Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Not being religious, I wouldn't know about the whole redemption thing. My whole point is that if this guy is pious to the point of infallibility, one would assume that he could have chosen not to joun the HItler Youth and accepted the punishment that other objectors did. 309340[/snapback] That's a very good point. But it's not what you originally said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Not being religious, I wouldn't know about the whole redemption thing. My whole point is that if this guy is pious to the point of infallibility, one would assume that he could have chosen not to joun the HItler Youth and accepted the punishment that other objectors did. 309340[/snapback] I've never heard it anywhere declared that the Pope is born infallible, but rather by working up through the ranks attains a state of infallibility. Very different, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Well, let's give the remaining Nazis around the world a pass, too. Since it doesn't stick around in someone's personality and all...I'm sure they're all crusaders for human equality now. 309348[/snapback] What exactly do you consider a "Nazi"? I think calling a 14-year old kid who was drafted into the Hitlerjugend, released for the seminary, and served in the civil defense a "Nazi" is a bit of a stretch. Of course, I also think Patton had it right: membership in the Nazi party was little different than membership in the Republican or Democratic parties. Not every Nazi party member killed a Jew. And that, of course, is above and beyond the fact that Ratzinger was never actually a member of the Nazi party!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 What exactly do you consider a "Nazi"? I think calling a 14-year old kid who was drafted into the Hitlerjugend, released for the seminary, and served in the civil defense a "Nazi" is a bit of a stretch. Of course, I also think Patton had it right: membership in the Nazi party was little different than membership in the Republican or Democratic parties. Not every Nazi party member killed a Jew. And that, of course, is above and beyond the fact that Ratzinger was never actually a member of the Nazi party!!!! 309388[/snapback] Exactly. It appears that the Holy Father (weird) was anything BUT a willing participant in the Nazi Party. But what scares me is that there will be many in the world that will use this to further cast hatred towards the Catholic Church. And, of course, there is the 'stinkin' hypocrite' angle. That is..many people who always say "dont paint all people of a certain type with the same brush" will be the same who do just that in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTS Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 So, what's your point.? The guy was indoctrinated with Nazi ideology at a young age. That stuff doesn't ever go away. 309234[/snapback] Both my parents grew up in Communist Poland. My mom's parents grew up under Nazi rule. My Dad's parent's under Stalin's rule. Do you know how much of those teachings they took with them and eventually passed on to me? ZERO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beausox Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 I've never heard it anywhere declared that the Pope is born infallible, but rather by working up through the ranks attains a state of infallibility. Very different, IMO. 309381[/snapback] Papal infalibility has been invoked twice, viz: Immaculate Conception and Assumption. It was necessary because the Papacy had been subject to being hi-jacked by France, Holy Roman Emporor, Borgias, Medici just about everyone but the Synod of Priory so freedom was necessary. It only occurs ex cathedra and I believe it is not invoked for Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 So, what's your point.? The guy was indoctrinated with Nazi ideology at a young age. That stuff doesn't ever go away. 309234[/snapback] From all accounts, the new Holy Father RAN from Nazi ideology every chance he got, either by joining a seminary or deserting the military. Maybe its blind faith by me, but I doubt someone who had the cajones to desert from the NAZIS in 1944 Germany really was "indocrinated" with their ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Both my parents grew up in Communist Poland. My mom's parents grew up under Nazi rule. My Dad's parent's under Stalin's rule. Do you know how much of those teachings they took with them and eventually passed on to me? ZERO 309463[/snapback] Yes, well my Grandfather was a prisoner of the Nazis, of course HE didnt' take anything from them. This pope was a Hitler Youth. Teesny bit of a difference, wouldn't you say? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beausox Posted April 20, 2005 Author Share Posted April 20, 2005 Yes, well my Grandfather was a prisoner of the Nazis, of course HE didnt' take anything from them. This pope was a Hitler Youth. Teesny bit of a difference, wouldn't you say? Exactly. 310009[/snapback] Sonds like your grand dad and Pope Benedict are both pretty good judges of the horrors of Fascism. I do not think either had easy, comfortable childhoods but each can bear witness- from distinct but not different perspectives of evil in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Yes, well my Grandfather was a prisoner of the Nazis, of course HE didnt' take anything from them. This pope was a Hitler Youth. Teesny bit of a difference, wouldn't you say? Exactly. 310009[/snapback] Since you seem to be having a hard time with the definition of compulsory, here ya go ... Main Entry: com·pul·so·ry Pronunciation: k&m-'p&ls-rE, -'p&l-s&- Function: adjective 1 : MANDATORY, ENFORCED 2 : COERCIVE, COMPELLING - com·pul·so·ri·ly /-r&-lE/ adverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Since you seem to be having a hard time with the definition of compulsory, here ya go ... Main Entry: com·pul·so·ry Pronunciation: k&m-'p&ls-rE, -'p&l-s&- Function: adjective 1 : MANDATORY, ENFORCED 2 : COERCIVE, COMPELLING - com·pul·so·ri·ly /-r&-lE/ adverb 310043[/snapback] And yet, there were people who refused. They were punished horribly, but their moral virtue was intact. One would think that someone heading to seminary would have sought to ensure their moral integrity. The whole point of this conversation is, the guy now heads an organization that is supposed to embody the teachings of Jesus Christ. Think ol' JC would have gone along with being a hitlerjugend? Think not. Hey, if that's who Catholics choose to venerate, that's their problem not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Yes, well my Grandfather was a prisoner of the Nazis, of course HE didnt' take anything from them. This pope was a Hitler Youth. Teesny bit of a difference, wouldn't you say? 310009[/snapback] Yes, but at the same time there's a good bit of difference between being compelled to serve in the Hitler Youth and choosing to join the Nazi Party or SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Yes, but at the same time there's a good bit of difference between being compelled to serve in the Hitler Youth and choosing to join the Nazi Party or SS. 310130[/snapback] Granted, but the option of refusal was there. Can someone please explain how anyone's supposed to respect the guy's MORAL AUTHORITY when he himself didn't have the moral fortitude of a John Paul II when it came to standing up to Nazism and Communism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Granted, but the option of refusal was there. Can someone please explain how anyone's supposed to respect the guy's MORAL AUTHORITY when he himself didn't have the moral fortitude of a John Paul II when it came to standing up to Nazism and Communism? 310133[/snapback] Rather than retype it... http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=309265 http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=309250 We're probably closer to agreeing than we realize...our main argument isn't about Ratzinger's suitability as Pope, but on the true definition of "Nazi". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Granted, but the option of refusal was there. Can someone please explain how anyone's supposed to respect the guy's MORAL AUTHORITY when he himself didn't have the moral fortitude of a John Paul II when it came to standing up to Nazism and Communism? 310133[/snapback] I guess things you have done as a teenage/20's disqualify you from ever speaking about them again. You would admit that you also will have no MORAL AUTHORITY or even FINANCIAL AUTHORITY when speaking to your child later on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Its quite obvious that this thing is what people like Joe are going to hang their hat on to criticise the Church. History be damned...."HE'S A NAZI!!!" is what they are going to scream, regardless of the facts. And not to forego the opportunity to be hypocritical, they will shout "yeah, well he could have refused to join" when challenged with that little tidbit about service being compulsory. As if THEY would have laughed and slammed the door in the faces of the ten SS soldiers that came-a-knockin' at 4AM. DING!!!!! Hotpockets are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Its quite obvious that this thing is what people like Joe are going to hang their hat on to criticise the Church. History be damned...."HE'S A NAZI!!!" is what they are going to scream, regardless of the facts. And not to forego the opportunity to be hypocritical, they will shout "yeah, well he could have refused to join" when challenged with that little tidbit about service being compulsory. As if THEY would have laughed and slammed the door in the faces of the ten SS soldiers that came-a-knockin' at 4AM. DING!!!!! Hotpockets are done. 310238[/snapback] Being that I quite possibly know more about the history of Nazi Germany than JSP, I feel comfortable in saying based on previous discussions with him that he knows vastly more on the subject than you. I may disagree with him on some points in this debate...hell, I may even think some of his opinions are idiotic (in a "he should know better" sense, but he is, after all, a stubborn opinionated bastard)...but I respect the body of knowledge on which he bases malformed opinions. And now I'm going to just sit back and admire that artfully crafted backhanded compliment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Being that I quite possibly know more about the history of Nazi Germany than JSP, I feel comfortable in saying based on previous discussions with him that he knows vastly more on the subject than you. And being that youve never discussed the history of the Third Reich with me, how the fleck would you be able to feel so comfortable making that assumption? I copuld have a stack of books and papers on the Third Reich a mile high in my library. How the hell would YOU know? Or is this just another example of even the smallest window to bang out "Im smarter than you" on your keyboard just getting the best of you again? I may disagree with him on some points in this debate...hell, I may even think some of his opinions are idiotic (in a "he should know better" sense, but he is, after all, a stubborn opinionated bastard)...but I respect the body of knowledge on which he bases malformed opinions. Yeah, well, thats all well and good. Except for one thing, knuckledragger....most people in this country learned in Junior High what happened to people in Nazi Germany who did as little as keep their copies of Mein Kampf under the coffee tables and not ON it. Were not exactly getting into deep deep history here. Nice try, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 And being that youve never discussed the history of the Third Reich with me, how the fleck would you be able to feel so comfortable making that assumption? Or is even the smallest window to bang out "Im smarter than you" on your keyboard again, just getting the best of you? Because I've studied it for nearly 25 years, and you're an idiot. It's a judgement call. Frigging troll. 310318[/snapback] The backhanded complement was directed at JSP, not you. I wouldn't even grace you with a backhanded one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Because I've studied it for nearly 25 years, and you're an idiot. It's a judgement call.The backhanded complement was directed at JSP, not you. I wouldn't even grace you with a backhanded one. 310323[/snapback] Im the idiot, but youre the one making an assumption of my knowledge on a subject based on nothing and even those we may even AGREE on a subject, still are trying to twist into taking the other side, just for the sake of doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts