Dudes... I say let him walk: Clements

[CentralVaBills]

The Eagles had the cap space to sign Vincent to the same deal he got with the Bills, and they could have let the starter/nickel competition happen in training camp.

 

So yes, I believe it was possible for Vincent to remain with the Eagles, if the Eagles wanted him.  They obviously didn't believe they needed him, and, as a result, got toasted by a slot receiver in the SB.

412422[/snapback]

Why would you not need Troy Vincent as a nickel CB? Any idiot would have loved to have Troy Vincent at nickel CB. AGAIN.....there is no way Troy Vincent would have resigned to play nickel CB. And, on top of that....when Andy Reid decided that Vincent was expendable....which he was as a starter......there is no way he could give Vincent the money he would have commanded as a nickel CB.

 

Who the hell in the league couldn't have used Vincent as a nickel CB? All you would have had to do is probably pay him more money than your starter or maybe, in some team's cases, both starters at CB. And there's no way in hell that is going to happen.

[jad1]

Oh, and NO......you must understand philosphy....just as I said.....

 

I REPLACE CLEMENTS WITH A DE, not a CB.  I might draft a CB high or see who develops, or pick up mid grade salary CB's.  AS LONG AS A dominant DE is the replacement for Clements.  If that's the TD's plan, then hell no, you can't sit back there with the scruff we have as backups now.

 

My main philosophy on stopping the pass, is rushing the passer, not sitting back and trying to blanket WR's.

412416[/snapback]

 

For this current Bills team, which has proven it can generate a great pass rush without a dominant DE, I wouldn't make that tradeoff.

[eball]

he was a hair away from picking it off...but he could have easily batted it down and then it would have been game over...plain and simple he screwed up, and his folly ended up costing us the game...

412423[/snapback]

OK, enough of this "he cost us the game" bullcrap. it's an ignorant statement. yes, nate made a stupid play. yes, if he knocks it down the game is over. but where was the ball after smith caught it? on the freaking 40 yard line!!!! the bills' defense as a whole had numerous opportunities to win the game. the bills' offense had numerous opportunities to put the game out of reach before that.

 

stop the madness!

[CentralVaBills]

he was a hair away from picking it off...but he could have easily batted it down and then it would have been game over...plain and simple he screwed up, and his folly ended up costing us the game...

412423[/snapback]

Amen, but that doesn't mean anything. Knock down that pass, and we're in the playoffs. That's a pretty big mistake in the grand scheme of things, and everyone is just willing to let that stupidity slide.

 

I would like to think a player of that caliber would use better judgement. Now, did other players screw up? Hell yes. Did others screw up in a bigger spot than that one? No.

 

But it was OK, cuz the season was "early". That's such BS. Every game counts, and that play was the most costly of the season for us.

[CentralVaBills]

OK, enough of this "he cost us the game" bullcrap.  it's an ignorant statement.  yes, nate made a stupid play.  yes, if he knocks it down the game is over.  but where was the ball after smith caught it?  on the freaking 40 yard line!!!!  the bills' defense as a whole had numerous opportunities to win the game.  the bills' offense had numerous opportunities to put the game out of reach before that.

 

stop the madness! 

412435[/snapback]

Yeah, no doubt.....but if I remember correctly, wasn't it 4th and LONG? If it wasn't 4th, I know it was like 3rd and 17 or something wasn't it? Worst play of the year. Easily. He shouldn't get a pass for stupidity.

[jad1]

Why would you not need Troy Vincent as a nickel CB?  Any idiot would have loved to have Troy Vincent at nickel CB.  AGAIN.....there is no way Troy Vincent would have resigned to play nickel CB.  And, on top of that....when Andy Reid decided that Vincent was expendable....which he was as a starter......there is no way he could give Vincent the money he would have commanded as a nickel CB.

 

Who the hell in the league couldn't have used Vincent as a nickel CB?  All you would have had to do is probably pay him more money than your starter or maybe, in some team's cases, both starters at CB.  And there's no way in hell that is going to happen.

412428[/snapback]

 

Again, the Eagles COULD have paid Vincent what the Bills paid him, BECAUSE THEY HAD THE CAP SPACE.

 

Second, and again, there's nothing wrong with letting Vincent compete for the starting role in training camp. Whether he wins or loses, the secondary is stronger for it.

 

When Andy Reid decided that Vincent was expendable, he was wrong, and the SB proved that.

[CentralVaBills]

For this current Bills team, which has proven it can generate a great pass rush without a dominant DE, I wouldn't make that tradeoff.

412433[/snapback]

Valid point. But for this team.....we have to blitz every play to generate that pass rush. Which is also cool with me too, but I'd rather have a stud coming off of the edge with Schobel on the other side.

[BillsFanNC]

Yeah, no doubt.....but if I remember correctly, wasn't it 4th and LONG?  If it wasn't 4th, I know it was like 3rd and 17 or something wasn't it?  Worst play of the year.  Easily.  He shouldn't get a pass for stupidity.

412439[/snapback]

 

It was 4th and LOOONG. Like 20+ if memory serves.

[CentralVaBills]

Again, the Eagles COULD have paid Vincent what the Bills paid him, BECAUSE THEY HAD THE CAP SPACE.

 

Second, and again, there's nothing wrong with letting Vincent compete for the starting role in training camp.  Whether he wins or loses, the secondary is stronger for it. 

 

When Andy Reid decided that Vincent was expendable, he was wrong, and the SB proved that.

412441[/snapback]

It doens't matter if they had cap space. THEY DIDN'T CONSIDER HIM A STARTING CB ANY LONGER. Just because you have cap space doesn't mean you overpay a player that has run his course with your team. And on top of that....they considered their other two CB's BETTER. So, what do you do? Go with better CB's (according to Andy Reid) as starters, and then pay Troy Vincent....a nickel CB more money? What the hell kind of sense does that make? On top of that.....how well do you think the two starters would take to that?

 

LOL, and the Eagles didn't lose the SB because Troy Vincent was a Bill. Gimmie a break. I think Deion Sanders was the only difference maker EVER in shutting down an opposing teams passing attack. There were great CB's in the NFL that you could count on week in and week out, but nobody in the league had an impact on the passing that Deion did ( and I hate him).

 

You're making TV out to be Deion. Hell, I can remember when all you saw of TV was the back of his numbers when the Bills of the 90's torched him over and over.

[CentralVaBills]

It was 4th and LOOONG. Like 20+ if memory serves.

412447[/snapback]

Yes, I thought so......just a ridiculous, stupid play, by, in his own words...."The Best CB in the league". Yeah OK Nate, you keep telling yourself that, apparently some people believe you.

 

WORST and MOST COSTLY play of the year. EASILY. Doesn't mean I don't think he is a damn good corner, but he's not the best, and no where near worth the best money. No CB is right now.

 

4th and Long, at home, shut down CB, vs 125 year old Jimmy Smith with the game on the line......and WE LOSE the battle on a jump ball.

[BillsFanNC]

Yes, I thought so......just a ridiculous, stupid play, by, in his own words...."The Best CB in the league".  Yeah OK Nate, you keep telling yourself that, apparently some people believe you.

 

WORST and MOST COSTLY play of the year.  EASILY.  Doesn't mean I don't think he is a damn good corner, but he's not the best, and no where near worth the best money.  No CB is right now.

 

4th and Long, at home, shut down CB, vs 125 year old Jimmy Smith with the game on the line......and WE LOSE the battle on a jump ball.

412453[/snapback]

 

Actually my memory didn't serve me. It was 4th and 14. But the completion was for 45 yards!! They went from their 34 to our 21. Terrible play.

 

4-14-JAC34 (1:18) (Shotgun) B.Leftwich pass to J.Smith to BUF 21 for 45 yards (N.Clements). Caught at BUF 22, left side.

[CentralVaBills]

Actually my memory didn't serve me. It was 4th and 14.  But the completion was for 45 yards!! They went from their 34 to our 21. Terrible play. 

 

4-14-JAC34 (1:18) (Shotgun) B.Leftwich pass to J.Smith to BUF 21 for 45 yards (N.Clements). Caught at BUF 22, left side.

412459[/snapback]

Anyone who knows how to read a boxscore knows of how bad a play that is.

[jad1]

It doens't matter if they had cap space.  THEY DIDN'T CONSIDER HIM A STARTING CB ANY LONGER.  Just because you have cap space doesn't mean you overpay a player that has run his course with your team.  And on top of that....they considered their other two CB's BETTER.  So, what do you do?  Go with better CB's (according to Andy Reid) as starters, and then pay Troy Vincent....a nickel CB more money?  What the hell kind of sense does that make?  On top of that.....how well do you think the two starters would take to that? 

 

LOL, and the Eagles didn't lose the SB because Troy Vincent was a Bill.  Gimmie a break.  I think Deion Sanders was the only difference maker EVER in shutting down an opposing teams passing attack.  There were great CB's in the NFL that you could count on week in and week out, but nobody in the league had an impact on the passing that Deion did ( and I hate him).

 

You're making TV out to be Deion.  Hell, I can remember when all you saw of TV was the back of his numbers when the Bills of the 90's torched him over and over.

412449[/snapback]

 

Be serious, I'm not making Vincent out to be Deion. I'm pointing out the fact a slot receiver shredded the Eagles defense in the SB and won the MVP trophy.

 

I'm also pointing out that Andy Reid, whose team was far under the salary cap, let both his starting CBs walk from the year before.

 

I don't know who would have started or who would have been the nickle if Reid had kept either Vincent or Taylor, but his secondary, as a unit, would have been a hell of a lot stronger than it was in the SB.

 

Holding onto Vincent or Taylor, even if they were overpriced, would have strengthened a weakness that Belichick, Weiss, and Brady exploited, while winning the game.

 

And considering that almost the same thing happened the previous year, when the Eagles let Trotter walk and got run over by the Panthers in the NFC Championship game, it looks like the Eagles money decisions have hurt their chances on the field.

[LabattBlue]

OK, enough of this "he cost us the game" bullcrap.  it's an ignorant statement.  yes, nate made a stupid play.  yes, if he knocks it down the game is over.  but where was the ball after smith caught it?  on the freaking 40 yard line!!!!  the bills' defense as a whole had numerous opportunities to win the game.  the bills' offense had numerous opportunities to put the game out of reach before that.

 

stop the madness! 

412435[/snapback]

 

4-14-JAC34 (1:18) (Shotgun) B.Leftwich pass to J.Smith to BUF 21 for 45 yards (N.Clements). Caught at BUF 22, left side.

 

[CentralVaBills]

Be serious, I'm not making Vincent out to be Deion.  I'm pointing out the fact a slot receiver shredded the Eagles defense in the SB and won the MVP trophy.

 

I'm also pointing out that Andy Reid, whose team was far under the salary cap, let both his starting CBs walk from the year before.

 

I don't know who would have started or who would have been the nickle if Reid had kept either Vincent or Taylor, but his secondary, as a unit, would have been a hell of a lot stronger than it was in the SB.

 

Holding onto Vincent or Taylor, even if they were overpriced, would have strengthened a weakness that Belichick, Weiss, and Brady exploited, while winning the game.

 

And considering that almost the same thing happened the previous year, when the Eagles let Trotter walk and got run over by the Panthers in the NFC Championship game, it looks like the Eagles money decisions have hurt their chances on the field.

412473[/snapback]

Makes sense. But I'll put it this way.....I would have given the Eagles Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent, AND the two CB's they had as starters and they wouldn't have beaten the Pats. TV and BT aren't that good anymore. Hell, Troy Brown was covering people last year. Should show you that CB's can be found anywhere. Not that there aren't good or great CB's....but they just don't make a difference enough to warrant huge money.

 

You can't name one that is. Start with Champ Bailey and work backward. Can't name one. MAYBE Ty Law.....maybe. But I'd put that more on Bill Belicheck than Ty Law. Especially when Troy Brown was picking off passes last year.

[CentralVaBills]

4-14-JAC34 (1:18) (Shotgun) B.Leftwich pass to J.Smith to BUF 21 for 45 yards (N.Clements). Caught at BUF 22, left side.

 

412481[/snapback]

Amazing, what good record keeping proves. And it was man vs. man.....and grandfather time, Jimmy Smith whipped our "Shut Down CB's" ass. And all he had to do was KNOCK IT DOWN.

[jarthur31]

He's a very good cb... no doubt about it... but why would you want to pay the guy top cb money when he's not a lock down cb?  With McGahee, Evan, Losman... and still the need for a top flight tackle... and maybe a RT in a couple of years, I think Greer/King or drafting one next year should suffice.  With McGee and Parrish and Fast Freddie... the Bills really don't need Clements return skills.

 

Sorry... I just don't see Clements as the most valuable player on the team... and if they re-sign him, he will be the highest paid player on the team... probably around $8 mil.  I'd rather see Teflon slap the transition tag on him and get a #1 for him.  The Bills would have considerable flexiblity in next year's draft with an extra #1 and an extra #3.  With that extra #1 pick they couls also set themselves up for the following draft.

412116[/snapback]

 

Ok, then who is the shutdown corner on this roster as it stands?

 

Glad you just opened your eyes to this little fact.

 

I say he deserves some money coming to him. We haven't had a corner like him since Odomes who can pick the ball.

[CentralVaBills]

Ok, then who is the shutdown corner on this roster as it stands?   

 

Glad you just opened your eyes to this little fact. 

 

I say he deserves some money coming to him.  We haven't had a corner like him since Odomes who can pick the ball.

412509[/snapback]

Ummmmmmmm, maybe we don't have one. Maybe no team has one. Ask Denver how much throwing all that money at Champ Bailey worked out. After all, he was their "shut down corner" every time they played Indy.

[socalfan]

Even if Nate were the best corner in the last 100 years, I wouldn't sign him to a contract that would make him the highest paid corner in the league. I'd let him go, or I would trade him this year if possible to a team that would accomodate him.

 

I just don't see any value in having the highest paid position on your team. To build a good team you want to get as many good players as you can. And you can't do that when you assign 10-20% of your cap to one person.

[jad1]

Makes sense.  But I'll put it this way.....I would have given the Eagles Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent, AND the two CB's they had as starters and they wouldn't have beaten the Pats.  TV and BT aren't that good anymore.  Hell, Troy Brown was covering people last year.  Should show you that CB's can be found anywhere.  Not that there aren't good or great CB's....but they just don't make a difference enough to warrant huge money. 

 

You can't name one that is.  Start with Champ Bailey and work backward.  Can't name one.  MAYBE Ty Law.....maybe.  But I'd put that more on Bill Belicheck than Ty Law.  Especially when Troy Brown was picking off passes last year.

412490[/snapback]

 

I can do the same with pass rushing DEs.

 

The Eagles had Kearse on the field and still got shredded in the SB. Peppers missed the playoffs. How do you rank Freeny's Colts defense? Taylor ended up 4-12 on the Dolphins. Who was the dominant pass rusher for the Pats? Seymour? McGinest? Not really in a league with White or Smith.