slothrop Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Talk about stupidity!!!! No need to explain further. Stupid Congressman about Blowing up Mecca A Colorado congressman told a radio show host that the U.S. could "take out" Islamic holy sites if Muslim fundamentalist terrorists attacked the country with nuclear weapons. Rep. Tom Tancredo made his remarks Friday on WFLA-AM in Orlando, Florida. His spokesman stressed he was only speaking hypothetically. Talk show host Pat Campbell asked the Littleton Republican how the country should respond if terrorists struck several U.S. cities with nuclear weapons. "Well, what if you said something like -- if this happens in the United States, and we determine that it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their holy sites," Tancredo answered. "You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said. "Yeah," Tancredo responded. The congressman later said he was "just throwing out some ideas" and that an "ultimate threat" might have to be met with an "ultimate response." Spokesman Will Adams said Sunday the four-term congressman doesn't support threatening holy Islamic sites but that Tancredo was grappling with the hypothetical situation of a terrorist strike deadlier than the September 11, 2001, attacks. "We have an enemy with no uniform, no state, who looks like you and me and only emerges right before an attack. How do we go after someone like that?" Adams said. "What is near and dear to them? They're willing to sacrifice everything in this world for the next one. What is the pressure point that would deter them from their murderous impulses?" he said. Tancredo is known in the House for his tough stand on immigration. Mohammad Noorzai, coordinator of the Colorado Muslim Council and a native of Afghanistan, said Tancredo's remarks were radical and unrepresentative but that people in Tancredo's position need to watch their words when it comes to sacred religious sites and texts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Talk about stupidity!!!! No need to explain further. Stupid Congressman about Blowing up Mecca 384133[/snapback] It's all just gab. I find it highly unlikely that the US would ever do such a thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Somehow, I think the Saudis might frown on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 It's all just gab. I find it highly unlikely that the US would ever do such a thing.... 384147[/snapback] The issue was the fact that this moron said it. That statement is likely in every Islamic media outlet and will be used by extremists to justify their hate. If we are ever going to help the moderates in the middle east win power we have to stop morons like this Congressman. I think his statement did more harm than we will ever know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 The issue was the fact that this moron said it. That statement is likely in every Islamic media outlet and will be used by extremists to justify their hate. If we are ever going to help the moderates in the middle east win power we have to stop morons like this Congressman. I think his statement did more harm than we will ever know. 384165[/snapback] Maybe so. But the principle of getting the word out that if they try to destroy what WE cherish what THEY cherish will go down in flames as well worked pretty good for a long long time. Its a technique that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philburger1 Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Talk about stupidity!!!! No need to explain further. Stupid Congressman about Blowing up Mecca 384133[/snapback] Give me a break with your outrage. What he was saying was "what could we threaten the Islamo-facists with that we scare them enough to not commit an act of nuclear terrorism on US soil". With the USSR, the threat was 'mutually assured destruction", since both the Russians and the Americans were horrified by the thought of all their people getting killed. But the Jihad Johnies have no fear of death, and have no problem of using their own women and children as shields. So you have to threaten them with something they value. Which isn't human life. So if saying, "we will nuke Mecca if you explode a nuclear bomb on US soil", prevents it from happening, then so be it. If want to get upset about some political leaders comments, try these on for size: "Oh, Allah, destroy America and its supporters and collaborators. Oh Allah, destroy Britain and its supporters and collaborators." – Ikrime Sabri, mufti of Jerusalem, highest-ranking Islamic figure in the Palestinian Authority, PA Radio, just 18 days before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks" "We [Muslims] have ruled the world and a day will come, by Allah, and we shall rule the world [again]. The day will come and we shall rule America. The day will come and we shall rule Britain." – Ibrahim Mudayris, PA TV, May 13, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Isn't Mecca pretty well a "spot on the ground"? Seems they could re-build it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Isn't Mecca pretty well a "spot on the ground"? Seems they could re-build it. 384177[/snapback] I thought it had a great, big 1400-year old Mosque there. Doesn't it? Regardless...think of the outrage if the Wailing Wall or St. Peters was nuked. Hell, think of the WTC. "Seems they could rebuild it" doesn't begin to cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Give me a break with your outrage. What he was saying was "what could we threaten the Islamo-facists with that we scare them enough to not commit an act of nuclear terrorism on US soil". With the USSR, the threat was 'mutually assured destruction", since both the Russians and the Americans were horrified by the thought of all their people getting killed. But the Jihad Johnies have no fear of death, and have no problem of using their own women and children as shields. So you have to threaten them with something they value. Which isn't human life. So if saying, "we will nuke Mecca if you explode a nuclear bomb on US soil", prevents it from happening, then so be it. If want to get upset about some political leaders comments, try these on for size: "Oh, Allah, destroy America and its supporters and collaborators. Oh Allah, destroy Britain and its supporters and collaborators." – Ikrime Sabri, mufti of Jerusalem, highest-ranking Islamic figure in the Palestinian Authority, PA Radio, just 18 days before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks" "We [Muslims] have ruled the world and a day will come, by Allah, and we shall rule the world [again]. The day will come and we shall rule America. The day will come and we shall rule Britain." – Ibrahim Mudayris, PA TV, May 13, 2005 384174[/snapback] As I said, it looks like the Congressman got advice from some of the mental-giants around here. The problem with your analysis is that you only account for "hard-power" and completely neglect the more important facet of international relations, "soft-power." The stupid statement by the Congressman affects the "soft-power" analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 As I said, it looks like the Congressman got advice from some of the mental-giants around here. The problem with your analysis is that you only account for "hard-power" and completely neglect the more important facet of international relations, "soft-power." The stupid statement by the Congressman affects the "soft-power" analysis. 384195[/snapback] You don't see me disagreeing. Any current National Strategy document includes the phrase "All elements of national power", or something close to it. That includes (primarily) political, military, diplomatic and economic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Isn't Mecca pretty well a "spot on the ground"? Seems they could re-build it. 384177[/snapback] Wouldn't you have to wait until Mecca stopped glowing in the dark before you started rebuilding? As for the Congressman, he's just stating what a lot of people already believe. Stating it in such a public forum is the stupid thing, not what was said. And if Al-Q or whoever pulled a multi-nuke bombing of NYC, LA, and another city of your choice, I'd have no problem whatsoever with saying goodbye to Mecca... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Wouldn't you have to wait until Mecca stopped glowing in the dark before you started rebuilding? As for the Congressman, he's just stating what a lot of people already believe. Stating it in such a public forum is the stupid thing, not what was said. And if Al-Q or whoever pulled a multi-nuke bombing of NYC, LA, and another city of your choice, I'd have no problem whatsoever with saying goodbye to Mecca... 384216[/snapback] Contrary to the movies, they don't glow all that long. Off the top of my head, you can apply the 7/10's rule. For every 7 periods of time, the residual radiation decreases by a factor of 10. Some neutron induced activity in the vicinity of ground zero will last longer, but still not that much of an issue. One would use an airburst, anyway. Go for the static overpressure blast effects, and better thermal. Wouldn't be that much residual to start out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Should I even bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Should I even bother? 384263[/snapback] I'm guessing your response is something along the lines of: "Turn the whole fuggin' Middle East into a parking lot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Should I even bother? 384263[/snapback] Please don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Please don't. 384266[/snapback] That's what I figured. So I'll break out the tired, trite, Politically Correct resopnse: "We should, at all times, seek to embrace and respect Islam as a great world religion. The holy sites of Mecca and Medina are a part of said tradition. Therefore, they deserve all our respect. Also, we should see that America and its imperialist lapdogs, the Israelis, have too long oppressed the poor and downtrodden Arab world with only the most brutal uses of force and torment imaginable. They have even descrated THE holy book! By gum, these Americans should be stopped at any cost!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 That's what I figured. So I'll break out the tired, trite, Politically Correct resopnse: "We should, at all times, seek to embrace and respect Islam as a great world religion. The holy sits of Mecca and Medina are a part of said tradition. Therefore, they deserve all our respect. Also, we should see that America and its imperialisat lapdogs, the Israelis have too long oppressed the poor, downtrodden Arab world with only the most brutal uses of force and torment. They have even descrated THE holy book! By gum, these Americans should be stopped at any cost!" 384270[/snapback] Look, we all know you're a militant anti-Islamic xenophobe who deals only in absolutes. Regardless of whether or not you use direct statements or unsubtle sarcasm, you don't have to prove it to us EVERY SINGLE DAY. And if you're going to recommend such things...don't be entirely surprised when your extremist counterparts in Islam nuke the Vatican, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 The issue was the fact that this moron said it. That statement is likely in every Islamic media outlet and will be used by extremists to justify their hate. If we are ever going to help the moderates in the middle east win power we have to stop morons like this Congressman. I think his statement did more harm than we will ever know. 384165[/snapback] You seemed to gloss over the fact that he is a Republican. No worries, it's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Yeah...but...our nukes are better than their nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 The issue was the fact that this moron said it. That statement is likely in every Islamic media outlet and will be used by extremists to justify their hate. If we are ever going to help the moderates in the middle east win power we have to stop morons like this Congressman. I think his statement did more harm than we will ever know. 384165[/snapback] The real stupidity was the question. Let me ask you two questions: 1. What should he have said? (The only thing I can think of is: I don't deal in hypotheticals."). 2. What do you think we should do in such a circumstance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Y. Orangeman Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Do you think he really knew where Mecca was when he made the comment? I say it is about 50-50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 2. What do you think we should do in such a circumstance? 384305[/snapback] Why even bother with nukes? There's only about four countries in the world the US couldn't utterly wreck with conventional forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Gant Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Isn't Mecca pretty well a "spot on the ground"? Seems they could re-build it. 384177[/snapback] They don't really do anything with it, they just need a direction to pray in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philburger1 Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 As I said, it looks like the Congressman got advice from some of the mental-giants around here. The problem with your analysis is that you only account for "hard-power" and completely neglect the more important facet of international relations, "soft-power." The stupid statement by the Congressman affects the "soft-power" analysis. 384195[/snapback] So if nuke explodes in the US, thanks to Jihad Johnies, we should explore the facets of 'international relations'? It's not a country vs another country. It s one philosophy and belief system verses another. If a nuclear bomb went off on US soil you could pretty much kiss bye any notion of western society continuing to function as it does now. I know you might consider yourself to be some type of intellectual powerhouse, but if you believe that global militant islam is something that dealt with treaties and diplomacy, you are not any brighter than the "metal-giants" you mock on this board. Let me guess, you think it is only a handful of muslims in the world that believe that philosophy? And that it is only a result of American Imperialism or Zionist tyranny? Oh boy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 So if nuke explodes in the US, thanks to Jihad Johnies, we should explore the facets of 'international relations'? It's not a country vs another country. It s one philosophy and belief system verses another. If a nuclear bomb went off on US soil you could pretty much kiss bye any notion of western society continuing to function as it does now. I know you might consider yourself to be some type of intellectual powerhouse, but if you believe that global militant islam is something that dealt with treaties and diplomacy, you are not any brighter than the "metal-giants" you mock on this board. Let me guess, you think it is only a handful of muslims in the world that believe that philosophy? And that it is only a result of American Imperialism or Zionist tyranny? Oh boy..... 384329[/snapback] Wish it were that simple. Know it wasn't my question, but a lot of the real successes dealing with these people are through venues other than direct military action. Thoughts of treaties and diplomacy with the TERRORISTS accomplishes nothing, but treaties and diplomacy, along with other actions with the people who have them living in their backyards can accomplish a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 you are not any brighter than the "metal-giants" you mock on this board. No, I was only mocking you. Let me guess, you think it is only a handful of muslims in the world that believe that philosophy? And that it is only a result of American Imperialism or Zionist tyranny? Oh boy..... 384329[/snapback] Don't get yourself all worked up - I did not mention "Imperialism" or Zionist tyranny" anywhere (in fact you can search all my posts and I am pretty sure I have never used those terms). If you believe that the problem of Islamic Extremism can be shot from the barrel of a gun then they have already won! Hard power will not win this for us, rather our cultural and economic forces have to win over a new generation. Cause cultural conflict among generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Gant Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Wish it were that simple. Know it wasn't my question, but a lot of the real successes dealing with these people are through venues other than direct military action. Thoughts of treaties and diplomacy with the TERRORISTS accomplishes nothing, but treaties and diplomacy, along with other actions with the people who have them living in their backyards can accomplish a lot. 384341[/snapback] Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 No, I was only mocking you. Don't get yourself all worked up - I did not mention "Imperialism" or Zionist tyranny" anywhere (in fact you can search all my posts and I am pretty sure I have never used those terms). If you believe that the problem of Islamic Extremism can be shot from the barrel of a gun then they have already won! Hard power will not win this for us, rather our cultural and economic forces have to win over a new generation. Cause cultural conflict among generations. 384349[/snapback] That's not the right answer either. It usually takes pressure, not winning hearts and minds. There's just different ways of exerting pressure besides an air strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyT Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Isn't Mecca pretty well a "spot on the ground"? Seems they could re-build it. 384177[/snapback] Sure. It would be the same ol' spot on the ground...just deeper. Much deeper. Anyway...if the terrorists really value their holy sites, why does it seem that mosques are one of their top hiding spots/fighting positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Sure. It would be the same ol' spot on the ground...just deeper. Much deeper. Anyway...if the terrorists really value their holy sites, why does it seem that mosques are one of their top hiding spots/fighting positions? 384393[/snapback] Because they know the western press will make us look like monsters (along with Al Brassier) if we look cross-eyed at one? They know the ROE probably better than most of our troops do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Contrary to the movies, they don't glow all that long. Off the top of my head, you can apply the 7/10's rule. For every 7 periods of time, the residual radiation decreases by a factor of 10. Some neutron induced activity in the vicinity of ground zero will last longer, but still not that much of an issue. One would use an airburst, anyway. Go for the static overpressure blast effects, and better thermal. Wouldn't be that much residual to start out with. 384227[/snapback] Cladding. And if things pop, it's the Ar Megiddo prophesy come, and the list probably includes 50+ cities. The Congressman merely voiced an undercurrent...how could response not happen?... the gloves would be off. To remind about the effects of a pop, click on this Penn State scenario: http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/b/pbw1..._explosion.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Cladding. And if things pop, it's the Ar Megiddo prophesy come, and the list probably includes 50+ cities. The Congressman voiced an undercurrent. To remind about the effects of a pop, click on this Penn State scenario: http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/b/pbw1..._explosion.html 384403[/snapback] 20 megs is a pretty big "pop".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 20 megs is a pretty big "pop".... 384426[/snapback] The deed gets done regardless; it's not a mine-is-bigger thing. One could make a case for a 0.5 kt yield being more debilitating because of more wounded. Let's not get into a discussion of killing efficiency and bang for the buck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 The deed gets done regardless; it's not a mine-is-bigger thing. One could make a case for a 0.5 kt yield being more debilitating because of more wounded. Let's not get into a discussion of killing efficiency and bang for the buck... 384433[/snapback] I was thinking more about what might be considered "realistic", in a terrorism scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Look, we all know you're a militant anti-Islamic xenophobe who deals only in absolutes. 384274[/snapback] Aw, shucks. You say the sweetest things. I think I've got a mancrush. Call up John Adams, I bet he could do the "life affirmation" ceremony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Look, we all know you're a militant anti-Islamic xenophobe who deals only in absolutes. 384274[/snapback] He ain't afraid of no Xenoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 You seemed to gloss over the fact that he is a Republican. No worries, it's all good. 384296[/snapback] Bet'cha a buck, had Hillary said that, he wouldnt have posted it. Most know the Slothdog is a left leaning tree hugger, catch up, will ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Gant Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Aw, shucks. You say the sweetest things. I think I've got a mancrush. Call up John Adams, I bet he could do the "life affirmation" ceremony 384438[/snapback] You have said some creepy things in the past Joe, but this has to be number one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I was thinking more about what might be considered "realistic", in a terrorism scenario. 384434[/snapback] Yes, I know. But it is the beginning... "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein. Yet, there are many here, and much of Europe, who think their charm and powers of pursuation and "by-gosh-I-know-I'm right" logic will induce organisms cultivated from birth to kill you and me will miraculously see some sort of amicable light. Propaganda works. The globe is awash with the buried bones of such optimists. The current crowd is similar, and are cluless, and actually contemptuous of those who don't want to share their unknowing fate. It pays to strike first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 You have said some creepy things in the past Joe, butthis has to be number one. 384452[/snapback] SARCASM, poindexter. Throwing out a little sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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