Scotland Yard fouled up

[Dr. K]

racial profiling at work:

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/s...1550565,00.html

 

 

"It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:

 

· was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;

 

· was unaware he was being followed;

 

· was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;

 

· never ran from the police;

 

· and did not jump the ticket barrier.

 

But the revelation that will prove most uncomfortable for Scotland Yard was that the 27-year-old electrician had already been restrained by a surveillance officer before being shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder."

[erynthered]

racial profiling at work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/s...1550565,00.html

"It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:

 

· was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;

 

· was unaware he was being followed;

 

· was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;

 

· never ran from the police;

 

· and did not jump the ticket barrier.

 

But the revelation that will prove most uncomfortable for Scotland Yard was that the 27-year-old electrician had already been restrained by a surveillance officer before being shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder."

410400[/snapback]

 

Tragic, if all this is indeed true, whats your point? Where's the perfection in anything Doc?

[Dr. K]

Tragic, if all this is indeed true, whats your point? Where's the perfection in anything Doc?

410408[/snapback]

 

My point is the dangers of racial profiling. When the first reports of this killing came out, lots of right wing heroes in the U.S. were saying we needed to take a page from the Brits' book and follow suit. "Put seven slugs into the head of these bastards."

 

This Brazilian is dead because he had dark skin and he lived in the same building that some suspect lived in. That's it--and that was enough for his to be shot in the head while his hands were pinned behind his back, and then lied about after the fact.

[erynthered]

My point is the dangers of racial profiling.  When the first reports of this killing came out, lots of right wing heroes in the U.S. were saying we needed to take a page from the Brits' book and follow suit.  "Put seven slugs into the head of these bastards."

 

This Brazilian is dead because he had dark skin and he lived in the same building that some suspect lived in.  That's it--and that was enough for his to be shot in the head while his hands were pinned behind his back, and then lied about after the fact.

410420[/snapback]

 

 

Is the spread of communism different than the spread of terrorism? And where would you go to root out Terrorism? Is there a specific place that you would start?

 

I'd like to think that you do believe there is a terrorism problem, right? Please tell me.

[Britbillsfan]

It certainly appears that the Yard blew this big time, and the reports coming out of the enquiry are indicative of a whole slew of mistakes on their part. I will be waiting to see what the report says when it is completed before I make any personal conclusions at his tragic little episode.

 

As far as the Met lying a lot of the 'facts' earlier reported were not sourced from the police but from other eye witnesses interviewed by the media. Eye witness accounts can vary enormously at the same incident describing the same thing and you need a whole load to accurately try to build up a picture of what really happened at an incident, and even then corroborating info is needed as well. The initial police reports were not as free with 'facts' as the press has reported, they confirmed the shooting, how often the victim was shot, why he was followed, and a few other tidbits, most of which appear still to be accurate.

 

As for racial profiling. This death is nothing to do with that. It appears to do with a breakdown in comms and a series of very unfortunate mistakes and miscommunications (starting with that the guy came out of the building in question (where arrests were made later, BTW) and the police failed to realise, at that moment, that there was more than one residence in that portion of the property. The police officers who fired the shots undoubtedly thought that the guy was a real threat and took the action they did despite knowing they might be rushing to their own death.

 

Racial profiling is not even an issue over here regarding this incident. What people are questioning is the so-called shoot to kill policy regarding terrorists. Of course if you do have a suicide bomber and do not shoot to kill and he blows up a whole crowd of people when the officer did not fire then the criticism will go the other way. No win situation.

 

It is such a wonderful world that these terrorists are creating for us all.

[philburger1]

racial profiling at work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/s...1550565,00.html

"It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:

 

· was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;

 

· was unaware he was being followed;

 

· was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;

 

· never ran from the police;

 

· and did not jump the ticket barrier.

 

But the revelation that will prove most uncomfortable for Scotland Yard was that the 27-year-old electrician had already been restrained by a surveillance officer before being shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder."

410400[/snapback]

 

 

Question: Would there have been mass protests in Brazil against terrorism if that young man had died with others a couple weeks ago when the bombs went off on the subway. Just wondering....

[VABills]

Yeah let' not do racial profiling.

 

Let's just shoot everyone with tan skin and get it over with.

[stuckincincy]

Nobody complains when folks of Italian extraction are targeted when there is a push to capture Mafia criminals. I guess it's ok if the profile target is Caucasian.

[chicot]

Question: Would there have been mass protests in Brazil against terrorism if that young man had died with others a couple weeks ago when the bombs went off on the subway. Just wondering....

411134[/snapback]

 

It's completely different. Terrorists are expected to kill people, that is why they are terrorists. There's not much point protesting because the terrorists aren't likely to pay much attention. The police, however, are expected to protect the public. They are not expected to murder innocents.

[Alaska Darin]

It's completely different. Terrorists are expected to kill people, that is why they are terrorists. There's not much point protesting because the terrorists aren't likely to pay much attention. The police, however, are expected to protect the public. They are not expected to murder innocents.

411680[/snapback]

They also aren't perfect and work in a culture of fear continually perpetuated by the hysteria seen in this thread. One man gets killed and everyone gets up in arms - which will eventually lead to even more mistakes in the other direction and ensure that criminals get an even bigger leg up in the future.

 

It is what it is.

[chicot]

They also aren't perfect and work in a culture of fear continually perpetuated by the hysteria seen in this thread.  One man gets killed and everyone gets up in arms - which will eventually lead to even more mistakes in the other direction and ensure that criminals get an even bigger leg up in the future.

 

It is what it is.

411912[/snapback]

 

No, they aren't perfect. No one is. I don't have a problem with a shoot-to-kill policy in principle but it has to be based on good intelligence. It's pretty clear that the police didn't have much of a clue even about who Mr de Menezes was, let alone anything else. Not identified because the officer who needed to do so was taking a leak?! If these reports are true, the level of incompetence was staggering. Before taking the drastic measure of pinning someone to the ground and shooting him eight times in the head, the police have to have more to go on than the fact that he was seen coming out of the same block of flats as a suspect.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

No, they aren't perfect. No one is. I don't have a problem with a shoot-to-kill policy in principle but it has to be based on good intelligence. It's pretty clear that the police didn't have much of a clue even about who Mr de Menezes was, let alone anything else. Not identified because the officer who needed to do so was taking a leak?! If these reports are true, the level of incompetence was staggering. Before taking the drastic measure of pinning someone to the ground and shooting him eight times in the head, the police have to have more to go on than the fact that he was seen coming out of the same block of flats as a suspect.

411952[/snapback]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he stop when He was told to? I remember reading (I think) that he kept running toward the subway. Am I completely off-base?

[chicot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he stop when He was told to? I remember reading (I think) that he kept running toward the subway. Am I completely off-base?

411987[/snapback]

 

With the usual caveat of "if the reports are to be believed", he only ran to board the train and when the police identified themselves (on the train), he walked towards them whereupon one of them grabbed him, pinned his arms behind his back and wrestled him to the ground. Another fellow then came up and pumped 8 or so shots into him. I'll try and dig up a link when I've got a minute (I'm at work ).

[chicot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he stop when He was told to? I remember reading (I think) that he kept running toward the subway. Am I completely off-base?

411987[/snapback]

 

Actually Dr K's link does the job:

 

The documents reveal that a member of the surveillance team, who sat nearby, grabbed Mr de Menezes before he was shot: "I heard shouting which included the word 'police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.

 

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 [firearms squad] officers ... I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."

[Mickey]

Question: Would there have been mass protests in Brazil against terrorism if that young man had died with others a couple weeks ago when the bombs went off on the subway. Just wondering....

411134[/snapback]

Terrorists aren't effected by protests, governments are. One of the many reasons why we prefer governments to terrorists.

[Mickey]

Nobody complains when folks of Italian extraction are targeted when there is a push to capture Mafia criminals. I guess it's ok if the profile target is Caucasian.

411167[/snapback]

Being 3/4's Sicilian myself, I can't say I have run across this problem much. Then again, I haven't pulled that horse head in the bed trick in a long time.

[Mickey]

They also aren't perfect and work in a culture of fear continually perpetuated by the hysteria seen in this thread.  One man gets killed and everyone gets up in arms - which will eventually lead to even more mistakes in the other direction and ensure that criminals get an even bigger leg up in the future.

 

It is what it is.

411912[/snapback]

I don't think we should over react nor sweep it under the rug with a shrug. All you can do is look at what happened and try to learn from it.

[Mickey]

Yeah let' not do racial profiling. 

 

Let's just shoot everyone with tan skin and get it over with.

411150[/snapback]

My problem with profiling is that is just doesn't work. Look for men, they'll send women. Look for people with middle eastern features, they'll dye their hair blonde. While you're looking for a black haired male, a blonde woman walks right by you with enough explosives in her purse to blow up the place. Profiling can actually work against you.

[Ghost of BiB]

My problem with profiling is that is just doesn't work.  Look for men, they'll send women.  Look for people with middle eastern features, they'll dye their hair blonde.  While you're looking for a black haired male, a blonde woman walks right by you with enough explosives in her purse to blow up the place.  Profiling can actually work against you.

412558[/snapback]

 

Actually...

 

No.

 

It's only one of many tools, and a useful one.

[Chilly]

Actually...

 

No.

 

It's only one of many tools, and a useful one.

412605[/snapback]

 

I'd like to see a rebuttle to his point rather then just "no"

[philburger1]

It's completely different. Terrorists are expected to kill people, that is why they are terrorists. There's not much point protesting because the terrorists aren't likely to pay much attention. The police, however, are expected to protect the public. They are not expected to murder innocents.

411680[/snapback]

 

Gee, if somebody killed a member of my family on purpose because they hated his religion or ethnic background (terrorists), it would make me a lot madder than somebody doing by accident while trying to protect people and due their job (the police),..

 

Both would suck, no doubt, but killing out of hate would make it a lot worse.....

[Mickey]

Actually...

 

No.

 

It's only one of many tools, and a useful one.

412605[/snapback]

I don't know, it doesn't seem to have proven very useful in this case, what with an innocent man getting shot seven or eight times and all. Maybe it can be both useful and work against you depending on whether it is done right.

[Mickey]

Gee, if somebody killed a member of my family on purpose because they hated his religion or ethnic background (terrorists), it would make me a lot madder than somebody doing by accident while trying to protect people and due their job (the police),..

 

Both would suck, no doubt, but killing out of hate would make it a lot worse.....

412780[/snapback]

There is an old saying, "I never heard a corpse ask how it got so cold."

[erynthered]

I don't know, it doesn't seem to have proven very useful in this case, what with an innocent man getting shot seven or eight times and all.  Maybe it can be both useful and work against you depending on whether it is done right.

412784[/snapback]

 

 

While tragic, in and of it self. There's alwys a lesson to be learned, right? Please tell me what that might be, and dont be narrow minded Mick? If you're able to look at all sides of the issue. You've had a history of having some difficulty looking at the past. 3Q's Silly Italian.

[philburger1]

Terrorists aren't effected by protests, governments are.  One of the many reasons why we prefer governments to terrorists.

412535[/snapback]

 

Oh, so that explains the lack of protests in the muslim world against terrorism. thanks.

 

“Maybe the French did it because they didn’t get the 2012 Olympics and England did,” said Aftab Ahmad, 27, a waiter who attended the Central Mosque prayer service. “Why do they always say Muslims do attacks like this?"

[Mickey]

Oh, so that explains the lack of protests in the muslim world against terrorism. thanks.

 

“Maybe the French did it because they didn’t get the 2012 Olympics and England did,” said Aftab Ahmad, 27, a waiter who attended the Central Mosque prayer service. “Why do they always say Muslims do attacks like this?"

412790[/snapback]

Different subject, you were talking specifically about whether people in Brazil protesting the shooting of an innocent Brazilian by the British police would be protesting if the man was killed by terrorists. If you want to switch gears and talk about the response of all muslims to suicide terrorism, fine.

 

It would help to narrow it down, I don't think it is fair to just talk about all muslims. I imagine that Jordanian muslims might have different issues than muslims in Dallas Texas. By and large, I would certainly agree that, on the whole, the response to this by muslims has ranged from shameful silence to tacit support. There are a lot of things they should be doing but I doubt protests would accomplish anything. Leading clerics announcing that suicide terrorists are going to hell would be a good start.

[Mickey]

While tragic, in and of it self. There's alwys a lesson to be learned, right? Please tell me what that might be, and dont be narrow minded Mick? If you're able to look at all sides of the issue. You've had a history of having some difficulty looking at the past. 3Q's  Silly Italian. 

412787[/snapback]

I think it would be better to let more facts dribble in before waxing eloquent on what could have been done better. I have confidence that the British will learn what lessons there are to be learned from the event.

 

Remember that the fact that we are starting out with is an innocent man being killed by the police. There is no dispute there at all. I think the logical response to such a thing is to examine the event to see what went wrong and hopefully, improve tactics to prevent it happening in the future. I don't understand the knee jerk defense of this or dismissive attitude displayed by some at the mere mention that this was a really bad mistake. Really bad.

[Britbillsfan]

  Leading clerics announcing that suicide terrorists are going to hell would be a good start.

412877[/snapback]

I have seen at least one prominent Iraqi cleric say this recently, of course being a Shia the Sunni AQ-type terrorists would consider him to be a legitimate target.

[Mickey]

I have seen at least one prominent Iraqi cleric say this recently, of course being a Shia the Sunni AQ-type terrorists would consider him to be a legitimate target.

413046[/snapback]

Muslim on muslim violence. You'd think there would be more than one leading cleric speaking up.

[Britbillsfan]

Muslim on muslim violence.  You'd think there would be more than one leading cleric speaking up.

413704[/snapback]

Well there are more, some reported here in the UK press, others are almost certainly unreported. The Shias, especially, should not be too hot about suicide bombers since they are the current main target for these swine. Besides when was th elasttime you went to a mosque to hear a sermon? We hear about the pro-terrorist scum because their views are so shocking and evil and hence 'newsworthy'. Condemnation is less worthy of news coverage because it is judged to be expected of responsible individuals.

 

There is a sense of denial in the Islamic community, IMO, brought about by total disbelief in whatever the 'West' says (ie: If the west says there are islamic terrorists blowing up innocents then it CAN'T be true).

[Bill from NYC]

It's completely different. Terrorists are expected to kill people, that is why they are terrorists. There's not much point protesting because the terrorists aren't likely to pay much attention. The police, however, are expected to protect the public. They are not expected to murder innocents.

411680[/snapback]

 

Yeah, it's a serious matter all right.

If I was in charge of that police department, I think that I would resolve the situation by asking the officers involved to try to be a little bit more careful the next time they are trying to defend their nation from animalistic terrorists.....a verbal counselling if you will.

Next, I would give them some paid leave so they could settle down just a bit.

 

You've heard the old saying right?

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

[chicot]

Yeah, it's a serious matter all right.

If I was in charge of that poloice department, I think that I would resolve the situation by asking the officers involved to try to be a little bit more careful the next time they are trying to defend their nation from animalistic terrorists.....a verbal counselling if you will.

Next, I would give them some paid leave so they could settle down just a bit.

 

You've heard the old saying right?

Drastic times call for drastic measures. 

414045[/snapback]

 

I think they must have been taking advice from you since the officers involved in the shooting are now on holiday I'm not sure that the ones that fired the shots are actually to blame at all. It may well have been those higher up the chain of command. As I said, I don't have a problem with a shoot-to-kill policy but they have to have a bit more to go on than they had in this case. Wasn't there a reasonable similar incident in New York recently when a Sikh family was wrestled to the ground? I remember reading that they received a very public apology and stated that there were no hard feelings towards the police.