boyst Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I am ok with this. It is medical waste and unfortunate. Then again, I'm jaded as I've dealt with many fetsus'. But it is green to practice this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 This is wrong on so many levels in my opinion. The perpetual crux of the matter remains...what is a fetus? I think it's life. Hospitals don't consider deceased adults medical waste or, worse yet, fuel. Hence, I find this nauseating. I have 10 yr old nephews born at 24 weeks who could have been discarded as 'fetuses.' I offer them as proof of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 This is wrong on so many levels in my opinion. The perpetual crux of the matter remains...what is a fetus? I think it's life. Hospitals don't consider deceased adults medical waste or, worse yet, fuel. Hence, I find this nauseating. I have 10 yr old nephews born at 24 weeks who could have been discarded as 'fetuses.' I offer them as proof of life. Proof of life with a lot of help for the other 16 weeks. I am not disagreeing with you. And if you don't think it is life and think it is just a body part, then it becomes a burned amputated arm or leg or removed gall bladder. Some people regard it as just another body part until it is self-sustaining outside the womb. Qualify and personify it as life and the anti-abortionists can push things back to conception (which I don't believe). I really don't care where people stand on this. All I know is not to get innvolved... Or even worse, pass laws that get innvolved in this type of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 This is wrong on so many levels in my opinion. The perpetual crux of the matter remains...what is a fetus? I think it's life. Hospitals don't consider deceased adults medical waste or, worse yet, fuel. Hence, I find this nauseating. I have 10 yr old nephews born at 24 weeks who could have been discarded as 'fetuses.' I offer them as proof of life. that's why I am fine with it. This has to be sensationalized. Not too get murky personal my sister had twins, one was still born after XYZ weeks that due to law made the child considered a fetus and was beyond the abortion date. Therefore it was deemed she would have to release the remains - literally, 3 broken up pieces no bigger then to fit in your palm, to a funeral home. It could not be considered waste. This story - what are they really talking about? A few bad eggs that are just stupid? Its not SOP, nor is it practical, and we are not sure if they literally rip out the dead child and throw it in a fire. I'd bet they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) Proof of life with a lot of help for the other 16 weeks. I am not disagreeing with you. And if you don't think it is life and think it is just a body part, then it becomes a burned amputated arm or leg or removed gall bladder. Some people regard it as just another body part until it is self-sustaining outside the womb. Qualify and personify it as life and the anti-abortionists can push things back to conception (which I don't believe). I really don't care where people stand on this. All I know is not to get innvolved... Or even worse, pass laws that get innvolved in this type of choice. With respect to your statements... #1 Lots of help obviously. The paradox here is that we readily care for the elderly demented folks who need 'lots of help' as well. In addition, my nephews could have been snuffed out at that point, in many scenarios, with no 'repercussions.' It's hard for me to reconcile that as not being 'alive' when I see them running around ten years later. #2 I agree with your statement. I, however, disagree with that chosen belief. #3 Show me a full term child that is 'self sustaining' outside the womb. #4 I don't have to 'qualify' it as anything. Nor do you. It's what I believe...and what you believe. #5 I disagree. They have no voice, but they need one. Abortion rights/ Life rights is an endless debate and I don't want to hijack this thread down a dead end street. I just meant to point out that the concept of what a 'fetus' is remains the core of this issue...and I recognize that my views are not universal. This has to be sensationalized. I'd bet they don't. You may be right. But those two statements don't exactly scream of certainty. Regardless, I'm truly sorry to hear you sister had to go through that. Edited March 25, 2014 by BillsFanM.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 With respect to your statements... #1 Lots of help obviously. The paradox here is that we readily care for the elderly demented folks who need 'lots of help' as well. In addition, my nephews could have been snuffed out at that point, in many scenarios, with no 'repercussions.' It's hard for me to reconcile that as not being 'alive' when I see them running around ten years later. #2 I agree with your statement. I, however, disagree with that chosen belief. #3 Show me a full term child that is 'self sustaining' outside the womb. #4 I don't have to 'qualify' it as anything. Nor do you. It's what I believe...and what you believe. #5 I disagree. They have no voice, but they need one. Abortion rights/ Life rights is an endless debate and I don't want to hijack this thread down a dead end street. I just meant to point out that the concept of what a 'fetus' is remains the core of this issue...and I recognize that my views are not universal. You're wasting your time. Exiled doesn't have thoughts of his own. He just poses other peoples' thoughts (i.e. 'some people say...'), and then when someone like you comes along and counters the argument, he usually responds with "That's not my argument. That's what other people say." That is usually followed by something that sounds like "gurglesnort" before he disappears for a couple of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 With respect to your statements... #1 Lots of help obviously. The paradox here is that we readily care for the elderly demented folks who need 'lots of help' as well. In addition, my nephews could have been snuffed out at that point, in many scenarios, with no 'repercussions.' It's hard for me to reconcile that as not being 'alive' when I see them running around ten years later. #2 I agree with your statement. I, however, disagree with that chosen belief. #3 Show me a full term child that is 'self sustaining' outside the womb. #4 I don't have to 'qualify' it as anything. Nor do you. It's what I believe...and what you believe. #5 I disagree. They have no voice, but they need one. Abortion rights/ Life rights is an endless debate and I don't want to hijack this thread down a dead end street. I just meant to point out that the concept of what a 'fetus' is remains the core of this issue...and I recognize that my views are not universal. You may be right. But those two statements don't exactly scream of certainty. Regardless, I'm truly sorry to hear you sister had to go through that. Me, too. I know we all have our respective professions, though. And being in farming has changed my life. Seeing things grow up and then be killed or die for various reasons makes you look at life differently. Finding calves that never had a chance laying in a pasture or pulling one out that never had a chance. Yeah, it is a bovine, I get it. But, I value all life. It still gets me every time. And it is gross, disturbing and painful. I had a birthing complication once. I ended up pulling a calf with a leg turned back. I couldn't get it to it in time and spent 90 minutes trying to pull the calf, shoulders deep. I finally get it to have a 80# innocent calf covered in good fall on me. It sucks. Not to make it a LAMP, but I wanted to let some of ya'll know why I am the way I am some times with regard to life and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 With respect to your statements... #1 Lots of help obviously. The paradox here is that we readily care for the elderly demented folks who need 'lots of help' as well. In addition, my nephews could have been snuffed out at that point, in many scenarios, with no 'repercussions.' It's hard for me to reconcile that as not being 'alive' when I see them running around ten years later. #2 I agree with your statement. I, however, disagree with that chosen belief. #3 Show me a full term child that is 'self sustaining' outside the womb. #4 I don't have to 'qualify' it as anything. Nor do you. It's what I believe...and what you believe. #5 I disagree. They have no voice, but they need one. Abortion rights/ Life rights is an endless debate and I don't want to hijack this thread down a dead end street. I just meant to point out that the concept of what a 'fetus' is remains the core of this issue...and I recognize that my views are not universal. You may be right. But those two statements don't exactly scream of certainty. Regardless, I'm truly sorry to hear you sister had to go through that. We could discuss abortion forever here and it won't change the law. I'm personally against it but don't pretend to know what is right or moral for others. I also know that my stance on abortion is easier than a female's stance. I was sad for the fetuses and what could have been. I was also sad that it appears no opportunities were given for the parents to decide what to do with the fetuses. I was appalled at the final solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 We could discuss abortion forever here and it won't change the law. I'm personally against it but don't pretend to know what is right or moral for others. I also know that my stance on abortion is easier than a female's stance. I was sad for the fetuses and what could have been. I was also sad that it appears no opportunities were given for the parents to decide what to do with the fetuses. I was appalled at the final solution. Would you agree, at the very least - or anyone else - that it is not our place to debate it for two reasons We are not the fetus. We are not women. Both of those default my belief to say I am pro choice because I am not meant to choose. Even disirregardless I cannot fathom the idea of forcing a child to an unwilling parent and the sad results of the life that would be created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Would you agree, at the very least - or anyone else - that it is not our place to debate it for two reasons We are not the fetus. We are not women. Both of those default my belief to say I am pro choice because I am not meant to choose. Even disirregardless I cannot fathom the idea of forcing a child to an unwilling parent and the sad results of the life that would be created. Isn't that basically what I just said without the most amazing spelling of the word "regardless" that I've ever seen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Me, too. I know we all have our respective professions, though. Very true and I understand your sentiment. To use the same framework for thought....I've basically been forced to be in an operating room setting during several abortions. Forced is a strong word but not too many 3rd year med students are going to tell an attending doc 'what you're doing is wrong.' I eventually spoke my mind and I'm glad I did but not before I saw 'too much.' I'll spare the details but my experiences, if not life/philosophy changing, certainly reinforced my own personal views. We could discuss abortion forever here and it won't change the law. I'm personally against it but don't pretend to know what is right or moral for others. I also know that my stance on abortion is easier than a female's stance. I was sad for the fetuses and what could have been. I was also sad that it appears no opportunities were given for the parents to decide what to do with the fetuses. I was appalled at the final solution. As I said above, I'm not 'pretending' my views are universal. I was merely pointing out the true crux of this issue. As an aside, I've almost all but given up ever considering 'moral' issues in voting. It's all red meat for both parties and nothing ever changes. I'll enact support in situations where I can but I, like you, recognize the laws aren't changing anytime soon. Would you agree, at the very least - or anyone else - that it is not our place to debate it for two reasons We are not the fetus. We are not women. Both of those default my belief to say I am pro choice because I am not meant to choose. Even disirregardless I cannot fathom the idea of forcing a child to an unwilling parent and the sad results of the life that would be created. I'll disagree. On the converse....does a father have no rights? Does the fetus have a voice? Is the mother 'terminated?' Endless debate indeed. I appreciate your views but I don't share them. It's trite to say it but for me the issue isn't 'pro-choice.' It's life or death. I don't get involved in too much of the 'debates' here but I like a lot of your posts jboyst. Hopefully no offense taken. we just view it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Isn't that basically what I just said without the most amazing spelling of the word "regardless" that I've ever seen? disirregardlessly of what you'd said above my post and that I had quoted I was putting it simpler with out the need of morals. They're too ambiguous. Very true and I understand your sentiment. To use the same framework for thought....I've basically been forced to be in an operating room setting during several abortions. Forced is a strong word but not too many 3rd year med students are going to tell an attending doc 'what you're doing is wrong.' I eventually spoke my mind and I'm glad I did but not before I saw 'too much.' I'll spare the details but my experiences, if not life/philosophy changing, certainly reinforced my own personal views. I am sorry for your experience in that I know at the time it was painful. I am appreciate, though, that it allowed you to grow as a person. I'll disagree. On the converse....does a father have no rights? Does the fetus have a voice? Is the mother 'terminated?' Endless debate indeed. I appreciate your views but I don't share them. It's trite to say it but for me the issue isn't 'pro-choice.' It's life or death. I don't get involved in too much of the 'debates' here but I like a lot of your posts jboyst. Hopefully no offense taken. we just view it differently. Oh, trust me. I am all about fatherly rights but I am also a realist. Too many crap dads out there want rights that they simply do not deserve. A dad demanding the child be birthed and him being the sole parent and the only one obligated to rear it would be a different situation. Few men could handle that responsibility. We're just not wired to be mothers. Unfortunately, no. The fetus doesn't have a voice. The only voice the fetus would have amounts to the adults making the decision and I am pretty sure none of them would have rather had their mother get an abortion. We all choose life, but figuratively and metaphorically. However, as a basic principle we must do what is best for the species. That outcome is debatable. Unless we're talking Sarah Conner there is no need to terminate her. And, I never take offense to anything on here or anywhere. No apologies needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Unless we're talking Sarah Conner there is no need to terminate her. That was a solid reference. As you, myself and 3rd have alluded...this can be circular and challenging as a topic. To borrow your movie.....I'm gonna get some zzzz's....but "I'll be back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdborn Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If my body can be useful to someone once I've let it fall to the ground .... have it. eat it, use it for fuel. don't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 If my body can be useful to someone once I've let it fall to the ground .... have it. eat it, use it for fuel. don't care Well, you've certainly added something pertinent to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If my body can be useful to someone once I've let it fall to the ground .... have it. eat it, use it for fuel. don't care Exactly... Way too much emotion in this debate. Who would think the so-called non-emotional crowd (conservatives) would be so emotional? It never ceases to amaze me their hypocrisy by going against their core beliefs and wanting to pass laws climbing into a woman's womb. Conservatives... They spend 9 months trying to get out and then a whole lifetime wanting to climb right back in. Go figure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdborn Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Well, you've certainly added something pertinent to the conversation. Thank you so much, sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Exactly... Way too much emotion in this debate. Who would think the so-called non-emotional crowd (conservatives) would be so emotional? It never ceases to amaze me their hypocrisy by going against their core beliefs and wanting to pass laws climbing into a woman's womb. Conservatives... They spend 9 months trying to get out and then a whole lifetime wanting to climb right back in. Go figure! Conservatives are non-emotional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Conservatives are non-emotional? "so-called". They do like to find fault with liberal emotions. Again... Way too much emotion in this story, most likely sensationalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Exactly... Way too much emotion in this debate. Who would think the so-called non-emotional crowd (conservatives) would be so emotional? It never ceases to amaze me their hypocrisy by going against their core beliefs and wanting to pass laws climbing into a woman's womb. Conservatives... They spend 9 months trying to get out and then a whole lifetime wanting to climb right back in. Go figure! As usual, nobody knows what you are talking about, including you. Who is talking here about passing laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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