Tremaine Edmunds: He was the worst player on the field Dec 23 (vs NE)

[The Now Moment]

On 12/23/2018 at 5:14 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

When they drafted him I didn't believe the talk they were going to try to move him inside and figured they'd move him back in TC.

 

His ceiling as an outside matchup piece was very high.    

 

I would never waste a first round pick on a MLB.............you don't need a great one and they are readily available elsewhere...........if that means I gotta' live without a Luke Kuechly on defense so be it.

 

As Bandit mentioned in the gameday thread...........they'd be better off with Stanford in the middle right now and he's a journeyman special teamer.  

Except in McDermott's scheme, linebacker is the most important position on the field.  You make that a priority when it is that important to your scheme.  Just because you can find players outside of the first round too doesn't mean you shouldn't take one in the first. You can find players of every other position outside of the first too but that doesn't mean you don't take that position in the first.  You take the best player no matter the position.  Best Player Available. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

On 12/23/2018 at 4:57 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

He was awful today.

 

Worst player on the field.

 

He's been poor most of the season and I think today was on par with or as bad as he's been all season.

 

Critically poor instincts........big target who can't get off blocks.........not strong or physical enough.......poor leverage........doesn't move well thru traffic........doesn't make plays in a scheme where he should be making a ton of them.

 

He's young........yeah........but this isn't the QB position.......good MLB's are almost without exception tremendous right out of the gate.

 

Don't be surprised if he's at OLB next season folks.

 

It’s not A game you pass judgment on but the season.  

 

JMO

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Except in McDermott's scheme, linebacker is the most important position on the field.  You make that a priority when it is that important to your scheme.  Just because you can find players outside of the first round too doesn't mean you shouldn't take one in the first. You can find players of every other position outside of the first too but that doesn't mean you don't take that position in the first.  You take the best player no matter the position.  Best Player Available. 

 

Your take is wrong on many levels, IMO.

 

First.......the best coaches can adapt their scheme to the personnel that they have or that they can most easily acquire.   If McDermott's defense requires a "white whale" like Kuechly the same way Rex's required a uber-brilliant safety in Jim Leonhard........then it's probably not really sustainable.   The good news is I don't think it does.........the MLB gets a ton of "opportunities" in this defense but they don't have to be great.   Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles in 2017.   He was by no means a chief reason their defense had issues in that Jets/Saints/Chargers stretch in 2017.

 

Second......contrary to your highlighted claim to the otherwise......it's not good policy to draft BPA at any positon in round one...........it's wiser to acquire BPA at the league's most expensive/valuable/impactful positions that you just can't fill in free agency because they don't become available unless there is a major concern about them.

 

 You can *sometimes* can find a LT or stud pass rusher or shutdown CB or #1 WR outside of round one..........but you can always find RB's, LB's and S's all over the draft.

 

 

Rule of thumb.....if the top players at that position wouldn't get $15M+ per on the open market.........pass on them in round 1.

 

RB's and safeties don't get that........and neither do dedicated MLB's.   Not even Kuechly.

 

 

  

[The Now Moment]

46 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Your take is wrong on many levels, IMO.

 

First.......the best coaches can adapt their scheme to the personnel that they have or that they can most easily acquire.   If McDermott's defense requires a "white whale" like Kuechly the same way Rex's required a uber-brilliant safety in Jim Leonhard........then it's probably not really sustainable.   The good news is I don't think it does.........the MLB gets a ton of "opportunities" in this defense but they don't have to be great.   Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles in 2017.   He was by no means a chief reason their defense had issues in that Jets/Saints/Chargers stretch in 2017.

 

Second......contrary to your highlighted claim to the otherwise......it's not good policy to draft BPA at any positon in round one...........it's wiser to acquire BPA at the league's most expensive/valuable/impactful positions that you just can't fill in free agency because they don't become available unless there is a major concern about them.

 

 You can *sometimes* can find a LT or stud pass rusher or shutdown CB or #1 WR outside of round one..........but you can always find RB's, LB's and S's all over the draft.

 

 

Rule of thumb.....if the top players at that position wouldn't get $15M+ per on the open market.........pass on them in round 1.

 

RB's and safeties don't get that........and neither do dedicated MLB's.   Not even Kuechly.

 

 

  

Preston Brown had tackles, sure but he didn't do much else.  He didn't force turnovers and wasn't a factor in pass rush.  He was also a liability at times against the pass.  Keuchly makes tackles, plays the pass well,  forced fumbles and lives in the backfield.  Brown's impact on the field didn't even come close to what Keuchly does.  Just because he lead the league in tackles doesn't mean he was very impactful.  If the player has a chance to be a top three player at their position no matter what they play, (leaving out positions like K, P and fullback) then you take them. 

 

I don't think the Ravens regretted taking either Ray Lewis or Ed Reed.  There are several players I could list at both positions that were absolutely worth a first round pick.  

 

As for running back, Saquon Barkley is close to 2,000 yards from scrimmage with 14 touchdowns.  He could be a top three running back over the next ten years, so could Ezekial Elliot.  These guys carry their teams.  They are elite.  You take the best player.  Elite players, no matter the position can make a huge difference.  

 

Avoiding certain positions in the first round is a poor strategy by a GM.  You take the best players that fit what you are trying to do.  Drafting is hard enough because there are so many busts even in the first round.  Taking draft positions off of the board in the first round only decreases your chance of finding an impact player.  

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Buffalo30

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Preston Brown had tackles, sure but he didn't do much else.  He didn't force turnovers and wasn't a factor in pass rush.  He was also a liability at times against the pass.  Keuchly makes tackles, played the pass well,  forced fumbles and lives in the backfield.  Brown's impact on the field didn't even come close to what Keuchly does.  Just because he lead the league in tackles doesn't mean he was very impactful.  If the player has a chance to be a top three player at their position no matter what they play, (leaving out positions like K, P and fullback) then you take them. 

 

I don't think the Ravens regretted taking either Ray Lewis or Ed Reed.  There are several players I could list at both positions that were absolutely worth a first round pick.  

 

As for running back, Saquon Barkley is close to 2,000 yards from scrimmage with 14 touchdowns.  He could be a top three running back over the next ten years, so could Ezekial Elliot.  These guys carry their teams.  They are elite.  You take the best player.  Elite players, no matter the position can make a huge difference.  

 

Avoiding certain positions in the first round is a poor strategy by a GM.  You take the best players that fit what you are trying to do.  Drafting is hard enough because there are so many busts even in the first round.  Taking draft positions off of the board in the first round only decreases your chance of finding an impact player.  

 

 

 

Yours is the old school mentality that gets beaten in this century.......waiting 20 years for another RB to "carry" his team to a SB victory?

 

Back when Ray Lewis and Ed Reed were drafted I was on board with that kind of BPA at any position take.......the game was a lot different then......but the game today is primarily about QB play and affecting QB play.

 

Those positions are pretty well defined and they get paid top dollar because that's the difference between winning big and not.

 

So it's great for your fantasy team that your RB put up 2,000 yards from scrimmage and 14 TD's..........but that's not how games are won and lost in the NFL anymore.

 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, Buffalo30 said:

Except in McDermott's scheme, linebacker is the most important position on the field.  You make that a priority when it is that important to your scheme.  Just because you can find players outside of the first round too doesn't mean you shouldn't take one in the first. You can find players of every other position outside of the first too but that doesn't mean you don't take that position in the first.  You take the best player no matter the position.  Best Player Available. 

I don't follow. Did we take the one position McDermott desperately needed to fit his scheme or did we take the BPA. I'm fine with either provided we got a good one, but you can't have both. I find it very convenient if the BPA was trading up for a MLB

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yours is the old school mentality that gets beaten in this century.......waiting 20 years for another RB to "carry" his team to a SB victory?

 

Back when Ray Lewis and Ed Reed were drafted I was on board with that kind of BPA at any position take.......the game was a lot different then......but the game today is primarily about QB play and affecting QB play.

 

Those positions are pretty well defined and they get paid top dollar because that's the difference between winning big and not.

 

So it's great for your fantasy team that your RB put up 2,000 yards from scrimmage and 14 TD's..........but that's not how games are won and lost in the NFL anymore.

 

Talk to the 2018 Ravens brutha. Winning football takes all shapes and sizes.

 

We can herald the end of the running game and see Marshawn Lynch win a SB (and several other teams with more defense than offense) very reactionary to call 2 years the new wave of football.

Edited December 28, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I don't follow. Did we take the one position McDermott desperately needed to fit his scheme or did we take the BPA. I'm fine with either provided we got a good one, but you can't have both. I find it very convenient if the BPA was trading up for a MLB

 

Well Edmunds was the top player on the board along with James at the time the pick was selected.  Beane said it himself that it's rare to find the best player on your board also be a need at the time you select.  That's why they traded up...

[Bing Bong]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Well Edmunds was the top player on the board along with James at the time the pick was selected.  Beane said it himself that it's rare to find the best player on your board also be a need at the time you select.  That's why they traded up...

I don't understand the definition of BPA if tradeups are called for. That means he's not AVAILABLE. Manning was BPA and we needed a QB. Why not trade up.

 

I'm sure Edmunds was good value and all where he was. He obviously was their favorite MLB and they needed and MLB and thus traded up. I'm sure Beane sugarcoated the decision by saying it was BPA + need. He needed a MLB. I seriously don't think he considered more than 2-3 positions for his version of "BPA"

Edited December 28, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[The Now Moment]

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yours is the old school mentality that gets beaten in this century.......waiting 20 years for another RB to "carry" his team to a SB victory?

 

Back when Ray Lewis and Ed Reed were drafted I was on board with that kind of BPA at any position take.......the game was a lot different then......but the game today is primarily about QB play and affecting QB play.

 

Those positions are pretty well defined and they get paid top dollar because that's the difference between winning big and not.

 

So it's great for your fantasy team that your RB put up 2,000 yards from scrimmage and 14 TD's..........but that's not how games are won and lost in the NFL anymore.

 

You don't think linebackers, safeties and running backs effect QB play?  I'd love to get a QB's opinion on that.  You don't think an elite safety or linebacker effects what a QB does with the football?  You don't think that an elite running back can take the pressure off of a solid QB and open up opportunities for him?  You're crazy if you think they don't impact QB play. 

 

Running backs are being implemented more into the pass game now, some are even getting 1,000 yard receiving seasons.  The game surely has changed and each position has changed as well.  Elite players at any position can take over a game.  

 

Elite safeties can have 5-7 interceptions in a season.  They are the players that the QB must move with their eyes down the field.  Again, just silliness to say that they don't effect the QB.  Good safety play can ruin a game for a QB.  

Edited December 28, 2018 by Buffalo30

[The Now Moment]

10 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I don't understand the definition of BPA if tradeups are called for. That means he's not AVAILABLE. Manning was BPA and we needed a QB. Why not trade up.

 

I'm sure Edmunds was good value and all where he was. He obviously was their favorite MLB and they needed and MLB and thus traded up. I'm sure Beane sugarcoated the decision by saying it was BPA + need. He needed a MLB. I seriously don't think he considered more than 2-3 positions for his version of "BPA"

 

It's not like Edmunds fell he was right where he was supposed to be at that time.

Edmunds was widely considered a top ten pick in the class.  The analysts talked about him and James "falling" in the draft when we drafted him.  Also, you have to look at last year's draft class and what was considered the strengths of that class. Linebacker was one of the major strengths of the class in the first round.  This year the strength is up front on the line.  That wasn't the case last year.  It wasn't considered a great wide receiver class nor was it a great cornerback or offensive line class. 

 

I don't blame Beane for wanting to trade up and get one of the MLB in a solid MLB class.  Hopefully, the kid improves moving forward and earns the selection.  

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

 

Talk to the 2018 Ravens brutha. Winning football takes all shapes and sizes.

 

We can herald the end of the running game and see Marshawn Lynch win a SB (and several other teams with more defense than offense) very reactionary to call 2 years the new wave of football.

 

Well.......in perspective the Ravens are just 9-6........if they lose this weekend they are probably out of the playoffs again so not really what I mean by "winning big".

 

Defense can still win a championship but it has to be a suffocating pass defense...........like Seattle or Denver.

 

Baltimore has the pass rush and they have invested in those CB's but it's going to be a tough row to hoe winning 3 games and 2 on the road.    

 

You really think Baltimore is going to win the SB?

 

As for the running game...........RB's are still available all over the draft and they are pretty replaceable.

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

don't blame Beane for wanting to trade up and get one of the MLB in a solid MLB class.  Hopefully, the kid improves moving forward and earns the selection.  

Yeah I didn't realize Edmunds was a top 10 prospect. Hope so too!

 

I am concerned about Edmunds, and surprised a 19 year old was projected that high. I prefer MLBs that can buy a beer legally. 

 

If we claim his age as an excuse for not meeting expectations and expect him to get better as he gets.. older?.. we're admitting he's far from a sure thing. I wouldn't draft a 19 year old personally waaaaay too much that could go wrong.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Edmunds was widely considered a top ten pick in the class.  The analysts talked about him and James "falling" in the draft when we drafted him.  Also, you have to look at last year's draft class and what was considered the strengths of that class. Linebacker was one of the major strengths of the class in the first round.  This year the strength is up front on the line.  That wasn't the case last year.  It wasn't considered a great wide receiver class nor was it a great cornerback or offensive line class. 

 

I don't blame Beane for wanting to trade up and get one of the MLB in a solid MLB class.  Hopefully, the kid improves moving forward and earns the selection.  

 

 

You are just blowing hot air now.........I didn't say Edmunds was a reach..........I made that pretty clear in this long thread but you jumped to that conclusion because I don't like his poor play at MLB.

 

As I've said about a dozen times.........love his potential as an edge player.    

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

Edmunds was widely considered a top ten pick in the class.  The analysts talked about him and James "falling" in the draft when we drafted him.  Also, you have to look at last year's draft class and what was considered the strengths of that class. Linebacker was one of the major strengths of the class in the first round.  This year the strength is up front on the line.  That wasn't the case last year.  It wasn't considered a great wide receiver class nor was it a great cornerback or offensive line class. 

 

I don't blame Beane for wanting to trade up and get one of the MLB in a solid MLB class.  Hopefully, the kid improves moving forward and earns the selection.  

I just can't get down with that line of thinking. You're not gonna blame Beane if Edmunds doesn't pan out because the linebacker class was "considered" a strength? He gets paid to make proper decisions and doesn't get mulligans because draftniks thought it was a great LB class. 

 

It's also prudent to draft premium positions if they grade out similarly to non premium positions. QB's, LT's, WR's, DE's and CB's should always take precedent. That doesn't mean you don't draft a guard or a safety if they happen to be superior 95% prospects. I'm sure the Colts are happy with their selection of Nelson. Nevertheless, it makes fiscal sense to get players at premium positions on rookie contracts.

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Yeah I didn't realize Edmunds was a top 10 prospect. Hope so too!

 

I am concerned about Edmunds, and surprised a 19 year old was projected that high. I prefer MLBs that can buy a beer legally. 

 

If we claim his age as an excuse for not meeting expectations and expect him to get better as he gets.. older?.. we're admitting he's far from a sure thing. I wouldn't draft a 19 year old personally waaaaay too much that could go wrong.

I agree the age is concerning.  However, they believe they can mold him and his great physical gifts.  Same goes for Allen.  Hopefully, both improve.

[mead107]

So, did we decide who was the worst?

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Well.......in perspective the Ravens are just 9-6........if they lose this weekend they are probably out of the playoffs again so not really what I mean by "winning big".

 

Defense can still win a championship but it has to be a suffocating pass defense...........like Seattle or Denver.

 

Baltimore has the pass rush and they have invested in those CB's but it's going to be a tough row to hoe winning 3 games and 2 on the road.    

 

You really think Baltimore is going to win the SB?

 

As for the running game...........RB's are still available all over the draft and they are pretty replaceable.

For sure. Ravens are my dark horse in the playoff race along with Texans. Waaay too many unbalanced teams in the AFC while the Ravens are running train. Btw they've been crushing it with Lamar taking place. Dude has like 1 loss. That running game and defense is steam rolling teams right now and arguably the hottest in the league.

 

Dude seriously? I'll bet my Flutie flakes Baker gets pummeled to a pulp in a convincing loss. Ravens going to run train on the Browns there's no question!

[The Now Moment]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are just blowing hot air now.........I didn't say Edmunds was a reach..........I made that pretty clear in this long thread but you jumped to that conclusion because I don't like his poor play at MLB.

 

As I've said about a dozen times.........love his potential as an edge player.    

I was responding to and quoted someone else, not you...

Edited December 28, 2018 by Buffalo30

[Bing Bong]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are just blowing hot air now.........I didn't say Edmunds was a reach..........I made that pretty clear in this long thread but you jumped to that conclusion because I don't like his poor play at MLB.

 

As I've said about a dozen times.........love his potential as an edge player.    

He's replying to me lol

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

I was responding and quoted someone else, not you...

Gotchu

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I just can't get down with that line of thinking. You're not gonna blame Beane if Edmunds doesn't pan out because the linebacker class was "considered" a strength? He gets paid to make proper decisions and doesn't get mulligans because draftniks thought it was a great LB class. 

 

It's also prudent to draft premium positions if they grade out similarly to non premium positions. QB's, LT's, WR's, DE's and CB's should always take precedent. That doesn't mean you don't draft a guard or a safety if they happen to be superior 95% prospects. I'm sure the Colts are happy with their selection of Nelson. Nevertheless, it makes fiscal sense to get players at premium positions on rookie contracts.

I didn't say I wouldn't blame him if the guy doesn't pan out.  Please read carefully.  I said I don't blame him for trading up for a MLB which clearly was a position of strength in the first round in that class.