Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 You may have an insight into what TD preferred in a QB, but I doubt he thought athleticism was a substitute for 'pocket presence'. Players with limited play-making skills aren't projected to do much more than attain mediocre goals. No matter how many 3rd to 7th rounders become the exception to that rule, the rule has to stand. Unless it's determined that more NFL QBs come out of the 4th round (for instance) than the 1st, scouting departmets have to trust their 'high-ceiling' instincts. I agree the first round is the best place to find a QB. That's why the fact that most teams didn't see Losman as first round material really worries me. You had Buffalo interested in him, and Green Bay. But Mike Sherman would later be stripped of GM duties, so maybe he wasn't a much better judge of QB talent than TD. In terms of risk/reward, the Losman pick is very much like the Stewart pick. But as I said above, if you want a play-maker you draft a play-maker. Between Tulane and Buffalo, the kid hasn't had a chance to develope a pocket presence yet. You may be right in thinking he's not capable of it, but there's not enough of a body of work to support your opinion. If I was the Buffalo GM, I wouldn't have used a first round pick on an athletic QB who may or may not someday develop a pocket presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 C'mon Arm, you're smarter than that. 588003[/snapback] No, he's not. I thought he might be and tried to reason with him. But, all he can post about is how JP sucks. This is just another idiot on a crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 No, he's not. I thought he might be and tried to reason with him. But, all he can post about is how JP sucks. This is just another idiot on a crusade. 588103[/snapback] So anyone who fails to see how brilliant and right your ideas are is an idiot. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 How good was RJ's offensive line or his playcalling? Maybe we should build a real OL, then bring him back to see what he can do behind it. 587979[/snapback] RJ had plenty of time/oppurtunities to establish that he wasn't the answer. JP hasn't. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 No, he's not. I thought he might be and tried to reason with him. But, all he can post about is how JP sucks. This is just another idiot on a crusade. 588103[/snapback] Geez....and I thought it was just a varied opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Geez....and I thought it was just a varied opinion. 588119[/snapback] Opinions vary...understood. When you only have one opinion on one topic and you post threads only on that topic and you have to repeat that opinion in almost EVERY thread you post, then it's not an opinion, it's an obsession. And your posts become a crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Real Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 TD's track record with major quarterback decisions: - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. 587787[/snapback] Neil O'Donnell was the typical pocket passer that did nothing substantial to make him the 'franchise' qb. Bledsoe was a HUGE improvement over what we had the year or years previous. Overpayment to acquire him got a great response from fans and if you remember the first half of that year, we had fricking Joe Montana. Didn't turn out great in retrospect, but come on that's a chance the organization had to take. Where do you get your resources about J.P? Are you making this sh-- up as you go? As I recall very few people were down on Losman coming out of college. The big knocks were that he was cocky and that he was, well, cocky. Everyone liked his arm and his wheels. Kiper even said he had all the tools he was just raw. Basically though, I only care about what is happening now and not what decisions he made five years ago. Satan and his evil cronies are gone. I think it's time to move on to the new regime and see what they can do here in Buffalo. If JP is named starter next year and sucks a fat one we can then say he's a bust. For now though, give the fuggin kid a chance. The Real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Essentially, TD traded Peerless Price for Bledsoe and McGahee. I'd say he did pretty damn good on that deal. Bledsoe came in and made a 3-13 team with no identity 8-8 and a playoff contender for 3/4 of the season. Obviously it didn't pan out, but looking at the state of the franchise at the time, I don't understand how you could say it was a bad move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 You forgot: Brought in Kelly Holcomb 588031[/snapback] and how was that a questionable move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 The Bills should cut all players who don't turn all-pro after their 1st 8 games. Now....if ol Ralphie would have the cut cord on some of his head coaching gems after their 1st 8 games..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Opinions vary...understood. When you only have one opinion on one topic and you post threads only on that topic and you have to repeat that opinion in almost EVERY thread you post, then it's not an opinion, it's an obsession. And your posts become a crusade. 588125[/snapback] And this applies . . . how? I checked my most recent page of posts. I found the following: - Comments on how Losman will prove a bust. - Comments about why Jim Bates may have turned down the DC post. - Praise for Fairchild as offensive coordinator. - The suggestion that the Bills use all but one of their first-day picks in this year's draft on the OL. - Defense of Sam Wyche - Advice that the Bills focus on being good in 2007 not 2006 - Concern about Marv's ability to do well with X's and O's, and his ability to identify brilliant assistants. - A random remark about a long snapper - The comment that if men were trying to steal from Taylor, he would have been justified in displaying a weapon to discourage this. For you to portray me as obsessed with one particular topic shows you didn't do your homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Neil O'Donnell was the typical pocket passer that did nothing substantial to make him the 'franchise' qb. Bledsoe was a HUGE improvement over what we had the year or years previous. 588127[/snapback] I know you guys want to believe that the Bills will be a good team very soon, and a big part of that is thinking good things about Losman. But there's a difference between what we'd like to be true, and what is true. I refuse to do mental gymnastics to see the world with rose colored glasses. Replacing O'Donnell with Stewart wasn't a good idea. Neither was sending New England a first round pick for their aging backup QB. I know you guys would like to think highly of TD's judgement about QBs, because that would bode well for Losman. But the results aren't there to back that up. Stewart lasted maybe two or three years with the Steelers before being sent away, and the same could be said of Bledsoe in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Essentially, TD traded Peerless Price for Bledsoe and McGahee. I'd say he did pretty damn good on that deal. Wrong. TD acquired a first round pick for Peerless, and he used that pick on McGahee. Bledsoe had nothing to do with this deal. Peerless-for-McGahee was probably TD's best move as GM, but it has nothing to do with his ability to evaluate a QB. Bledsoe came in and made a 3-13 team with no identity 8-8 and a playoff contender for 3/4 of the season. Obviously it didn't pan out, but looking at the state of the franchise at the time, I don't understand how you could say it was a bad move. 588131[/snapback] Those first eight games of 2002 were a flash in the pan. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Opinions vary...understood. When you only have one opinion on one topic and you post threads only on that topic and you have to repeat that opinion in almost EVERY thread you post, then it's not an opinion, it's an obsession. And your posts become a crusade. 588125[/snapback] I don't think Arm is obsessed with Losman's inability to succeed. He's been very consistent in his opinions regarding the club's hasty decision to turn a season over to a young, inexperienced QB. My only disagreements with Arm are over his hasty judgements of Losman's talents. I haven't seen enough of JP to know what we've got. I don't think Arm, or anyone else has, either. Arm, you open yourself up to this kind of thing when you try to gauge Losman's talents by the success rate of TD's talent evaluations. Like I said before, I know where you were going here - if C follows B, and B follows A, then C follows A logic. It doesn't work that way with people and athletes. Pleasant surprises can follow disappointments. As a Bills fan, that's why you wake up each morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I don't think Arm is obsessed with Losman's inability to succeed. He's been very consistent in his opinions regarding the club's hasty decision to turn a season over to a young, inexperienced QB. My only disagreements with Arm are over his hasty judgements of Losman's talents. I haven't seen enough of JP to know what we've got. I don't think Arm, or anyone else has, either. Arm, you open yourself up to this kind of thing when you try to gauge Losman's talents by the success rate of TD's talent evaluations. Like I said before, I know where you were going here - if C follows B, and B follows A, then C follows A logic. It doesn't work that way with people and athletes. Pleasant surprises can follow disappointments. As a Bills fan, that's why you wake up each morning. 588174[/snapback] Point taken. I'm not saying that the Bills should cut Losman this off-season. But neither should they blind themselves to the fact we may have drafted the next Kordell. If I was the Buffalo GM, I'd take a long, hard look at Cutler. Assuming I liked what I saw, I'd draft him. Having done so, I'd give Losman most or all of the 2006 season to prove himself worthy of being a starter. Let's say the Bills didn't draft Cutler, hoping that Losman would turn into something. Let's say that Losman failed, which I believe is the most likely outcome. At the end of 2006, the Bills would be up a creek without a paddle. Good QBs are rare, and there's a good chance the Bills wouldn't be able to find one of Cutler's quality in 2007. Even if they did, he wouldn't be able to contribute very much until 2008 or 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Point taken. I'm not saying that the Bills should cut Losman this off-season. But neither should they blind themselves to the fact we may have drafted the next Kordell. If I was the Buffalo GM, I'd take a long, hard look at Cutler. Assuming I liked what I saw, I'd draft him. Having done so, I'd give Losman most or all of the 2006 season to prove himself worthy of being a starter. Let's say the Bills didn't draft Cutler, hoping that Losman would turn into something. Let's say that Losman failed, which I believe is the most likely outcome. At the end of 2006, the Bills would be up a creek without a paddle. Good QBs are rare, and there's a good chance the Bills wouldn't be able to find one of Cutler's quality in 2007. Even if they did, he wouldn't be able to contribute very much until 2008 or 2009. 588206[/snapback] I'd rather use the picks to get us some talent at LG and TE. Place some productive players next to Williams(RT); Villareal(RG); Teague/Preston©; Peters(LT) and I'll take my chances with either JP or Kelly. Cutler's got a quick release, but I think we have more pressing needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I'd rather use the picks to get us some talent at LG and TE. Place some productive players next to Williams(RT); Villareal(RG); Teague/Preston©; Peters(LT) and I'll take my chances with either JP or Kelly. Cutler's got a quick release, but I think we have more pressing needs. 588234[/snapback] I'm pessimistic about Peters because of his insanely low Wonderlic score. I'm not a big fan of Teague at C, because he isn't strong enough. But Preston might be the answer there. Villarrial is getting on in years, but LaDairus has said good things about Geisinger. LaDairus has a good head on his shoulders, and seems to know what he's talking about. So that leaves three OL positions to fill: LT, LG, RT. Preston would be C, and Villarrial/Geisinger would be RG. I'd use the first round pick on Cutler (assuming he's franchise quality) then the next three picks on LT, RT, and LG. I wouldn't be afraid to use a second day pick on an OL either. I admit this plan leaves something to be desired at TE, but finding the right QB is a bigger win than finding the right TE. I also admit this wouldn't do much for the defense, but that need could be addressed in 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 One thing I'd like to add about the TE position: it's hard for a guy like Euhus to prove himself a receiving threat when the playcalling always calls for him to stay back and block. Fix the offensive line, and you wouldn't have to always keep the TE back in to block. Guys like Euhus would have a chance to show one way or the other whether they could be true receiving threats in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 One thing I'd like to add about the TE position: it's hard for a guy like Euhus to prove himself a receiving threat when the playcalling always calls for him to stay back and block. Fix the offensive line, and you wouldn't have to always keep the TE back in to block. Guys like Euhus would have a chance to show one way or the other whether they could be true receiving threats in the NFL. 588286[/snapback] you have posted 15 times in this topic . trying to run up your post count ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 OK.... 1. Anyone who blames TD for "letting" O'Donnell go has a very faulty memory of what happened in the off-season between 1995 and 1996. O'Donnell was a free agent -- and the Jets offered him an insane contract, one that TD and the Steeelers had no business trying to match. The contract made him one of the highest paid QBs in the NFL, despite the fact that he was more of a caretaker QB than a stud. How did the decision work out? Well, the Jets went 1-15 the following season with O'Donnell (who was admittedly injured for much of the year). The folowwing year he lost his starting job when the Tuna took over as head coach. Meanwhile, the Steelers were back hosting the AFC Championship Game (which they lost to Denver) by 1997. 2. I won't repeat what many others have already said about the Bledsoe acquisition. Suffice to say that we were in a bad situation at QB. Jeff Blake was the top free agent on the market, and we lost out (looking back, thankfully) on David Carr and Joey Harrington in the draft. I know others will diagree, but even knowing what we know now, if I'm TD I still WOULD have made that trade for Bledsoe ten times out of ten. If nothing else, it brought instant credibility to our team -- and I seriously doubt if free agents like TKO would have signed here otherwise. 3. Again, the verdict is still out on JP. He has clearly shown flashes -- but he was also so mishandled by our coaching staff last year that it isn't funny. With everyone that had a stake in his doing well -- TD, MM, Clements, Wyche -- all gone, I wonder if the new reigme will give him the latitude to sink or swim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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