Why throw an entire season away because of one!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Can we throw away a poster to save this board?

[RuntheDamnBall]

I guess the difference between you and I is that you are willing to sit through nine more games of this. I'm ready to move on. I've seen enough. I don't think Losman will magically learn how to play QB in the NFL in nine weeks.

819628[/snapback]

Well, seeing as how you're thankfully not the one entrusted with the decision, you have a few options:

1) don't watch the games

2) don't start another dumb JP Losman post

3) stop whining

[DeLuca1967]

Well, seeing as how you're thankfully not the one entrusted with the decision, you have a few options:

1) don't watch the games

2) don't start another dumb JP Losman post

3) stop whining

819633[/snapback]

 

You are so clever. How can anyone compete with wit like that? You offer so much. How are not on TV getting paid for such insite?

[RuntheDamnBall]

You are so clever. How can anyone compete with wit like that? You offer so much. How are not on TV getting paid for such insite?

819701[/snapback]

I think in my audition they told me I didn't use the devil smiley enough. BTW, it's insight.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Of the 15 Bills turnovers? How many are Losman's?

JP has 11 of them (5 fumbles lost and 6 INT's). But again, how many drives have opponents started on the Bills' side of the field, much less the 30-yard line?

[cåblelady]

Can we throw away a poster to save this board?

819630[/snapback]

[DeLuca1967]

JP has 11 of them (5 fumbles lost and 6 INT's).  But again, how many drives have opponents started on the Bills' side of the field, much less the 30-yard line?

819733[/snapback]

 

Bills opponents have had 11 drive starts on the Bills side of the field.

 

11 Drives

6 TDs

1 FG

1 Missed FG

 

The Bills on the other hand have had 8 drive starts on the other side of the 50.

 

8 Drives

3 FG (2 of the Bills FG drives ended in negative yards)

1 TD - That being the late TD against the Bears.

 

4 of the 8 drives ended in negative yards.

 

The Bills defense has given the offense some decent field position. Not a ton. But some.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

And how many drives over 50 yards has the defense given up?

[Pyrite Gal]

I guess the difference between you and I is that you are willing to sit through nine more games of this. I'm ready to move on. I've seen enough. I don't think Losman will magically learn how to play QB in the NFL in nine weeks.

819628[/snapback]

 

I think the difference between you and the posters who disagree with you (and also the difference between you and the football professional who coach the Bills and Ralph who has money on the table( is that while you are unwilling to sit through 9 more games of the JP development saga they are willing to sit (coach and own) through this.

 

My sense of this situation is that I think they are correct in this judgment and you are wrong in your view,

 

My sense of this is because:

 

1. Holcomb and Nall show no real signs of being better options for winning with this team or even better training options for the othe vets.

 

This judgment says less about any belief that JP is the real deal but actually a belief which is I think substantiated by their play that Nall and KH really do not have a lot to offer which is clearly better than even a troubled JP.

 

Holcomb demonstrated with his play last year that like JP he is at best one step forward in his play ( ex. the KC game) and one step back (ex. the NYJ game). He secured this judgment when he retained the #1 QB position on the depth chart as pre-season began and he simply sucked running the Fairchild O and sucked in comparison to JP.

 

JP also has been inadequate at best with his play so far this season, but the signs seem to point toi KH actually being worse than that running this offense with this team. It is not unreasonable to have the experienced Holcomb as your back-up if you are forced to go to him, because there is such uncertainty regarding Nall, but you would need to lay our a compelling case to voluntarily move to KH given his poor play when he had more than a fair shot with this offense and these players in pre-season.

 

Particularly since it seems pretty clear we cannot even luck into the playoffs with how poorly we have performed so far and how well NE has performed in terms of Ws, I think there is a better case to be made to switch from JP to Nall as at least Nall is not on the backside of his career as far as age and he actually finally got into the line0up after his pre-season injury and though he did not perform well enough in this short stint to command more time, he was oribabkly better than Holcomb on the whole.

 

Yet, keeping KH as the #2 made more sense than going with Nall since he was adequate at best in his short stint but has no experience starting games in the NFL and little experience in cruncg time and KH as long as he finally ended his really bad play which he began the pre-season with appears to be a better back-up candidate.

 

As far as benching JP now as those who are unwilling to watch him play anymore want to do, it seems most likely that if we did this and threw Nall into the game without a more gradual process we likely would destroy all 3 QBs as potential Bills as I think Holcomb would be done as a Bill if he were demoted to #3 and I think that Nall needs a little more time to practice with better players, and get used to the notion he is moving up than to have him promoted from #3 to #1.

 

2. While some fans are so impatient they want to pull the plug on JP, I think NFL professionals make a correct judgment that based on his play and even limited progress it is too early to conclude JP cannot ever be a reasonable pro QB. I too doubt he will be a great one, but there are simply examples of players like Brad Johnson who were so bad they were cut twice and deservedly so given his play, but they proved capable of winning an SB with the right team and he plays reasonably well with MN on the backside of his career.

 

JP has shown definite faults in his play such as his taking a penalty for delay of game when he first came in and then being forced to call a TO when he could not get the play called in his second game and then really only leading the team to a TD in his third game because he kept handing it off to WM on a short field.

 

However, he followed up each of these episodes of poor play (not to mention him getting overwhelmed when MM threw him into a game unexpectedly to mop up for a demolished Bledsoe in NE) wuith improvements like calling a TO instead of taking the penalty, and finally being able to put together a drive for a TD in his first year.

 

Likewise, JP though not a good QB (yet?) has definitely shown a bit more control than the sometimes near panic he showed last year. When you add to this that he has shown some incredible athleticism and ability to make plays such as when he scrambled from what seemed like a certain sack to his write and has the downfield vision to hit Reed for a 1st down last game. The Bills coaches seem to disagree with you (correctly IMHO) that JP has shown enough improvment from some bad play that he actually could get it together either seemingly suddenly or easily over next off-season. This does not mean to me that you gurantee him a shot next season or even guarantee him playing time through the end of this season if he performs badly.

 

However, it seems to me that even a reasonable amount of patience certainly for a coach and even for us wild-eyed fans dictates that you are no where near benching him and we suffer through some more steps back by him this season as long as he shows the steps forward reflected in him actually having a QB rating in the high 70s still (QB rating is definitely not a perfect rating of a QB and arguably is even a bad rating in particular cases, but I think while maybe bad it is the BEST rating out there and cannot be simply ignored without good reason though it should not be bowed too uncritically in all cases).

 

3. The other reason in reality for which you do not bench or give up on JP is that Ralph really has invested a serious chunk of change in JP. This might have been foolishness or bad assessment of TDs and Modraks part, but it is reality that there are true salary cap constraints which force a team to give a 1st rounder every possible chance and those are still in play in reality for Ralph and JP. You may not like it and I may not like it, but that is simply the reality and a fan would be foolish to ignore reality.

 

The bottom line is I think your proposal to not want to watch JP anymore has little to do with the reality of the NFL as JP still may turn it around (I would not bet the ranch and the dog he will but it is possible), the Bills do not have reasonable alternatives to produce wins or allow for better practice from Nall or KH than even the unsatisfactory performance of JP so far.

 

Further, it would be fairlu silly for the coaches to give up on JP given the improvments one can see in his inadequate play and given the past experience of young QNs suddenly getting it (Come on players like Favre and Young wer so bad initially they were tradable and they improved a little to become at least OK- I'm not saying that JP is Favre or Young, but I am saying that an observer would be foolish to conclude JP is done at this point) and finally that the realities of the salary cap and Ralph's inveestment simply make it to early to throw him under the bus.

[DeLuca1967]

"1. Holcomb and Nall show no real signs of being better options for winning with this team "

 

As I have said previously. I don't disagree with this point. I go back to my post that started this thread. Don't you think the Bills coaches owe it to the other 50+ players to at least give either Holcomb or Nall a try?

 

There is no evidence that either would be better. I do know that the QB that's in there now isn't getting the job done. He is responsible for 73% of the teams turnovers. The safety and the sack at the end of the half are two plays you wouldn't expect from a high school QB.

 

I do know that you are right that there will be no changes made at QB. There is no pressure to win on this coach or GM. Marv is there to make Ralph feel good. So there is no angry owner demanding results. 5-11 followed by another losing season. Does Ralph even care at this point?

 

I will continue to disagree with you that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. The other guys in the locker room deserve a chance to find out.

[bob marley]

go away doug flutie. will you never leave. you are a hater. I bet you were the dorky kid that got beat up a lot in high school. never grow up.

[Captain Hindsight]

It has nothing to do with what Holcomb and Nall have shown. It's what I have seen and haven't seen from Losman. I know what I am going to get from Losman. I have and idea about Holcomb and know nothing about Nall. Now is the time to find out.

 

I know Losman contributes nothing that gives this team a chance to win. It's time to find out about Nall and Holcomb. That way you tell the other 50 guys that you tried eveything to win as many games as possible.

819572[/snapback]

ok you wanna know what you got with holcomb. he backed up tim couch for a reason. hes not a statrer in the nfl, hes a carrer backup. Nall looked great backing up doug perderson if GB (who?). All off season this board was talijng about how we need to statrt losman and see what he can do, because he wasnt given a fair shot last year. you can say whatever you want but i dont see any resoan to say that this team is anywhere near playoff cliber with a different qb. the defense gives up over a hundred yrds rushing a game, our corners have been awsome(not)we have to rookie safetys, our line cant block worth a sh*t so we had to shake that up o and our d line (except shobel kelsey/denny) gets pushed back every play. the scheme isnt working yet on d the recivers are having touble bc the only reciever that is any good is evans so teams are doubling him. McGahee has been kind of a disappointment and our #1 ranked special teams has been pretty average. But since jp is coaching and playing is every aspect of the game we should just cut him and go with the carrer backup. then we have qb that we know cant win with a team that lacks the talent (ya i said it) hell lets sign jeff george hes still alive. with that fix it? no we need to see what he can with a full season every qb needs time and you can say big been was good but look at the team, brady was good look at the team, peyton Manning was horrible in his first year. i think they won 3 games but nobody gae up on him and look where he is now.

 

Nobody has ever questioned his work ethic. JP wants to succed he wants to win he want to get better, for a qb on a young team that is rebuilding that is a great guy to have behind center. Holcomb is okay in short stints. Nall said when he came to buffalo he just wants to start, Losman wants to get better id rether have him in there and watch him learn

[DeLuca1967]

And how many drives over 50 yards has the defense given up?

819873[/snapback]

 

By doing quick math I would say 11 TD drives and 8 field goals. Which I think comes out to about 14 points a game on drives over 50+.

[DeLuca1967]

ok you wanna know what you got with holcomb. he backed up tim couch for a reason. hes not a statrer in the nfl, hes a carrer backup. Nall looked great backing up doug perderson if GB (who?). All off season this board was talijng about how we need to statrt losman and see what he can do, because he wasnt given a fair shot last year. you can say whatever you want but i dont see any resoan to say that this team is anywhere near playoff cliber with a different qb. the defense gives up over a hundred yrds rushing a game, our corners have been awsome(not)we have to rookie safetys, our line cant block worth a sh*t so we had to shake that up o and our d line (except shobel kelsey/denny) gets pushed back every play. the scheme isnt working yet on d the recivers are having touble bc the only reciever that is any good is evans so teams are doubling him. McGahee has been kind of a disappointment and our #1 ranked special teams has been pretty average. But since jp is coaching and playing is every aspect of the game we should just cut him and go with the carrer backup. then we have qb that we know cant win with a team that lacks the talent (ya i said it) hell lets sign jeff george hes still alive. with that fix it? no we need to see what he can with a full season every qb needs time and you can say big been was good but look at the team, brady was good look at the team, peyton Manning was horrible in his first year. i think they won 3 games but nobody gae up on him and look where he is now.

 

        Nobody has ever questioned his work ethic. JP wants to succed he wants to win he want to get better, for a qb on a young team that is rebuilding that is a great guy to have behind center. Holcomb is okay in short stints. Nall said when he came to buffalo he just wants to start, Losman wants to get better id rether have him in there and watch him learn

819927[/snapback]

 

I don't care what Holcomb and Nall did before. They are on the roster so lets give them a shot.

 

And of course Losamn works hard and wants to get better. So does every other QB in the NFL. Starters, backups and practice squad QB's all work hard and want to get better.

 

And it is so tired to read posts about other QB's. What Manning, Brady or Favre did in their careers has nothing to do with how poorly Losman has played these first seven games. Drew Brees first 30 starts has nothing to do with the 11 turnovers Losman has.

 

That so many of you are trying so hard to deflect from Losmans lack of development and growth this season is telling. It tells me I and others may be right.

[Albany,n.y.]

The Bills don't owe 50+ players anything other than their paycheck and the chance to show they are worthy of playing on a chapionship team.

 

The Bills management owes their fans and owner a chance at a championship. That means finding out which players among the 53 are best qualified to stick around and be members of a champion.

 

Marv is quite familiar with the process, he came in in 1986 & kept a core of winners & dumped the rest. That's what he's doing now. He already knows that Holcomb & Nall cannot be the QB on that champion.

 

He's giving JP time, because JP might be the guy & if he proves otherwise, Marv doesn't have to waste any more time before looking for a new QB. The answer could have been known by now if last years management had the guts to NOT DO what you're suggesting.

 

The losers who will soon be gone are owed nothing on any given Sunday when it comes to squeezing out a 6-10 season instead of a 4-12 one.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't care what Holcomb and Nall did before. They are on the roster so lets give them a shot.

 

And of course Losamn works hard and wants to get better. So does every other QB in the NFL. Starters, backups and practice squad QB's all work hard and want to get better. 

 

And it is so tired to read posts about other QB's. What Manning, Brady or Favre did in their careers has nothing to do with how poorly Losman has played these first seven games.

819942[/snapback]

You Losman haters never cease to amaze. How many bad turnovers did Jimbo commit? Plenty. How many pro seasons did he have before he started to shine in Buffalo? Four.

 

Losman has come out of these "poor" first seven games with a 62% completion rate, three games in which he had completions of over 40 yards, and steady improvement over last year's lost season. He is learning. Even his coach calls him a rookie from a developmental standpoint.

 

I am so glad he doesn't listen to impatient "fans" like you who think that one magic move will make this altogether sorry team a playoff team. Losman's line is so bad a 7th rounder is being called an upgrade at tackle. He's been blindsided more times this year than I can count, and some of the 11 turnovers you harp on were direct results of those hits. His defense kills itself by committing a killer penalty on what was a stalled drive. Yet it's all his fault to the people who appear to know nothing about football. These kinds of posts remind me of a baby in the most complete sense of the word: "Waaaah, I want it NOW!"

[Pyrite Gal]

"1. Holcomb and Nall show no real signs of being better options for winning with this team "

 

As I have said previously. I don't disagree with this point. I go back to my post that started this thread. Don't you think the Bills coaches owe it to the other 50+ players to at least give either Holcomb or Nall a try?

 

There is no evidence that either would be better. I do know that the QB that's in there now isn't getting the job done. He is responsible for 73% of the teams turnovers. The safety and the sack at the end of the half are two plays you wouldn't expect from a high school QB.

 

I do know that you are right that there will be no changes made at QB. There is no pressure to win on this coach or GM. Marv is there to make Ralph feel good. So there is no angry owner demanding results. 5-11 followed by another losing season. Does Ralph even care at this point?

 

I will continue to disagree with you that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. The other guys in the locker room deserve a chance to find out.

819922[/snapback]

 

 

Its fine if you want to ignore the reality that there is little to no evidence that Holcomb or Nall will solve your own stated issue of seeing a better performance from this team.

 

Its also fine that you state you are willing to ignore the reality that this team will make no change at QN (though your stated rationale for this that the coach and GM are under no pressure to win as Ralph is a happy boy with Marv around seema to completely ignore the reality that Ralph is clearly under the pressure that he will likely die at some point sooner or later and he pretty badly would like an SB win before he moves to a better address. It also ignores the reality thst Jauron as a former athlete and anybody who has been a successful HC in the NFL likeMarv are intensely competive individuals who simply hate to lose, there is no evidence whatsoever that you have stated or I have seen that indicates these men are not under pressure to win. If your rationale for drawing this conclusion is not based on any objective evidence but seems logical or obvious to you it says more about how you think than about them.

 

Again despite stating you choose to ignore reality on these two points, it appears you are hitting the trifecta by simply failing to state any denonstrable evidence regarding your opinion that JP has not shown some improvements in his game to go with the step backards and problems he shows.

 

JP's play is clearly problematic, however, his main problems today (a bad case of losing fumbles this season and he has locked onto some receivers a bit to much with his eyesight and good DCs read his eyes and can pick it offt are in fact new problems rather than the problems he has last year.

 

Last year, JPs big problem seem to be that he was pressing a bit too much and got to the point where he bailed out to soon on plays and some even accused him of having happy feet. He also would clearly try to make thing happen last year even when there was nothing there and many times this led to a bad turnover.

 

He has improved in these facets of the game this year and Jauron/Fairchild are running a conservative offense that some complain (I think legitimately does not take enough chances abd should go downfield a bit more.

 

Just like the clear improvement demonstrated by real life occurences in his first year where JP was bad in his initial mop-up appearances for Bledsoe at getting plays called in the huddle and taking unecessary punishment going for an extra couple of meaningless yards, he improved in these first year problems enough that TD felt comfortable cutting Bledsoe and handing him the job which even JP said was not the way to earn it.

 

Clearly again this year comparing JPs play to his horrendous 05 which led to him losing his job to KH, JP has improved his play this year over last.

 

Subjectively one can see this in my sense that he:

 

A. Is willing (perhaps too willing) to throw the ball away so that he lives to fight another day rather than risking an INT by forcing it in there.

B. Is willing to hang in there until the last minute to make the throw rather than bailing out early which led some to claim he had happy feet last year (those claims are not there today and if anything my complaint is that he now holds the ball a bit too long and his sack total is up because of this.

 

Objectively the fact he has improved is seen in him sporting an inadequate but still far better QB rating this year than last. The problems beimg new can also objectivelyu be seen in his INT numbers earlier in the season and in his career and his fumble #s previously as a Bill. Historically he had one of the lowest INT rates on any QB at Tulane and did not throw more than one if any in the first 4 or so games.

 

Multiple funbles for him in a game are also a new occurence for him. These problems seem pretty directly traceable to changes he has made in his game which are likely the cause of his statistical improvement in some facets of his work.

 

Generally, your indictments seem relatively easy to dismiss not simply because we all are entitled to our own opinions and if we disagree that is fine, but because your opinions do not seem to be supported by many objective facts.

 

Your strong indictment of him would seem to be just another fact-free opinion, but he has not played adequately (yet?) this year. However, your over the top and actually unsupported conclusions appear to only have some basis in reality by coincidence.

 

JP does have some real issues to be dealt with. However, his big current problems (the INTs and getting read by the DBs with even a cursory analysis seem to be effects of coaching changes in his game.

 

A rational assessment and debate of these problems would actually be whether folks thinks they can be solved or not. I think one can legitiamtely express doubts about solving them as these problems arehave popped up when another JP problem is solved. One can legitimately argue that if it is not one thing it is another with him.

 

However, to give the impression that his problems are the same as they were before is simply not correct and any indictment of him to be credible and certainly to support an extreme suggestion like benching him deserves a little more support than just a claim one is sick of him, particularly if you are going to admit you are simply willing to ignore reality in the face of folks pointing out various issues like Nall and Holcomb offer no credible alternative an that Ralph clearly feels the pressure to win because no one lasts forever then one shoukld not be suirprised if folks find your complaints fairly vacuous.

 

What alot of your view seems to fall back on is that for some reason KH or Nall is going to give the other players better practice than JP. I doubt this point as well as no one thinks Holcomb has the arm to give the WRs practice going deep and Nall is simply an unknown factor in terms of giving good reps.

 

If the coaches owe the players anything it is to give them their best judgment rather than simply make roster moves based on guesses and hopes/

[SnakeOiler]

You really should try thinking thru the possible scenarios first and see where they lead you. In my opinion, here are the 3 possible scenarios:

 

1) Pull JP, start Holcomb. Most obvious result: Team goes 4-12 or 5-11, JP is shot, we learn once again Holcomb is no good. At end of the season, we have no QB, and we are nowhere with JP. i.e., we're fu#*ed. We've thrown out 2007 and there is no hope in sight. Maybe draft a new guy and start another rookie on day 1 vs. go get a free agent like aaron brooks, jeff garcia, or kyle boller. No thanks. Or, go back to JP, after robbing him of a 1/2 season of development. Either way, 2007 is lost.

 

2) Pull JP, start Nall.

 

(A) Most obvious result: Team goes 4-12 or 5-11, JP is shot and we learn Nall is not the answer. At end of season, we have no QB, and we are nowhere with JP. i.e., we're fu#*ed. Result = step backwards again, starting a new QB in 2007 = doom. 2007 = 5-11, with no hope in site.

 

(B) Possible result, albeit unlikely -- Nall doesn't suck bad, and maybe he shows some improvement. But his is mediocre to below average. But maybe there is hope. All we can do is then give him a shot in 2007 to have a full season, most likely result = he's below average, team goes 6-10. Result = step backwards, and we're searching for a new QB for 2008. So 2007 is gone, and 2008 is question marks looking for a new guy.

 

More likely, (A) or (B)? While we the fans haven't seen Nall play and don't know what he can do -- the coaches see him everyday. They have his whole career on tape, and have talked to Green Bay coaches as well -- they have the info needed to make a decision on Nall, we do not. To pretend Nall is a total question mark is foolish. He is a question mark to the fans, but not to the coaching staff. If Nall had potential, Green Bay would not have planned to draft JP (until the Bills jumped in front of them), and they wouldn't have drafted Aaron Rodgers. Pretty important signal that you are ignoring.

 

3) Stick with JP. (A) possible result = JP continues to struggle, team goes 4-12 or 5-11. JP doesn't have it, we look for a new guy in 2007. (B) Possible result = JP continues to get better, team goes 4-12 or 5-11. Gains confidence, and we go into 2007 with a more experienced QB that will continue to get better. 2007 = 8-8, with possible playoffs in 2009.

 

The ONLY way to salvage 2007 is sticking with JP. You have to find out about him this year, then decide!

 

while you may talk about this year, one cannot put one's head in the sand and pretend like this is not a rebuilding year. You can't pretend that next year doesn't exist. It does....opening day 2007 is approaching.

[RuntheDamnBall]

You really should try thinking thru the possible scenarios first and see where they lead you.  In my opinion, here are the 3 possible scenarios:

 

1)  Pull JP, start Holcomb.  Most obvious result:  Team goes 4-12 or 5-11, JP is shot, we learn once again Holcomb is no good.  At end of the season, we have no QB, and we are nowhere with JP.  i.e., we're fu#*ed.  We've thrown out 2007 and there is no hope in sight.  Maybe draft a new guy and start another rookie on day 1 vs. go get a free agent like aaron brooks, jeff garcia, or kyle boller.  No thanks.  Or, go back to JP, after robbing him of a 1/2 season of development.  Either way, 2007 is lost.

 

2)  Pull JP, start Nall. 

 

   (A) Most obvious result:  Team goes 4-12 or 5-11, JP is shot and we learn Nall is not the answer.  At end of season, we have no QB, and we are nowhere with JP.  i.e., we're fu#*ed.  Result = step backwards again, starting a new QB in 2007 = doom.  2007 = 5-11, with no hope in site.

 

    (B) Possible result, albeit unlikely -- Nall doesn't suck bad, and maybe he shows some improvement.  But his is mediocre to below average.  But maybe there is hope.  All we can do is then give him a shot in 2007 to have a full season, most likely result = he's below average, team goes 6-10.  Result = step backwards, and we're searching for a new QB for 2008.  So 2007 is gone, and 2008 is question marks looking for a new guy. 

 

More likely, (A) or (B)?  While we the fans haven't seen Nall play and don't know what he can do -- the coaches see him everyday.  They have his whole career on tape, and have talked to Green Bay coaches as well -- they have the info needed to make a decision on Nall, we do not.  To pretend Nall is a total question mark is foolish.  He is a question mark to the fans, but not to the coaching staff.  If Nall had potential, Green Bay would not have planned to draft JP (until the Bills jumped in front of them), and they wouldn't have drafted Aaron Rodgers.  Pretty important signal that you are ignoring.

 

3)  Stick with JP.  (A) possible result = JP continues to struggle, team goes 4-12 or 5-11.  JP doesn't have it, we look for a new guy in 2007.  (B) Possible result = JP continues to get better, team goes 4-12 or 5-11.  Gains confidence, and we go into 2007 with a more experienced QB that will continue to get better.  2007 = 8-8, with possible playoffs in 2009.

 

The ONLY way to salvage 2007 is sticking with JP.  You have to find out about him this year, then decide! 

 

while you may talk about this year, one cannot put one's head in the sand and pretend like this is not a rebuilding year.  You can't pretend that next year doesn't exist.  It does....opening day 2007 is approaching.

820132[/snapback]

Great post. The whole anti-JP thing right now, especially in light of what we've got, is probably best illustrated by the Simpsons line "SOMEONE ELSE! SOMEONE ELSE!"

 

Well, "someone else" has obviously been seen by the coaching staff enough to determine that JP is a better option for now -- and staying with him now gives us better options for next season. It is the best option to see if this adversity can bring out something better in JP in this second half.

[DeLuca1967]

because your opinions do not seem to be supported by many objective facts.

820085[/snapback]

 

"objective facts" ? You should read most of the posts that many who hold your same position write if you want to see a void of "objective facts".

 

So far I have only seen two "objective facts" in favor of JP Losman staying the starter.

 

1) The Bills do not have a better QB on the roster. Again, to this I will say you won't know for sure until you try.

 

2) Other QB stats. It's funny how Pro-Losman posters have to look at what other QB's have done and not what Losman has done or is doing. Somehow the fact that Jim Kelly through a bad pass in 1987 makes JP Losman a better QB. I guess they have to since there is nothing in Losman's NFL resume that shows he's an NFL QB.

 

Here are some of what I consider "objective facts" :

 

11 turnovers in 7 games. Rest of team - 4.

 

Horrible third down conversion percentage. Throwing it two yards on 3 and 10 helps your stats but does nothing to help the team win.

 

21 sacks in 7 games for -173. These are Rob Johnson like numbers.

 

6 TD passes in 7 games.

 

8 drives starts on the opponents side of the 50. 4 drives end in negative yardage.

 

Bills passing attack is 28th in the league. Total offense is 29th.

 

The "Safety". Followed by 0 1st downs in the 4th quarter.

 

The "Sack" at the end of the half.

 

The "Drive" at the end of the Jets game.

 

Running into a ref and fumbling the ball.

 

The INT early in the 3rd quarter against the Bears.

 

I can go on and on.

[cåblelady]

I can go on and on. 

820555[/snapback]

Please don't.

[DeLuca1967]

Please don't. 

820557[/snapback]

 

Anything for a lady.

 

You know what's funny. Early in the summer when people were saying Nall has a chance to the QB I was against it. I was all for giving Losman his time. Now I think he has had enough time.

[cantankerous]

Man Deluca...those numbers really put things in perspective.

[RuntheDamnBall]

DeLuca, your objective facts lack context. A lot of 'em. How can you say "it doesn't matter what other quarterbacks do, Losman sucks and always will suck," when in essence what you are asking for is another quarterback?

 

Hence, people compare him to other QBs to lend the whole issue some context. They may not all be the best comparisons, but neither are your stats -- on their own. If someone can show that a successful QB had the same kinds of bad stats early in his career, it's relevant. It means there is a chance for the guy to grow. Again, I'm glad reactionaries like you don't make these decisions. It would make Bills football far more unbearable, and that's saying something.

[haus]

My biggest concern is loosing the Bills to LA. I was under the impression that for any hope in keeping the Bills here they needed to improve and generate interest from everyone who resides here.I dont think we have time to wait and hope JP develops.God forbid if ralph is gone before this occurs, then what? Its quite possible we are running out of time here in Buffalo. Its been along time since we have had a good team. Im not saying Nall or holcomb are the answer, but it cant hurt to try. You say what do we have to loose , leave Losman in and let him develop. I say maybe our football team.

[DeLuca1967]

DeLuca, your objective facts lack context.  A lot of 'em.  How can you say "it doesn't matter what other quarterbacks do, Losman sucks and always will suck," when in essence what you are asking for is another quarterback?

 

Hence, people compare him to other QBs to lend the whole issue some context.  They may not all be the best comparisons, but neither are your stats -- on their own.  If someone can show that a successful QB had the same kinds of bad stats early in his career, it's relevant.  It means there is a chance for the guy to grow.  Again, I'm glad reactionaries like you don't make these decisions.  It would make Bills football far more unbearable, and that's saying something.

820644[/snapback]

 

I never said that.

 

I also think it is time to start thinking about another QB. If you want to bring other QB's into this fray? Let's

 

It took only 17 starts to realize/prove that Todd Collins couldn't cut it as an NFL starter. How many starts does Losman have? 15 I think.

 

Let's compare other numbers.

 

Com%

Losman 55.3

Collins 54.7 - Only 3 completions behind.

 

TD's

Losman 14

Collins 12

 

INT's

Losman 15

Collins 13

 

YPA

Losman 6.24

Collins 6.20

 

Comp 20+

Losman 31

Collins 38

 

Comp 40+

Losman 9

Collins 12

 

I guesss you would say Collins deserved more time under you guidelines

 

If you want I can pull up the Rob Johnson numbers.

[Scraps]

"objective facts" ? You should read most of the posts that many who hold your same position write if you want to see a void of "objective facts".

 

So far I have only seen two "objective facts" in favor of JP Losman staying the starter.

 

1) The Bills do not have a better QB on the roster. Again, to this I will say you won't know for sure until you try.

820555[/snapback]

 

They tried, in preseason. Did you watch any of it?

[Scraps]

My biggest concern is loosing the Bills to LA.  I was under the impression that for any hope in keeping the Bills here they needed to improve and generate interest from everyone who resides here.I dont think we have time to wait and hope JP develops.God forbid if ralph is gone before this occurs, then what?                                                                                                                                                  Its quite possible we are running out of time here in Buffalo. Its been along time since we have had a good team. Im not saying Nall or holcomb are the answer, but it cant hurt to try. You say what do we have to loose , leave Losman in and let him develop. I say maybe our football team.

820658[/snapback]

And switching QBs will magically improve our horrendous offensive line or improve our fly weight defensive lines ability to stop the run?

[haus]

And switching QBs will magically improve our horrendous offensive line or improve our fly weight defensive lines ability to stop the run?

820671[/snapback]

[haus]

switching quarterbacks wont magically do anything to the offense or defensive line. It will simply switch quaterbacks and maybe give us some hope---maybe.But maybe is better then none.

[Scraps]

switching quarterbacks wont magically do anything to the offense or defensive line. It will simply switch quaterbacks and maybe give us some hope---maybe.But maybe is better then none.

820693[/snapback]

 

What hope are you going to get out of Kelly Holcomb? Haven't you already seen him and realized he doesn't have any upside?

[Dan]

Do you throw one season... or even 2.. away; if that will allow your players to develop thereby giving you 5+ years of Super Bowl contention?

 

Do you blow up your team every season, bringing in new guys and hoping to get lucky thereby giving you 1 year of Super Bowl contention?

 

I think that's the basis of this arguement and at the root of starting or benching JP. For me, its an easy decision.

[DeLuca1967]

Do you throw one season... or even 2.. away; if that will allow your players to develop thereby giving you 5+ years of Super Bowl contention?  

 

Do you blow up your team every season, bringing in new guys and hoping to get lucky thereby giving you 1 year of Super Bowl contention?

 

I think that's the basis of this arguement and at the root of starting or benching JP.  For me, its an easy decision.

820701[/snapback]

 

Did you get those pills from a doctor or a guy in a van?

 

Losman has yet to show he can compete in games on a regular basis. And you think another 20 starts will turn the Bills into the Pats?

 

News Flash.

 

If you want to compare the Bills to other NFL teams. You might want to start with the Cardinals and Lions. Superbowl contenders? Please. If the Bills don't turn it around soon? The 5-11 Bills of 2005 might be refered to as "The Glory Years".

[DeLuca1967]

What hope are you going to get out of Kelly Holcomb?  Haven't you already seen him and realized he doesn't have any upside?

820695[/snapback]

 

What hope are you going to get out of JP Losman? Haven't you already seen him and realized he doesn't have any upside?

 

Fits just as well

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Let's repeat the DeLuca mantra, shall we?

 

"It's ALL about the QB."

"It's ALL about the QB."

"It's ALL about the QB."

 

[Cornerville]

If you want to compare the Bills to other NFL teams. You might want to start with the Cardinals and Lions. Superbowl contenders? Please. If the Bills don't turn it around soon? The 5-11 Bills of 2005 might be refered to as "The Glory Years".

820706[/snapback]

 

 

BINGO

[Scraps]

What hope are you going to get out of JP Losman?  Haven't you already seen him and realized he doesn't have any upside?

 

Fits just as well

820707[/snapback]

 

No it doesn't. I'm not pleased with the way Losman has been playing but he has the physical tools. Holcomb does not. Losman has not played as well as I might like but he has improved over last year. There are plenty of QBs who teams have given up on only to turn it around, a fact you routinely ignore in your anti-Losman jihad. I'm willing to wait until the end of the season. If I thought changing QBs might make the difference between making the play-offs or not, I might think differently but this team is a long way from that because it is weak in so many places, particularly the offensive and defensive lines.

 

I'd rather go 2-14 with Losman, know that he doesn't have "IT", have a chance at a very high draft pick, and the ability to build for the future than finish 6-10 and have none of that.

[DeLuca1967]

No it doesn't.  I'm not pleased with the way Losman has been playing but he has the physical tools.  Holcomb does not.  Losman has not played as well as I might like but he has improved over last year. There are plenty of QBs who teams have given up on only to turn it around, a fact you routinely ignore in your anti-Losman jihad.  I'm willing to wait until the end of the season.  If I thought changing QBs might make the difference between making the play-offs or not, I might think differently but this team is a long way from that because it is weak in so many places, particularly the offensive and defensive lines.

 

I'd rather go 2-14 with Losman, know that he doesn't have "IT", have a chance at a very high draft pick, and the ability to build for the future than finish 6-10 and have none of that.

820855[/snapback]

 

For every QB that has "turned around" there a dozen that haven't. There are far more QB's Like Todd Collins than there are Drew Brees. Your strongest point proves you are wrong.

[Scraps]

For every QB that has "turned around" there a dozen that haven't. There are far more QB's Like Todd Collins than there are Drew Brees. Your strongest point proves you are wrong.

820865[/snapback]

No because at least there is a chance of Losman improving. Kelly Holcomb is Kelly Holcomb. He's had 10 years in the league and amply demonstrated that he doesn't have the physical tools.

[Dibs]

How is this thing still going?