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DPOY - Tremaine Edmunds (?!?)


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12 hours ago, NewEra said:

Agree to disagree. 
 

I’ve spent too much of my time talking bad about a player that I like.....but I just don’t think is “very good”.  He ok in my book, 2 Pro Bowls and one teams game plan aside.    

 

 

Fair enough.

 

But again, very few people agree with you, and pretty much all of them are Bills fans. 

 

To believe this you have to throw out more than just the 2 Pro Bowls and one (excellent) team's game plan. You also have to throw out pretty much every LB ranking out there.

 

If you're willing to do that, your choice, fair enough.

 

Myself, I make my evaluations not by ignoring data and facts with which I disagree, but precisely by looking at as many facts, as much data as I can, then looking at context, and then taking my evaluations based on everything.

 

When I first saw the "facts" you and Badol presented, I went looking for context. I wanted to find out what those numbers meant. I wanted to find out how those numbers compared to other LBs over a 3-year period, and various other kinds of context. I couldn't find anything. I am not surprised you couldn't provide any context, but I hoped you would. I'd love to see the context for them.

 

Without context, those numbers are like saying that in baseball, Batter X had 250 hits and 17 triples over the past three seasons. That doesn't tell you much without knowing much more. How many at-bats did he have? What were his power numbers? Walks? You have to know more to make those numbers useful.

 

Same with the numbers you and Badol produced. 

 

When you look at all the facts, the rankings being near-unanimous, the fact that the coaches love him and paid him his fifth-year option, how well the defense has done during those three years, and the fact that the Ravens, the only team we know defensive specifics about treated Edmunds as the key to their game plan, by far the most obvious conclusion is that he's playing very well. Far better than OK, not reaching the level you'd call great.

 

You want to just push "aside" 2 Pro Bowls, one game plan, the fact that they gave picked up his option ... you're limiting your ability to understand the situation, I would argue. But that's your business. 

 

Good luck to you, and see you around the boards.

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Edmunds is too slow physically and mentally to be even considered for DPOY. Mr. Whitewash.    We need to upgrade that position.     

The takeaway is most Bills fans criminally undervalue Edmunds. He probably won’t win DPOY but he has DPOY talent and ability. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-2021-fearless-forecasts-from-mvp-to-sack-leader-to-first-qb-benched-predictions-in-19-categories/ Interesting....Curious though.

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Is it possible, @Thurman#1, that citing the NFL's most one-dimensional offense's plan for attacking the Bills D, is not a super convincing line of argument? Is it possible that if a one-dimensional offense like Baltimore's decided to focus their attack on Edmunds, then maybe they viewed Edmunds as a liability they could exploit? And while the Bills D played well in that game, isn't it also possible that the one-dimensional quality of the Ravens offense might have allowed Edmunds to be more decisive and therefore effective? It's become a playoff theme (diminishing returns) for Baltimore with Jackson at QB, hasn't it? I mean, how good did our MLB look against Indy and KC in contrast? Playing against teams with the very real threat of offensive balance might be better indicators of an MLB's real value. 

 

I don't hate Edmunds at all, but I do see an elite athlete potentially playing out of position with respect to pre-snap processing and post-snap impact plays. 

 

I did NOT yet listen to the podcast referencing Baltimore's offensive approach to playing the Bills D, for the record.

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8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

But again, very few people agree with you, and pretty much all of them are Bills fans. 

 

To believe this you have to throw out more than just the 2 Pro Bowls and one (excellent) team's game plan. You also have to throw out pretty much every LB ranking out there.

 

If you're willing to do that, your choice, fair enough.

 

Myself, I make my evaluations not by ignoring data and facts with which I disagree, but precisely by looking at as many facts, as much data as I can, then looking at context, and then taking my evaluations based on everything.

 

When I first saw the "facts" you and Badol presented, I went looking for context. I wanted to find out what those numbers meant. I wanted to find out how those numbers compared to other LBs over a 3-year period, and various other kinds of context. I couldn't find anything. I am not surprised you couldn't provide any context, but I hoped you would. I'd love to see the context for them.

 

Without context, those numbers are like saying that in baseball, Batter X had 250 hits and 17 triples over the past three seasons. That doesn't tell you much without knowing much more. How many at-bats did he have? What were his power numbers? Walks? You have to know more to make those numbers useful.

 

Same with the numbers you and Badol produced. 

 

When you look at all the facts, the rankings being near-unanimous, the fact that the coaches love him and paid him his fifth-year option, how well the defense has done during those three years, and the fact that the Ravens, the only team we know defensive specifics about treated Edmunds as the key to their game plan, by far the most obvious conclusion is that he's playing very well. Far better than OK, not reaching the level you'd call great.

 

You want to just push "aside" 2 Pro Bowls, one game plan, the fact that they gave picked up his option ... you're limiting your ability to understand the situation, I would argue. But that's your business. 

 

Good luck to you, and see you around the boards.


I don’t look at a lot of data.  But you do, so, show me the data that says “very few people agree with me”.  The fact that all the people that agree with me (a statement that you didn’t back up with data. a list in which he’s the 24th rated off ball Lb proves that it’s not only bills fans that agree with me.  24th isn’t a good thing) are all bills fans would show me that “people who actually watch bills games” agree with me. as opposed to people who don’t watch every Bills game.  But I’ve yet to see any data to support you claim.  

 

 I KNOW that Jordan Poyer was twice the player that Edmunds was last year......yet he didn’t make the pro bowl.   That shows me that making the pro bowl doesn’t mean Jack. I watched Ruben brown get voted to 8 straight pro bowls.  His play wasn’t worthy of 8 straight pro bowls, the first few he was.   In many ways (not all ways), it’s a popularity contest.  It always has been.  
 

Edmunds PFF Score- 48- pro bowl.  Pretty much every “ok” MLB in the league had a higher rating.

poyer- PFF score- 78- no pro bowl.  
Tyrann Mathieu- pff score 64-  pro bowl

 

I’m about to go to work, so I don’t have time to post Poyers “data” compared to tyrann, but you can look it up.  Easy.  Poyer had him across the board except ints. Not to mention that Poyer destroys the ball carrier when he hits them.  He was a true pro bowler last season.  Yet he’s not as popular.  
 

which AFC Lbs are perennial pro bowlers every season?  I’ll wait.  Edmunds has been tagged as that guy.  You said at some point that there was great Young Lb play in the afc...... other than Leonard, who do you speak of?  Which of these player have made the pro bowl?  Then look at their “data” and compare them to Edmunds 2020 season.  Alexander Johnson, Cunningham, Littleton, McKinney,Schobert, Jack?  Cunningham is pretty good.....I wouldn’t even consider him “very good”.  I wouldn’t consider any of those Lbs to be “very good”.  Edmunds included.  
 

off to work. 
 

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Is it possible, @Thurman#1, that citing the NFL's most one-dimensional offense's plan for attacking the Bills D, is not a super convincing line of argument? Is it possible that if a one-dimensional offense like Baltimore's decided to focus their attack on Edmunds, then maybe they viewed Edmunds as a liability they could exploit? And while the Bills D played well in that game, isn't it also possible that the one-dimensional quality of the Ravens offense might have allowed Edmunds to be more decisive and therefore effective? It's become a playoff theme (diminishing returns) for Baltimore with Jackson at QB, hasn't it? I mean, how good did our MLB look against Indy and KC in contrast? Playing against teams with the very real threat of offensive balance might be better indicators of an MLB's real value. 

 

I don't hate Edmunds at all, but I do see an elite athlete potentially playing out of position with respect to pre-snap processing and post-snap impact plays. 

 

I did NOT yet listen to the podcast referencing Baltimore's offensive approach to playing the Bills D, for the record.

A great, well articulated point.  

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9 hours ago, mattynh said:

Is he on notice?

we can discuss all day about what Edmunds brings. and or should bring.
If I am the McBeanes. I sure need a more complete player. And Impactful player.

Not because of his draft status, But the importance of his role in Bills Defense.
 and I am biased

 I like a player whom is feared at MLB

London Fletcher had  some nice stats for tackles. but they were all downfield after gains.
He was not a good fit ?

Maybe Edmunds would excel elsewhere.

still hoping for Tremaine to become a disruptive player

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