boyst Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 So, in countless threads I keep reading that anyone would be better then Kyle Orton & EJ Manuel. Sure, I realize this is some hysteria but we need to take a look because maybe there is a better answer. Obviously, we do not know about any surprise cuts or QB's available for trade but I truly have a hard time believing that someone like Stafford would be traded or Bradford would be released/traded before training camp begins. Matt Moore - Mia Mark Sanchez - Phi Jay Clocker - Ten Michael Vick - NJJ Matt Hasselbeck - Ind Christian Ponder - Min Matt Flynn - GB Blaine Gabbert - SF Shaun Hill - StL Jason Campbell - Cin Tarvaris Jackson - Sea Brian Hoyer - Cle Ryan Mallet - Hou Tyrod Taylor - Bal Scott Tolzien - GB TJ Yates - Atl Jimmy Clausen - Chi Joe Webb - Car Luke McCown - NO Colt McCoy - Was Dan Orlovsky - Det Kellen Moore - Det Austin Davis - StL Josh Johnson - SF Matt Blanchard - Car Matt Simms - NJJ Ryan Lindley - Ari Thaddeus Lewis - Hou Chester Stewart - Bal GJ Kinnie - NJJ Kyle Newhall-Caballero - Oak Tyler Hansen - Cin At some point there is floor, a point no lower then Ryan Mallet likely, where starting talent will not be found beneath. QB's like Vick, Moore, Ponder, Hill, Campbell and quite a few more obvious QB's up there are no better then Orton or Manuel. Sanchez may be better now that he is in a better environment but he'd be a fool to leave Phili in a system that may finally be working for him. Houston can't afford to Lewis and Mallet with Fitz and anyone else they have (boy did they screw up down there bringing in Mallet). There is not one QB on that list who I believe would take us further then Manuel or Orton could. Orton is a smart enough player to adapt to many systems should Marrone and/or Hackett be gone. If we are to start over at QB and only fill the glass half full again I have to wonder if it is really worth pouring it out to begin with? We have tried and failed at this since Fitzpatrick and I have raised that point in many threads. We have been so desperate to find a QB answer that we went with players that NEVER should have been acquired and it's pure Kool Aid to think they were going to add anything. If you need help on those names: Matt Flynn, Thad Lewis, Travaris Jackson, Jesse Palmer, Jeff Tuel, Vince Young, Matt Leinert, Kevin Kolb, EJ Manuel and Kyle Orton. Yes, if we would have simply bit the bullet and kept Fitz for 2013 we likely would not and should not have wasted a pick on EJ Manuel. We should have upgraded OL after losing Levitre (Kyle Long or Chance Warmack) or TE (Eifert or Ertz). We should have waited until later in the draft to get a project QB and ended up with Dystert, Nassib, Wilson, Barkley, Glennon or Jones perhaps that year. Maybe in 2014 we'd have still moved up to take Watkins, or maybe we drafted Patterson in 2013, especially going BPA. In 2014 we would have had the world open to us and a chance to still get Kyle Orton for next to nothing. McCarron, Mettenberger, Savage, any other project QB could have been had in the draft. My point in this thread is to remind everyone that while we need help at QB we do not need to throw Orton away and try to start back over with a QB no likely able to offer more then he can already. This team would have been no worse (and likely not much better, if any) if Fitzpatrick was still signal calling. Yes, it'd have been costly, $10mm for 2013 but I seem to remember it would have gone down over the years because only $24mm of the 6 year deal was guaranteed Either way, think it over I guess before we just go out and cry for anyone else at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumblefish Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 bottom line, it doesn't matter who you get or don't get, the Bills are very undisciplined on the field, till that changes who is the qb is not gong to make a difference, ill on field discipline I addressed, a chain is only as strong as It's weakest link, weakest link-discipline by 10 to 1 margin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernMan Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Name a team that has won a superbowl without a top tier QB! It never happens. * A couple of ways to get that elite QB: have the worst record and an early 1st round pick in a year when there's a Manning, Luck, etc sure thing QB available, then give them a year or two of seasoning. Rarely is there a sure thing. Identify and draft a hidden gem in the later rounds - Wilson, Brady Find a FA or trade from a team lucky enough to have two good QBs, or find one that's still viable but in the twilight of their career. Another infrequent occurance is the 'shooting star' season where a player has one great year but never maintains that level the rest of their career - think Mark Rypien, 1992. The last 2 aren't anything you can look to for long term success. * y'all said to yourself "Trent Dilfer".... didn't you? :-) That was kind of the point. Only once in how many years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Matt Moore - Mia Mark Sanchez - Phi Jay Clocker - Ten Michael Vick - NJJ Matt Hasselbeck - Ind Christian Ponder - Min Matt Flynn - GB Blaine Gabbert - SF Shaun Hill - StL Jason Campbell - Cin Tarvaris Jackson - Sea Brian Hoyer - Cle Ryan Mallet - Hou Tyrod Taylor - Bal Scott Tolzien - GB TJ Yates - Atl Jimmy Clausen - Chi Joe Webb - Car Luke McCown - NO Colt McCoy - Was Dan Orlovsky - Det Kellen Moore - Det Austin Davis - StL Josh Johnson - SF Matt Blanchard - Car Matt Simms - NJJ Ryan Lindley - Ari Thaddeus Lewis - Hou Chester Stewart - Bal GJ Kinnie - NJJ Kyle Newhall-Caballero - Oak Tyler Hansen - Cin Hell no May be Perhaps one of the strike-out guys is a future HOF'er waiting for his chance. But I don't know his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braedenstearns Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Trade from Newton. With how good our WR's are, he would be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Trade from Newton. With how good our WR's are, he would be good. I like Newton but I do not love Newton. He's regressed this year and not playing good football. He has played well in his early career but I do not think he is going to be the QB to win multiple championships or dominate like many thought. His struggles are simple, footwork (which improved last year and fell apart this year), making the reads and keeping eyes down field. He has seemingly been scared to throw the ball this year and instead takes off. He is not truly a running QB, but he is a QB who can run. I watch a lot of his games and often wonder how he misses guys that are wide open 20 yards down field when he pulls it back and runs it for 10 yards and is forgiven. Newton is not the QB we need in Buffalo because we do not have the QB coach, OC or HC able to work with him. Ken Dorsey had been doing an amazing job with him last year and has struggled this year. Hell no May be Perhaps one of the strike-out guys is a future HOF'er waiting for his chance. But I don't know his name. I very much like Moore and wanted him to come to Buffalo back when he was a FA. Fitzpatrick and Moore would have been a good lineup at QB and when it came time to dump one, the other or Fitz Moore would be a good serviceable backup. A win at all costs type who is quick on his feet and plays smart football, Moore is a QB who will have a 15 year career in this league as a backup/journeyman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I like Newton but I do not love Newton. He's regressed this year and not playing good football. He has played well in his early career but I do not think he is going to be the QB to win multiple championships or dominate like many thought. His struggles are simple, footwork (which improved last year and fell apart this year), making the reads and keeping eyes down field. He has seemingly been scared to throw the ball this year and instead takes off. He is not truly a running QB, but he is a QB who can run. I watch a lot of his games and often wonder how he misses guys that are wide open 20 yards down field when he pulls it back and runs it for 10 yards and is forgiven. Newton is not the QB we need in Buffalo because we do not have the QB coach, OC or HC able to work with him. Ken Dorsey had been doing an amazing job with him last year and has struggled this year. I very much like Moore and wanted him to come to Buffalo back when he was a FA. Fitzpatrick and Moore would have been a good lineup at QB and when it came time to dump one, the other or Fitz Moore would be a good serviceable backup. A win at all costs type who is quick on his feet and plays smart football, Moore is a QB who will have a 15 year career in this league as a backup/journeyman. Cam doesn't do himself a lot of favors and I certainly don't condone his behavior that led to the brawl in the endzone (see my assertions re: Johnson, Stevie). That said, he's regressed tremendously this year, but we'd be foolish if we didn't factor the utter black hole they have both at receiver AND running back. The man has virtually zero weapons out there. Also, regarding Moore and the 2015 QB in general: I think at this point, the goal should be to acquire a top-15 QB. Perhaps EJ could be that guy, I don't know. But a top 15 QB with this defense, and we're easily a 10-11 win team even this year with our difficult schedule. Based on the 2014 outcomes, next year's schedule should be much easier (although it rarely plays out that way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Cam doesn't do himself a lot of favors and I certainly don't condone his behavior that led to the brawl in the endzone (see my assertions re: Johnson, Stevie). That said, he's regressed tremendously this year, but we'd be foolish if we didn't factor the utter black hole they have both at receiver AND running back. The man has virtually zero weapons out there. Also, regarding Moore and the 2015 QB in general: I think at this point, the goal should be to acquire a top-15 QB. Perhaps EJ could be that guy, I don't know. But a top 15 QB with this defense, and we're easily a 10-11 win team even this year with our difficult schedule. Based on the 2014 outcomes, next year's schedule should be much easier (although it rarely plays out that way). And that's the failure of this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Also, regarding Moore and the 2015 QB in general: I think at this point, the goal should be to acquire a top-15 QB. Perhaps EJ could be that guy, I don't know. But a top 15 QB with this defense, and we're easily a 10-11 win team even this year with our difficult schedule. Based on the 2014 outcomes, next year's schedule should be much easier (although it rarely plays out that way). Glad you brought this up. Who is a top 15 QB in this league? Cam Newton is on that list but so is Eli Manning and Tony Romo, arguably ahead of Newton. Neither of those two are showing they make a difference on teams as good or better then Buffalo. The NFL may be a bunch of the haves and have nots but when you do HAVE a QB you are not promised a spot at the table come playoffs. Ben Roethlisberger, Flacco, Dalton are in the AFCN and 3 QB's considered better then what we have and it is likely 2 of them will be at home this January. It could even be all three at home should Cleveland get a miracle. It takes a little bit more then a great QB. There has to be some sort of harmony between that QB, the scheme and the team. There are only 2 or 3 QB's that I would love to see in Buffalo that are in this league. Only 2 or 3 QB's who I know would elevate us to playoffs tomorrow: Roethlisberger, Rodgers and maybe Philip Rivers. I'd take Russ Wilson or Matt Ryan tomorrow but I do not think they'd be able to make up for the deficits on this team quickly enough to get us the W's. And that's the failure of this season. So, if EJ comes in this season and pulls of wins in Oakland and NE are we going to change our tune and have hopes this off season? QB is one of two positions on the roster (the other OL) where you must make an effort to improve your roster every year, even if it is backups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Glad you brought this up. Who is a top 15 QB in this league? Cam Newton is on that list but so is Eli Manning and Tony Romo, arguably ahead of Newton. Neither of those two are showing they make a difference on teams as good or better then Buffalo. The NFL may be a bunch of the haves and have nots but when you do HAVE a QB you are not promised a spot at the table come playoffs. Ben Roethlisberger, Flacco, Dalton are in the AFCN and 3 QB's considered better then what we have and it is likely 2 of them will be at home this January. It could even be all three at home should Cleveland get a miracle. It takes a little bit more then a great QB. There has to be some sort of harmony between that QB, the scheme and the team. There are only 2 or 3 QB's that I would love to see in Buffalo that are in this league. Only 2 or 3 QB's who I know would elevate us to playoffs tomorrow: Roethlisberger, Rodgers and maybe Philip Rivers. I'd take Russ Wilson or Matt Ryan tomorrow but I do not think they'd be able to make up for the deficits on this team quickly enough to get us the W's. So, if EJ comes in this season and pulls of wins in Oakland and NE are we going to change our tune and have hopes this off season? QB is one of two positions on the roster (the other OL) where you must make an effort to improve your roster every year, even if it is backups. IF we were 7-6 and EJ showed growth throughout the season, I'd feel a million times better about everything. Also, if he was awful, then it would be clear to move on. But to say definitely one way or the other after 14 starts which matchup to a lot of other young QBs, you can't. And I get this if it was EJ learning under Brett Farve, like Rodgers did. But he got benched for Orton, who is playing liek his average at best self. We learned very little from this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 The Bills are not signing any of those guys as long as Orton & Manuel are on the roster. They're already paying a lot for Orton, and they won't spend $3 million for third string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Glad you brought this up. Who is a top 15 QB in this league? Cam Newton is on that list but so is Eli Manning and Tony Romo, arguably ahead of Newton. Neither of those two are showing they make a difference on teams as good or better then Buffalo. The NFL may be a bunch of the haves and have nots but when you do HAVE a QB you are not promised a spot at the table come playoffs. Ben Roethlisberger, Flacco, Dalton are in the AFCN and 3 QB's considered better then what we have and it is likely 2 of them will be at home this January. It could even be all three at home should Cleveland get a miracle. It takes a little bit more then a great QB. There has to be some sort of harmony between that QB, the scheme and the team. There are only 2 or 3 QB's that I would love to see in Buffalo that are in this league. Only 2 or 3 QB's who I know would elevate us to playoffs tomorrow: Roethlisberger, Rodgers and maybe Philip Rivers. I'd take Russ Wilson or Matt Ryan tomorrow but I do not think they'd be able to make up for the deficits on this team quickly enough to get us the W's. So, if EJ comes in this season and pulls of wins in Oakland and NE are we going to change our tune and have hopes this off season? QB is one of two positions on the roster (the other OL) where you must make an effort to improve your roster every year, even if it is backups. I fervently disagree. I've listed out all the starting QB's several times now over the past few weeks (mostly to demonstrate that the FIRE HACKETT NOW mob is a bit hasty given our deficiencies at the most important position). And that's where we apparently diverge, because I believe QB is our most severe deficiency right now. I believe that we're sitting at 8 wins (at worst) if any of the top-15 QB's were on our roster. I include among that list: Brady Rodgers Brees Luck Rivers Big Ben Flacco Wilson Romo Manning Manning Newton Dalton Stafford Ryan And that's the failure of this season. Yes. You've made it very clear these last few months that you'd have rather this season be a trial by fire for EJ Manuel, in spite of what the other 21 starters might be capable of. My guess: if we had never benched EJ in the first place, we'd be 5-8 and in the exact same position we are right now re: QB, with the only difference being the confidence to rule EJ out. I know that you believe keeping EJ around would have produced a different outcome, and you're welcome to be butt hurt over the Bills not having that clarity, but, oh well. We're still in the mix heading into week 15. I think that was the goal of the organization this year, whether you like it or not. And quite frankly, I'm fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 IF we were 7-6 and EJ showed growth throughout the season, I'd feel a million times better about everything. Also, if he was awful, then it would be clear to move on. But to say definitely one way or the other after 14 starts which matchup to a lot of other young QBs, you can't. And I get this if it was EJ learning under Brett Farve, like Rodgers did. But he got benched for Orton, who is playing liek his average at best self. We learned very little from this season. We have a young OL who has improved. We have a youthful core unit of WR's and just need to replace Hogan. We have found out that Fred Jackson is mortal and CJ Spiller is CJ Spiller, while Anthony Dixon is a nice addition we have many questions about Bryce Brown still. We have found out a lot. What is amazing is that week in and week out Orton has not been the weakest link on offense. I could easily argue that Watkins was weaker then Orton last week with the drops. Or that Hogan has been a glaring weakness the last three weeks. That Glenn was a weak spot a few weeks back. Orton has been treading water just over the last few weakest links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 IF we were 7-6 and EJ showed growth throughout the season, I'd feel a million times better about everything. Also, if he was awful, then it would be clear to move on. But to say definitely one way or the other after 14 starts which matchup to a lot of other young QBs, you can't. And I get this if it was EJ learning under Brett Farve, like Rodgers did. But he got benched for Orton, who is playing liek his average at best self. We learned very little from this season. I'm not saying Orton is some kinda great QB, but to EJ has learned nothing under him is to completely ignore a week's worth of locker room interviews immediately after the switch was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallskiWallski83 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 what about RG3? honestly I think the Bills are going to be content to head into 2015 with an open competition between Orton, Manuel and a 3rd round rookie QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I fervently disagree. I've listed out all the starting QB's several times now over the past few weeks (mostly to demonstrate that the FIRE HACKETT NOW mob is a bit hasty given our deficiencies at the most important position). And that's where we apparently diverge, because I believe QB is our most severe deficiency right now. I believe that we're sitting at 8 wins (at worst) if any of the top-15 QB's were on our roster. I include among that list: Brady Rodgers Brees Luck Rivers Big Ben Flacco Wilson Romo Manning Manning Newton Dalton Stafford Ryan Yes. You've made it very clear these last few months that you'd have rather this season be a trial by fire for EJ Manuel, in spite of what the other 21 starters might be capable of. My guess: if we had never benched EJ in the first place, we'd be 5-8 and in the exact same position we are right now re: QB, with the only difference being the confidence to rule EJ out. I know that you believe keeping EJ around would have produced a different outcome, and you're welcome to be butt hurt over the Bills not having that clarity, but, oh well. We're still in the mix heading into week 15. I think that was the goal of the organization this year, whether you like it or not. And quite frankly, I'm fine with that. So EJ could go 2-2 with wins over the Dolphins and a road win over the Bears (a tough game at the time) and he'd just tank the rest of the season? EJ had a terrible game against the Jets last year and then had a good one. The guy bounces back pretty good. We scored at least 1 td in every EJ start this year. We have scored 17 or less in 5 of Orton's starts (and 5 out of 7 if you take away the Jets games). Not exactly hard production to replace. And the point is we have no idea. I know what Orton can do and he is doing exactly what he has done for his whole career. All your points about the offensive coaching staff I might support if they stuck with EJ. But they showed no backbone and bailed for a veteran upgrade. And he's average on his best days. That's on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Basically we're screwed until we can draft AND develop a successful QB. We may be able to draft a guy (EJ still is qualified on paper), but in no way can our joke of a coaching staff develop a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 So EJ could go 2-2 with wins over the Dolphins and a road win over the Bears (a tough game at the time) and he'd just tank the rest of the season? I said 5-8. I never said "tank." Quit it with the hyperbole ****. He would have lost two of the games Orton won. Detroit and Minnesota. Boom, there we go, moving on. Re: Bears game, they've now shown themselves to be a woefully inadequate team. Other than to serve your own point, I'm not sure how that game can be construed as a "tough game at the time." But most importantly, EJ threw for a whopping 173 yards in that game (about his average, but fewer than any Orton's had since taking over), I'm not sure he's the reason we won, but one could easily say he's the reason we won so close. Re: Dolphins game, there was no way Miami was going to win that game. That was right after the Pegula's took over, the Ralph was on fire and yet we still only scored one offensive touch down. EJ had a terrible game against the Jets last year and then had a good one. The guy bounces back pretty good. Actually he "bounced back" the following week with an all-world 10-22 for 167 yards one TD and a two picks performance against Baltimore, albeit in a win. We scored at least 1 td in every EJ start this year. We have scored 17 or less in 5 of Orton's starts (and 5 out of 7 if you take away the Jets games). Not exactly hard production to replace. Oh jesus. You can't be serious with this comparison. This is a stretch, even for you. And the point is we have no idea. I know what Orton can do and he is doing exactly what he has done for his whole career. All your points about the offensive coaching staff I might support if they stuck with EJ. But they showed no backbone and bailed for a veteran upgrade. And he's average on his best days. That's on them. They bailed for a guy they thought gave them a better chance to win. You're going under with the band insisting that Orton doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 [/size] I said 5-8. I never said "tank." Quit it with the hyperbole ****. He would have lost two of the games Orton won. Detroit and Minnesota. Boom, there we go, moving on. Re: Bears game, they've now shown themselves to be a woefully inadequate team. Other than to serve your own point, I'm not sure how that game can be construed as a "tough game at the time." But most importantly, EJ threw for a whopping 173 yards in that game (about his average, but fewer than any Orton's had since taking over), I'm not sure he's the reason we won, but one could easily say he's the reason we won so close. Re: Dolphins game, there was no way Miami was going to win that game. That was right after the Pegula's took over, the Ralph was on fire and yet we still only scored one offensive touch down. Actually he "bounced back" the following week with an all-world 10-22 for 167 yards one TD and a two picks performance against Baltimore, albeit in a win. Oh jesus. You can't be serious with this comparison. This is a stretch, even for you. They bailed for a guy they thought gave them a better chance to win. You're going under with the band insisting that Orton doesn't. Your boys drafted a guy in the 1st round and gave him Hackett as an OC and QB coach. They bailed on him for Orton and not surprisingly, the offense has gotten worse. but keep defending below average coaches. One year, you're finally be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Your boys drafted a guy in the 1st round and gave him Hackett as an OC and QB coach. They bailed on him for Orton and not surprisingly, the offense has gotten worse. but keep defending below average coaches. One year, you're finally be right. I guess once all your points are refuted, you gotta look for other angles. So your gripe now is with personnel? But real quick: on what !@#$ing planet has the offense gotten worse? Come on, dude. The offense produces more yards and points per game in 2014. And more under Orton than under Manuel. What the !@#$ are you talking about? But as for allegedly ruining EJ, you must have been the lone Bills, nay, NFL fan who thought EJ was game-ready the moment they traded down to get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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