

Nall might not be the answer, but at this point we are throwing away the possibility of seeing if we have something with Nall (forget Holcomb, we know his capacities). What have we got to lose? JP isn't on a weekly progression chart so it's not like he's going to regress, and his progression isn't growing exponentially.

 

It's time to see if these team has other options at QB this year. JP might be good someday, but Nall might be better. A 4 week trial period is fair-enough. It gives JP enough time to clear his head, check our options and move forward for next year.

 

I really believe if he wasn't a 1st rounder people would be far less lenient. People would be calling him decent depth and a good shoe in. Give him a 1st round tag and we want to waste 2 more years on him. Sorry, but guys who sit the pine do learn the game (Culpepper, McNair, Romo, et al.). It's time for him to learn and try our other options or expend the rest of the team, alienate the offensive players who want stats for contractual reasons, and see our full options.

 

Nall might not be the answer, but we have to see. If he doesn't we go back to status quo. I believe this should happen after Indy next week. To me it's low-risk with potential high rewards.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BoondckCL]

JP's problems can be summarized in an analogous way to Bledsoe:

-If we had a better O-line

-Better receivers (minus 2002)

-Too long in the pocket

-Fumbles too much

 

Now what's the downside to starting Nall at this point? We hurt JP's feelings? When guys like the 6th round Gradkowski have a better grasp of the NFL at this point we have to start asking why not look at Nall for a few games before we waste another season on ineptness.

 

-Brady throws to the worst receiving core in the entire NFL, they get separation. Price, Reed, Evans are better than Caldwell, Brown, and the other no-names.

 

-Gradkowski is playing with 4 games experience and has better #s with a shaky O-line. The difference is he plays high % passes with a quick release on 3 step drops.

 

-Lienart looked good that one night where he got rid of the ball quickly and accurately against the Bears with 3 step drops.

 

Facts are good QBs make the players look better around them. JP has progressed since last year but he lacks so much football intuition he looks like an athletic version of Bledsoe with less accuracy on passes over 15 yards.

 

Nall might not be the answer, but at this point we are throwing away the possibility of seeing if we have something with Nall (forget Holcomb, we know his capacities). What have we got to lose? JP isn't on a weekly progression chart so it's not like he's going to regress, and his progression isn't growing exponentially.

 

It's time to see if these team has other options at QB this year. JP might be good someday, but Nall might be better. A 4 week trial period is fair-enough. It gives JP enough time to clear his head, check our options and move forward for next year.

 

I really believe if he wasn't a 1st rounder people would be far less lenient. People would be calling him decent depth and a good shoe in. Give him a 1st round tag and we want to waste 2 more years on him. Sorry, but guys who sit the pine do learn the game (Culpepper, McNair, Romo, et al.). It's time for him to learn and try our other options or expend the rest of the team, alienate the offensive players who want stats for contractual reasons, and see our full options.

 

Nall might not be the answer, but we have to see. If he doesn't we go back to status quo. I believe this should happen after Indy next week. To me it's low-risk with potential high rewards.

 

GO BILLS!!!

826390[/snapback]

 

Rather bold for someone who joined within the week.

[mike1011]

So if you add 10,000 posts to my name it makes sense? Either what I said makes sense or it doesn't. The quantitative degree of posts doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

 

I can discuss football with or without a lot of posts on this board. I was with the standard buffalobills.com board until it became a board full of juveniles. From what I see, people can actually discuss football on this board (well, most of the time).

[BoondckCL]

So if you add 10,000 posts to my name it makes sense? Either what I said makes sense or it doesn't. The quantitative degree of posts doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

 

I can discuss football with or without a lot of posts on this board. I was with the standard buffalobills.com board until it became a board full of juveniles. From what I see, people can actually discuss football on this board (well, most of the time).

826427[/snapback]

 

No, i'm not saying that. I hate people who think or feel that way. What i am saying is that most people start off with small things and then work their way up to we should oust the starting quarterback and send this team into turmoil threads.

 

Good Luck, you'll have Holcomb's Arm and Dax in here in no time.

[Dibs]

.....Nall might not be the answer, but at this point we are throwing away the possibility of seeing if we have something with Nall (forget Holcomb, we know his capacities). What have we got to lose? JP isn't on a weekly progression chart so it's not like he's going to regress, and his progression isn't growing exponentially.

 

It's time to see if these team has other options at QB this year......

826390[/snapback]

Oh....OK then.

Have you seen how good/bad Nall is in practice?

Have you been able to make any sort of assessment on Nall apart from you have lost patients with JP and want an alternative.....the only alternative being Nall(or Holcombe but we won't go there)?

 

Maybe you were impressed with the way GB were so enthused with him they simply let him move on knowing that Favre would have 1(at best) more year.....or that after having him for 3 years they spend a 1st round pick on Rodgers(who apparently is not impressing in GB).

Maybe it was his lofty college pedigree that you remember as impressive enough that without seeing how he is now, you are willing to put him out there ahead of JP....hang on, him being a 5th round pick he didn't show too much in college.

Maybe it is the fact that JP was picked by Marv & DJ...therefore being 'their guy' & Nall was from the previous regime....therefore Marv & DJ would feel no obligation to him. Oh, silly me....it's the other way around.

Maybe you feel the guy who cannot surplant Holcombe as the #2QB is just tricking.

 

Tell me again what it is in Nall that you have actually seen to make you think it would be worth the chance?

 

I'm not saying Nall is not good or has no chance to be better than JP. What I am saying is......

How the hell would any of us have any idea how good/bad Nall is! Calling for him to be put in is mindless emotion based on impatience. We all have been patient for years.....to throw logic out the window based on the concept that "we have waited long enough already" is not going to change the reality of the situation.

 

If the coaches put him in, it will show that they see things in Nall from practice(& that will be fine & dandy). It will also show(everyone) that they believe that (more than likely) JP will not make it. IMO they will not do that unless they truly believe it to be the case....in which case, God help us because we will need (more than likely) at least another 3 years of patients in the future....probably a lot more.

 

BTW....welcome to TSW.

[zow2]

Hey 6 posts but I'll still back you!!

 

You hit on some obvious points. The big problem as i said during the game day thread is he is not getting better. He is staying stagnant at his ability to read NFL defenses (plus holding onto the ball too long) while the NFL defensive masterminds have gotten better at making him look like a 1st start rookie. That's why he looked pretty good early in the year and now looks worse than Gradkowski.

 

By the way, i realize Big Ben lost yesterday but his O-line was getting killed and he was scrambling around making plays all over the place for like 400+ yds. I don't need to see JP throw for 400 yds but i want to see him using his legs and brain to make stuff happen when things break down. He did nothing yesterday to make me feel any better about his ability. I'm still rooting for him.

[JPTheRealDeal07]

I understand everybodys frustration with JP but benching him now is pointless, HAVE YOU ALL FORGOTTEN HOW MUCH WE GAVE UP FOR HIM? He just started his 16th game, over a 3 year span, hardly a barometer for how good he'll be. What's the point of starting Nall or Holcomb? So MAYYYBE we can go 6-10 instead of 5-11 or 4-12? Yay! You give JP the season, if he bombs, we move on, if not, he's our guy. End of story

[RayFinkle]

He just started his 16th game, over a 3 year span, hardly a barometer for how good he'll be.

How long does one need?

[Reed83HOF]

Hey 6 posts but I'll still back you!!

 

You hit on some obvious points.  The big problem as i said during the game day thread is he is not getting better.  He is staying stagnant at his ability to read NFL defenses (plus holding onto the ball too long) while the NFL defensive masterminds have gotten better at making him look like a 1st start rookie.  That's why he looked pretty good early in the year and now looks worse than Gradkowski.

 

By the way,  i realize Big Ben lost yesterday but his O-line was getting killed and he was scrambling around making plays all over the place for like 400+ yds.  I don't need to see JP throw for 400 yds but i want to see him using his legs and brain to make stuff happen when things break down.  He did nothing yesterday to make me feel any better about his ability.  I'm still rooting for him.

826516[/snapback]

 

I posted this right before the game yeaterday...kinda got buried on the topic post...

 

TSW topic

 

Basically Fairchild and co, want him to stay in the pocket to learn to read defenses...too a degree I understand this, but at some point with a crappy OL, he has to move around and make a play here or there...I like JP he says the right things, it seems like he actually tries, but he reminds me of RJ...

 

For awhile I thought he was playing ok; then he started staring down the WRs again...oh and btw..the ball to Evans was underthrown...he did a good job of getting it down there with a bunch of people around him....had Al Harris been closer, it very well could have been and int...

 

Didn't the Dolphins torch the Packers secondary? I know there OL is worse than ours...they had Benny as a starter

[Pyrite Gal]

 

Now what's the downside to starting Nall at this point? We hurt JP's feelings? When guys like the 6th round Gradkowski have a better grasp of the NFL at this point we have to start asking why not look at Nall for a few games before we waste another season on ineptness.

 

Nall might not be the answer, but we have to see. If he doesn't we go back to status quo. I believe this should happen after Indy next week. To me it's low-risk with potential high rewards.

 

GO BILLS!!!

826390[/snapback]

 

 

The downside is that if one accepts the standard you apply to JP then the same standard should also be applied to Nall. The standard you set for a QB being able to show he is the real deal completely eliminates any risk to waiting to start Nall if you judge JP can potentially profit for more time.

 

If Nall is in fact the real deal we ALL hope for meeting your Gradkowski standard, there is no rush whatsoever to go with him. If one judges that Nall MAY potentially develop (even if the chances are few) with additional nurse-maiding starts, there is little cost to wait until game 12 to start Nall, as after 4 games this season by game 16 we will be able to tell whether he has met your lofty Gradkowsni standards.

 

For the coaches its a relatively pure judgment about what they think is useful in developing the QB's and any potential costs to the other QB development to invest in the other player.

 

Your own standard pretty much lets the Bills off the hook for taking their time with JP as you set an expectation that Nall would need to show development and potential pretty quickly or its quite reasonably off to the FA market for a QB this off-season in search of a QB.

 

The capital investment in JP easily dictates giving him a few more games to see if he is another Brad Johnson (sucked so bad in two outings he justified getting traded before he proved to be good enough to QB a team to an SB win). By your own standard, one can easily wait another quarter of a season and still give Nall enough time to show what he's got.

[JPTheRealDeal07]

How long does one need?

826569[/snapback]

 

 

More than 16 games? Hows that? Theres a laundry list of QB's who took awhile to catch on

[tennesseeboy]

So if you add 10,000 posts to my name it makes sense? Either what I said makes sense or it doesn't. The quantitative degree of posts doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

 

I can discuss football with or without a lot of posts on this board. I was with the standard buffalobills.com board until it became a board full of juveniles. From what I see, people can actually discuss football on this board (well, most of the time).

826427[/snapback]

We are 3/5 with a bad offensive line. We don't have much to go on as to whether Losman is good or not. Should we have addressed the o-line in the offseason? Yup..but getting rid of Losman isn't the way to go. At the end of the season they can assess him and cut him if necessary. Nall or Holcomb aren't going to take us to the playoffs, and neither of them is our qb of the future, so we might as well continue and get a good assessment of Losman for the remainder of the season and just plain cut him if he doesn't work out. I suspect he might work out to be a fine qb.

[jdubs]

not another one of these threads... i'm getting pretty sick of seeing these type of threads. you people are so impatient. lighten up, we won yesterday in case you forgot!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Didn't the Dolphins torch the Packers secondary? I know there OL is worse than ours...they had Benny as a starter

826575[/snapback]

How many years of experience does their QB have? IIRC Harrington was run out of town on a rail in Detroit. Yet, he has four years of seeing NFL defenses behind him.

 

Only a fool would not be able to make that distinction.

[JPTheRealDeal07]

not another one of these threads...  i'm getting pretty sick of seeing these type of threads.  you people are so impatient.  lighten up, we won yesterday in case you forgot!

826597[/snapback]

 

 

But "JP only completed 8 passes", and " He losts his confidence", and " We have craig nall!"...pfft, these fans are a joke

[jdubs]

But "JP only completed 8 passes", and " He losts his confidence", and " We have craig nall!"...pfft, these fans are a joke

826603[/snapback]

 

seriously, that's all this board has become. everyone cries about JP being the QB when they overlook the single most important factor in judging his performance - THE O LINE. you can't play a good game with crappy pass protection. jp was getting no time in the pocket yesterday for the most part.

[Reed83HOF]

How many years of experience does their QB have?  IIRC Harrington was run out of town on a rail in Detroit.  Yet, he has four years of seeing NFL defenses behind him.

 

Only a fool would not be able to make that distinction.

826601[/snapback]

 

If I recall correctlty their QB was drafted right before MW....coming out of college, I thought he would have been a great QB...I actually wanted to see us draft him at the time...

 

I wasn't trying to make a point about JP in particular, he needs the rest of the season...it just seems that MM possibly called a better game; my only point was the dolphins lit'em up...and that their OL is prolly worse than ours...

[JPTheRealDeal07]

it is pathetic, we finally win and you cant even tell. Who cares if he completed 8 passes, he was 8-15, 105 and a TD. Not that horrible. Its hard to be accurate when you cant step into your throws, the kid is probably gun shy because he gets bombed everytime he tries to step in and chuck it deep, give him a break

[colin]

i don't think we should start nall, but i'll be pretty surprised if JP is anything but crap.

 

he hasn't shown much, and each time he does he turns into a turnover machine or the ultimate "you suck so don't lose the game no your own" QB.

 

we have won 3 games this season.

 

he was decent against Minni who can't produce any pass rush at all.

 

he was a non factor against miami

 

he was a non factor against GB (he made one play to a wide open guy on a blown coverage).

 

he brings nothing and there are 20 qbs who can step in today and do better (altho prolly not nall).

 

that said i hope he snaps into it and figures out what he needs to do and finishes how he started.

[bluv]

I understand everybodys frustration with JP but benching him now is pointless, HAVE YOU ALL FORGOTTEN HOW MUCH WE GAVE UP FOR HIM? He just started his 16th game, over a 3 year span, hardly a barometer for how good he'll be. What's the point of starting Nall or Holcomb? So MAYYYBE we can go 6-10 instead of 5-11 or 4-12? Yay! You give JP the season, if he bombs, we move on, if not, he's our guy. End of story

826565[/snapback]

Exactly. It would be STUPID for the Bills to give up on JP and bring in other UNPROVEN CAREER BACKUP QB's that will probably only make a moderate difference to our team. I can see if this was a team that was expected to compete and had a lot of high priced veterans and was ready to win now and the onlt thing holding this team back was the QB. Or if JP was a 6th round pick. He is a 1st round pick that we moved up to pick and he has only started 16 games under 2 different regimes. And to top that off he has played behind shabby blocking with an average receiving corp and no offensive scheme whatsoever. The only way a QB change makes sense would be if the other QB's turn out to be franchise QB's and lead this team for at least the next 4-5 years. If not, then we will still need a QB and we will be paying JP to rot on the bench and still not fully knowing wheteher he can play.

 

My biggest reason for having faith in JP is that he has shown this year that he can make every type throw with accuracy. Last year we know he had a gun but no touch whatsoever on short passes. Now he needs to learn how to better read defenses and be more consistent - things that takes time to develop; certainly more than 16 games on a BAD offensive team with no scheme!