Talking about Losman's accuracy

[Ramius]

Must be the sight of him throwing the ball to a wide open CB in the endzone at Miami is etched in my mind's eye.  But woo hoo - his QB rating was 102.1! 

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see and if he can beat Holcomb out of the starting job come this summer.  All of this debate in January is moot.

585721[/snapback]

 

I see. So lets go with the wonderful vision of holcomb throwing for 2 yards on 4th and 7. Or his utter refusal to throw downfield. Or his throwing a dump off pass on 3rd down instead of trying for a first. But woohoo Holcomb completed 65% of his passes!

[Campy]

I didn't say you called JP is a bust.  However, by your response, you seem to be outing yourself.

585769[/snapback]

Yup, that's me. The guy who posted that it'd be a mistake to give up on JP after some people decided to fall all over Cutler with our 1st round pick this April or suggest we should dump him in favor of the Rams' Fitzpatrick.

[The Dean]

Yup, that's me.  The guy who posted that it'd be a mistake to give up on JP after some people decided to fall all over Cutler with our 1st round pick this April or suggest we should dump him in favor of the Rams' Fitzpatrick.

585782[/snapback]

 

 

Like I said, I'm not putting you in that category...I'm surprised you responded to that post, though. There are some die-in-the wool JP haters here.

 

I was intrigued, though, by you dismissing the idea that JP made some progress because he threw an interception in the end zone.

[Campy]

I see. So lets go with the wonderful vision of holcomb throwing for 2 yards on 4th and 7.  Or his utter refusal to throw downfield. Or his throwing a dump off pass on 3rd down instead of trying for a first. But woohoo Holcomb completed 65% of his passes! 

585771[/snapback]

Let them go to camp and compete. If JP wins the job, cool, he's our guy. But since camp hasn't started yet, all we can do is base our opinions on last season's performance. If you'd like to evaluate the performance of JP vs Holcomb (which you seem to want to do based upon the above post), pull up the stats of both QBs.

 

Take a look at the wins and losses.

Take a look at yards per attempt.

Take a look at 3rd down efficiency.

Take a look at offensive point production.

Take a look at offensive yardage production.

Take a look at completion percentage.

Take a look at QB rating.

Take a look at how many sacks each QB took.

 

Clearly, JP Losman was the second best QB on the Bills last year.

 

Does he have more upside than Holcomb? Sure, but I'm of the belief the best players at each position should play.

 

To what level JP can play, I don't know. I seem to be of the opinion that I think less of his potential than some (eg, you), but moreso than others. Big deal. I don't think he'll ever play to the level I'd like to see a 1st round pick play. That doesn't mean I'm rooting for him fail (quite the contrary), nor does it mean that I think he's a bust.

[Campy]

I was intrigued, though, by you dismissing the idea that JP made some progress because he threw an interception in the end zone.

585788[/snapback]

I made an erroneous statement by saying he peaked in week 1. Statistically speaking, his best game was in Miami.

 

Better?

[bartshan-83]

Does he have more upside than Holcomb?  Sure, but I'm of the belief the best players at each position should play.

585807[/snapback]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to ask you these questions:

 

Do you think Losman can reach the full extent of his upside while on the bench?

 

How long are you willing to let him sit there?

 

Do you think Kelly Holcomb can lead this team to a Super Bowl victory next year?

 

 

I am all for the best player playing, but if the best player has already peaked, and his peak isn't good enough....isn't that just an exercise in futility?

[The Dean]

I made an erroneous statement by saying he peaked in week 1.  Statistically speaking, his best game was in Miami. 

 

Better?

585814[/snapback]

 

 

Better. Now...can you go that one extra step and say, in general, he looked better toward the end of the year than he did in the beginning of the year?

 

If you give me that (and you may not, I understand), do you agree he handled being pulled from a game, and demoted for several games, well and that it didn't rattle him too much?

 

Finally...and i know I'm asking a lot here...didn't he show he could step into a game (without the benefit of a full week of getting the #1 qb's snaps in practice) and be effective in relief?

 

As far as I'm concerned that's great progress and shows encouraging signs for the future. No question asked there...just IMO.

[34-78-83]

Better.  Now...can you go that one extra step and say, in general, he looked better toward the end of the year than he did in the beginning of the year?

 

585838[/snapback]

 

That's all I've been trying to get him to see. Well that, and to put down the Stat Book and use his eyes and good sense for the game.

[1billsfan]

Let them go to camp and compete.  If JP wins the job, cool, he's our guy.  But since camp hasn't started yet, all we can do is base our opinions on last season's performance.  If you'd like to evaluate the performance of JP vs Holcomb (which you seem to want to do based upon the above post), pull up the stats of both QBs.

 

Take a look at the wins and losses.

Take a look at yards per attempt. 

Take a look at 3rd down efficiency. 

Take a look at offensive point production. 

Take a look at offensive yardage production. 

Take a look at completion percentage. 

Take a look at QB rating.

Take a look at how many sacks each QB took.

 

Clearly, JP Losman was the second best QB on the Bills last year. 

 

Does he have more upside than Holcomb?  Sure.  I'm of the belief the best players at each position should play. 

 

To what level JP can play, I don't know.  I seem to be of the opinion that I think less of his potential than some (eg, you), but moreso than others.  Big deal. I don't think he'll ever play to the level I'd like to see a 1st round pick play.  That doesn't mean I'm rooting for him fail (quite the contrary), nor does it mean that I think he's a bust.

585807[/snapback]

 

You want a stat? Kelly Holcomb: 4 interceptions vs NY Jets.

 

You're using this past season's stats to downgrade Losman's chances, however the 2005 stats means nothing in terms of who'll the Bill's starting QB in 2006. The 2006 Training camp will determine that.

 

The way I see it going is that Losman will be a man on a mission in his thrid year. After a full year and a half of fans and teamates questioning his ability he'll come in here bringing his A game and bringing all the bravado along the way. Holcomb becomes the undisputed backup after his beatdown during the competition.

[ezbills]

Alright already, ease up on Campy! He's not an irrational JP-hater, and he's said repeatedly that he wants him to succeed.

 

I'm confident that JP will pan out, but I'll be the first to admit that I thought he'd do better overall last season. I don't blame people for looking at his performance and wondering if we wasted a 1st-rounder because he did look awful at times. I guess I think that he can become a top-10 NFL starter if he's coached well and given a better chance to succeed. Maybe the new coordinator will do a better job at getting the ball into the playmakers' hands quickly (especially Evans) to let them do the work instead of having to pass-block to set up the deep bomb. It would also help if Campbell wasn't the only TE threat on the roster, which is where I think Everett can have a big impact this year.

 

Campy doesn't need me to defend him, but his posts are typically more articulate and well-thought out than a lot of other TBD-ers.

[Campy]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to ask you these questions:

 

Do you think Losman can reach the full extent of his upside while on the bench?

Sure, players get better with the more game time experience they get. But here's the deal, the practice field the place you develop basic competency, not the game field (Marv once said that). I know, all of the people who think JP walks on water will get all up in arms again, but frankly, save for a handful of games JP's play was incompetent.

 

How long are you willing to let him sit there?

As long as it takes until he's the best QB on the team. As for an exact time, that'd be up to him, not me.

 

Do you think Kelly Holcomb can lead this team to a Super Bowl victory next year?

Based upon last season, the Bills were more successful in virtually all offensive categories when he played. You can't get to the playoffs much less win a Super Bowl when you give up a critical part of the offense only to get inept play out of the second best QB on the roster IMO.

 

 

I am all for the best player playing, but if the best player has already peaked, and his peak isn't good enough....isn't that just an exercise in futility?

585824[/snapback]

I never said his "peak" wasn't good enough. IMO, a QB who can manage a game and get an occasional first down is all you need out of the position in this day and age. Or are you advocating just giving up?

 

Again, I want JP to be a stud QB. But if he can't beat out Holcomb in camp, he doesn't deserve to get the start. If he does, I'll be his biggest cheerleader - ask anyone who watches the game at our Backers club - I root and cheer for whoever's out there wearing our laundry. If our starter falters like JP did over the first quarter of the season last year, I'll want them to put in the other guy.

 

I want Bflo to win. Win the Super Bowl, win home field advantage, win their next game. I'm not keen on peeing away opportunites or peeing away teammate's careers so the second best player at his position on the team can "figure it out." Is that so wrong?

[Campy]

Campy doesn't need me to defend him, but his posts are typically more articulate and well-thought out than a lot of other TBD-ers.

585926[/snapback]

Thank you. As I promised, I just PayPal'd you the $20 for saying nice things about me.

[Campy]

You want a stat? Kelly Holcomb: 4 interceptions vs NY Jets.

It's not a very good idea to try and defend JP Losman by attacking Holcomb's stats. People could pull out things like a completion percentage below 50%, a 50.4 QB rating on 3rd downs, etc.

 

You're using this past season's stats to downgrade Losman's chances, however the 2005 stats means nothing in terms of who'll the Bill's starting QB in 2006. The 2006 Training camp will determine that.

For cryin' out loud brother, how many more times do I have to say "Let the best man in camp win the job" in this thread? How many more times do I have to say "All we have to go by is last year's performance?" I believe I've said each about 5 times prior to this post in this thread alone.

 

The way I see it going is that Losman will be a man on a mission in his thrid year. After a full year and a half of fans and teamates questioning his ability he'll come in here bringing his A game and bringing all the bravado along the way. Holcomb becomes the undisputed backup after his beatdown during the competition.

585855[/snapback]

Let's hope the way you see it is the way it will be.

[Ramius]

Campy doesn't need me to defend him, but his posts are typically more articulate and well-thought out than a lot of other TBD-ers.

585926[/snapback]

 

Sure. Take his side. I see how its going to be.

[bartshan-83]

Sure, players get better with the more game time experience they get....bunch of stuff....Is that so wrong?

585949[/snapback]

Just reduced your stuff to save space.

 

First off, I hope my questions didn't come off as argumentative. I was just trying to understand. I completely agree that we should have the best player out there, and at no time was I questioning your loyalty to the team or any of it's players.

 

I guess where we disagree is that I believe there are times when you should put in perhaps the 2nd best player in order to make him better. I agree that players should get better on the practice field, but I do not believe that they can reach their potential through that route alone. I think rookies and young players need to get into the game and experience real NFL action and that will make them better in ways practice cannot. Thats just my opinion.

 

I look at the situation with the Giants two years ago re: Eli vs. Warner. Kurt Warner was the better QB on the roster that year. He led them to a pretty good start, and while he stumbled, their playoff hopes were not completely crushed when Coughlin made the switch. They would have won more games with Warner, and Eli was not half the QB Kurt was at that point. But I think (and obviously there is no way to prove this) that Eli is a better QB now because he played then.