thewildrabbit Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Doesn't matter how good you make the line, you are still struggling to win more than 8 or 9 games without a very good QB unless you can put all pros and pro bowlers at virtually every other position than QB like the Ravens did... In the 2000's they had one O linemen who made the pro bowl in LT Jonathan Ogden. In 2000 they won the SB with one pro bowler on offense, Odgen. In all those years of the 2000's no other Raven O linemen went to the PB. TE Shannon Sharpe made the pro bowl in 2001, and they went 10-6. TE Todd Heap made the pro bowl in 2002 they went 7-9 and 10-6 in 2003. RB Jamaal Lewis also made the pro bowl in 2003. This tells you that even having a pro bowl TE in Todd Heap doesn't mean the difference between just the playoffs and super bowl. In 2011 the Ravens had FB Vonta Leach,both gaurds LG Ben Grubbs, RG Marshall Yanda make the pro bowl....oh so the guard position isn't important....riiight! in 2012 the SB year the only offensive players to make the PB were the same FB and G, Yanda. Jeez, apparently the Ravens think its important to have quality players at the guard position. They even wasted a first round pick on a guard in Ben Grubbs...such losers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 In the 2000's they had one O linemen who made the pro bowl in LT Jonathan Ogden. In 2000 they won the SB with one pro bowler on offense, Odgen. In all those years of the 2000's no other Raven O linemen went to the PB. TE Shannon Sharpe made the pro bowl in 2001, and they went 10-6. TE Todd Heap made the pro bowl in 2002 they went 7-9 and 10-6 in 2003. RB Jamaal Lewis also made the pro bowl in 2003. This tells you that even having a pro bowl TE in Todd Heap doesn't mean the difference between just the playoffs and super bowl. In 2011 the Ravens had FB Vonta Leach,both gaurds LG Ben Grubbs, RG Marshall Yanda make the pro bowl....oh so the guard position isn't important....riiight! in 2012 the SB year the only offensive players to make the PB were the same FB and G, Yanda. Jeez, apparently the Ravens think its important to have quality players at the guard position. They even wasted a first round pick on a guard in Ben Grubbs...such losers How many did the have on defense? I think I'd rather take my chances with a great QB versus accumulating great talent at other positions, in this case mostly defensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 How many did the have on defense? I think I'd rather take my chances with a great QB versus accumulating great talent at other positions, in this case mostly defensive... Did you read this thread? Because it looks like over the past decade this franchise has tried that same philosophy with disastrous results. Even when they had a #1 overall at QB they chose to try and change him rather then give him better protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) Did you read this thread? Because it looks like over the past decade this franchise has tried that same philosophy with disastrous results. Even when they had a #1 overall at QB they chose to try and change him rather then give him better protection. It's irrelevant how long they've tried it, unless they go back and change the rules to where the passing game doesn't have a huge built in rule advantage with the way the defense can't touch them downfield like they used to, until you get a very good to great QB you aren't going anywhere other than a best case scenario wild card playoff berth and first round exit. The last QB they drafted higher than Manuel was Jim Kelly...if you are talking about Losman his problem wasn't protection, he had no pocket awareness and just wasn't very good except at throwing the ball deep to Evans. I don't think I've ever seen a QB take more blindside hits where he literally had no idea the defender was coming at him than Losman... Edited November 30, 2013 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 How did a thread that is so obviously about the OL become a thread about the QB? The OL needs work. Whether QB is great or not, the OL needs work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 How did a thread that is so obviously about the OL become a thread about the QB? The OL needs work. Whether QB is great or not, the OL needs work. + 1 This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) How did a thread that is so obviously about the OL become a thread about the QB? The OL needs work. Whether QB is great or not, the OL needs work. Obviously it has to work, but I think it needs to work at a level far lower than what most think when your QB is really good...look at how awful GB OLine looked without Rodgers...with Rodgers they are a playoff team, without a team that gains 75 total yards, can't run the ball, gives up seven sacks and might be a 3 or 4 win team, ala the Colts when Manning went down before Luck... The QB can cover up a lot more weaknesses than a team with lots of good players can cover up for a weak QB... Big plays downfield and the fear of giving up big plays downfield are what the difference is...Rodgers gets sacked a lot behind that line but he also makes teams pay downfield Edited November 30, 2013 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) Obviously it has to work, but I think it needs to work at a level far lower than what most think when your QB is really good...look at how awful GB OLine looked without Rodgers...with Rodgers they are a playoff team, without a team that gains 75 total yards, can't run the ball, gives up seven sacks and might be a 3 or 4 win team, ala the Colts when Manning went down before Luck... The QB can cover up a lot more weaknesses than a team with lots of good players can cover up for a weak QB... Big plays downfield and the fear of giving up big plays downfield are what the difference is... I understand you. I did before as well. We have drafted our QB and hopefully he can turn things around. Right now we are simply turning our sights on what we consider a glaring need. Even with a great QB, you still want to run the ball as well. It pains me to see great talents like CJ and Fred going nowhere because the get hit for a loss immediately after a hand off. Yes, a great QB can disguise some deficiencies but that does not change the fact that the OL is not measuring up to expectations. Edited November 30, 2013 by Rockinon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) I understand you. I did before as well. We have drafted our QB and hopefully he can turn things around. Right now we are simply turning our sights on what we consider a glaring need. Even with a great QB, you still want to run the ball as well. It pains me to see great talents like CJ and Fred going nowhere because the get hit for a loss immediately after a hand off. Yes, a great QB can disguise some deficiencies but that does not change the fact that the OL is not measuring up to expectations. I think what we are seeing is defensive coordinators being determined that if they are going down its going to be because a rookie QB beat them not because they got burnt by our known very good to great backfield tandem. Until EJ can consistently make taking our RBs out of the game a worse option than letting him beat them by throwing downfield we are gonna see a lot more teams selling out to stop the run by playing one high safety and dropping a safety in the box giving them an 8 man front to try and run against...EJ did nothing to help by routinely throwing his deep balls out of bounds in the beginning of the year...why worry about that if the QB throws it out of bounds every time? Imho, the line isn't the biggest issue, the lack of fear of our passing game is...when EJ starts beating teams consistently it will open up the run game a lot... Edited November 30, 2013 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 It's irrelevant how long they've tried it, unless they go back and change the rules to where the passing game doesn't have a huge built in rule advantage with the way the defense can't touch them downfield like they used to, until you get a very good to great QB you aren't going anywhere other than a best case scenario wild card playoff berth and first round exit. The last QB they drafted higher than Manuel was Jim Kelly...if you are talking about Losman his problem wasn't protection, he had no pocket awareness and just wasn't very good except at throwing the ball deep to Evans. I don't think I've ever seen a QB take more blindside hits where he literally had no idea the defender was coming at him than Losman... I think its more then relevant considering how many defensive players this franchise has drafted the last 13 years to not even attaining more then one 9-7 season. If its relevant to the 2000-2012 Ravens, its more then relevant to the Bills. They just had a lousy scouting dept and made wrong choices. That lone winning 9-7 season was with QB Drew Bledsoe, as they had a top QB for 3 years. Then rather then draft or acquire players to protect him better they chose the wrong coarse of action in trying to change the QB's style of play. As I mentioned earlier they had a top defense, and a top offense in all areas that 2004 season, save pass protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Obviously it has to work, but I think it needs to work at a level far lower than what most think when your QB is really good...look at how awful GB OLine looked without Rodgers...with Rodgers they are a playoff team, without a team that gains 75 total yards, can't run the ball, gives up seven sacks and might be a 3 or 4 win team, ala the Colts when Manning went down before Luck... The QB can cover up a lot more weaknesses than a team with lots of good players can cover up for a weak QB... Big plays downfield and the fear of giving up big plays downfield are what the difference is...Rodgers gets sacked a lot behind that line but he also makes teams pay downfield Both those Colts and Packers teams you mention depended more on the QB then most other teams because of their passing schemes. The 2008 Patriots lost QB Tom Brady in the opening game and still went 11-5 with a QB that hadn't started a game since high school. Again you mention two QB's who have lower graded O lines with both Big Ben & Rodgers. Both of whom take a lot of sacks because of their chosen style of play. That is to float around in the pocket waiting for a receiver to break open, as that is a truly a daring style, and does result in more injuries. Those lines are actually better then they grade because of their QB's play. The Steelers have a PB center, the Packers had a PB LT for their SB run. A good offense can often hide a lot of QB faults. Take the 2008 Ravens with rookie Joe Flacco at QB with 592 attempts rushing vs 433 attempts passing. The team surrounded the QB with decent players and this allowed that rookie to ultimately develop into a SB winning QB. Bottom line is, build the foundation first IMO. That way you can give any QB you have a chance for success. If you draft the QB first you might just end up with a beaten down player seeing phantom sackers. (JP/ TE) But then, looking over the last 13 years the Bills have been reluctant to draft QB's, as well as O linemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I understand you. I did before as well. We have drafted our QB and hopefully he can turn things around. Right now we are simply turning our sights on what we consider a glaring need. Even with a great QB, you still want to run the ball as well. It pains me to see great talents like CJ and Fred going nowhere because the get hit for a loss immediately after a hand off. Yes, a great QB can disguise some deficiencies but that does not change the fact that the OL is not measuring up to expectations. I would also add, UNTIL you get a Rodgers, or a Luck, or another franschise type QB, build the lines first. A QB is just 1 pick, just like every other selection the Bills have made over the last decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheddar's Dad Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 How did a thread that is so obviously about the OL become a thread about the QB? The OL needs work. Whether QB is great or not, the OL needs work. A very excellent question when you're considering 1. how best to build the Bills into a championship team and, 2. Buffalo may have a very good QB in E.J. I started this thread with evidence that the best college coach in the country, who obviously knows how to build championship teams, spends significant resources to insure that his O-line remains dominant. I might also have added that Belichick spent two first round picks on Mankins and Solder and a second on Vollmer so he too obviously understands the importance of building a solid O-line. Yet the only response back from the lets draft something else crowd is, I don't care about that, I want my Mapo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 MMMMM!! Mapo. Used to eat that when I was a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) A very excellent question when you're considering 1. how best to build the Bills into a championship team and, 2. Buffalo may have a very good QB in E.J. I started this thread with evidence that the best college coach in the country, who obviously knows how to build championship teams, spends significant resources to insure that his O-line remains dominant. I might also have added that Belichick spent two first round picks on Mankins and Solder and a second on Vollmer so he too obviously understands the importance of building a solid O-line. The obvious response, which some have already made, is that the college game is very different from the NFL. Your premise seems to be that Alabama has a dominant O-line and the rest of the team is a step below, which I completely disagree with. A coach like Saban has no salary cap and is free to sign 4 or 5 blue-chip offensive linemen each year. Behind them, he lines up several big, fast talented RBs, a couple of dynamic WRs, and a functional (or maybe, in the case of McCarron, a little better than functional) QB. On the other side, a dominant defense. He virtually has his pick of the best players in the country at every position. That's not a criticism, it's just the way it is. It's not possible to build an NFL team the same way, due to the salary cap. A team can only afford to line up two or at the very most three first round pick, All-Pro-type offensive linemen. Yes, it's important to have a couple of those blue chip guys, but economics dictates that the other three will be free agents or late round picks who hopefully can play a little bit, guys like Pears and Urbik. At any rate, no one ever said a solid O-line is not important. The question is whether it should always be the TOP priority. I would argue that it's important to have a solid O-line, but I would rather have a top-flight QB and a dominant WR or two behind a decent to good O-line than an outstanding O-line and a mediocre QB. Edited November 30, 2013 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 A very excellent question when you're considering 1. how best to build the Bills into a championship team and, 2. Buffalo may have a very good QB in E.J. I started this thread with evidence that the best college coach in the country, who obviously knows how to build championship teams, spends significant resources to insure that his O-line remains dominant. I might also have added that Belichick spent two first round picks on Mankins and Solder and a second on Vollmer so he too obviously understands the importance of building a solid O-line. Yet the only response back from the lets draft something else crowd is, I don't care about that, I want my Mapo. 1) This isn't college, you can't just cherry pick the best players because you are a coaching God to most people down South and they want to go there 2) You are facing all NFL players each week in the NFL, many times in college you face a team with no NFL prospects and at most one with three or four NFL prospects out of 22 starters...odds are if you have assembled a good offensive line in college you are going to be playing against a majority of players that aren't going pro 3) Rules don't favor the passing game in college to the degree they favor it in the NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieG Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I think Stony's saying that stockpiling talent in the NFL is different than stockpiling talent in the NCAA. Drafting and recruiting are two very different animals. NFL teams are not going to spend every high draft pick on O-linemen. Let me add this thought, seeing as this topic seems to have spun off from a few other topics: Who would people rather add to the Bills present roster? 1) All Pro guard Logan Mankins who was drafted 32nd overall by New England 2) All Pro tight end Rob Gronkowski who was drafted 42 overall by New England This is a fair and unbiased question that relates to your subject. I'm not for style over substance. I love winning the trenches. I said in another thread that I like that the Bills have a bias towards running "a bit too much" as opposed to not enough. But I believe that having Gronk would have a much greater effect on team success than having Mankins. JMO. Except you are asking the wrong question(s).... Would you rather have Gronk or a DT with a bad back ...because you decided to switch to a 3-4 defense and just had to have a NT.? Would you rather have a QB or 432 DB's? This is a team that hasn't had a QB since Kelly retired..but has went 9 years on drafting a QB in the first round ...because there always seemed to be some DB that was a higher priority. We could have had a kick ass Oline AND a QB, and probably a pro bowl TE. But what's in the past is in the past... Good teams...Balt., NE, NO, and now Seattle and SF, seem to invest in their OL...and don't take the attittude of "eh, you can get OL anywhere". It isn't an either/or type situation. What Bama does isn't a huge secret, though I imagine tougher to implement than to conceptualize. While so many other college teams have went nuts with 4 and 5 wide spread offenses...with the hope of outscoring other teams... ...Bama cuts against the grain and builds through defense and their running game. They find DL big enough to not get pushed around. The find LB's strong enough to hold up to an OL but are still quick enough to cover; They build an OL strong enough to pound down a DL; They get running backs with enough size to break arm tackles at the 2nd level but are still quick enough to turn a corner; They will have at least one WR with speed enough to get deep and a QB good enough to get the ball downfield, but at the same time not create mistakes. Though their first option is to run...they have enough of a middle and deep passing game to keep a defense off balance..and exploit a mistake downfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Bandit; you think the Jets have a great OL???? Are you unaware of the problems the Jets have had at LG and the fact that Mangold's play at center has really dropped off this year?? Is there a pro-bowler on that Texan's line??? If you want to make a point you need better examples. Could it be that you could not find better examples because all teams with good to great O-lines have winning records??? BTW, watched Texas Tech and Amaro the other night. You described him as an adequate in line blocker. All that I saw from him is lining up in the slot and running to a spot where he could stand between a defender and a runner. That, my friend, is not blocking as defined by Gronk. Each of Houson and the Jets are fielding OLs with pro bowlers at LT and C. I'm not around my computer to go through stats (posting from the good ole iPhone), but the simple fact that each of the teams has had massive success running and protecting QBs the last 3 years says a lot to me. As for the teams with the best records, Seattle has lost all of one game and hasn't had either starting OT healthy yet. Wilson has been running for his life back there, and Lynch is pounding for every yard he gets. Denver is almost impossible to gauge with Peyton behind center; he's the master of making even lousy OLs look better. As for Amaro; he's not often used inline. When he is it's usually in goal-line scenarios, where I've seen him handle his assignments just fine for the most part. In the 2000's they had one O linemen who made the pro bowl in LT Jonathan Ogden. In 2000 they won the SB with one pro bowler on offense, Odgen. In all those years of the 2000's no other Raven O linemen went to the PB. TE Shannon Sharpe made the pro bowl in 2001, and they went 10-6. TE Todd Heap made the pro bowl in 2002 they went 7-9 and 10-6 in 2003. RB Jamaal Lewis also made the pro bowl in 2003. This tells you that even having a pro bowl TE in Todd Heap doesn't mean the difference between just the playoffs and super bowl. In 2011 the Ravens had FB Vonta Leach,both gaurds LG Ben Grubbs, RG Marshall Yanda make the pro bowl....oh so the guard position isn't important....riiight! in 2012 the SB year the only offensive players to make the PB were the same FB and G, Yanda. Jeez, apparently the Ravens think its important to have quality players at the guard position. They even wasted a first round pick on a guard in Ben Grubbs...such losers And yet that seemingly star-studded OL you're drooling over ashes Buffalo to the tune of 9 yards rushing in week 4 and got manhandled by the DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Each of Houson and the Jets are fielding OLs with pro bowlers at LT and C. I'm not around my computer to go through stats (posting from the good ole iPhone), but the simple fact that each of the teams has had massive success running and protecting QBs the last 3 years says a lot to me. As for the teams with the best records, Seattle has lost all of one game and hasn't had either starting OT healthy yet. Wilson has been running for his life back there, and Lynch is pounding for every yard he gets. Denver is almost impossible to gauge with Peyton behind center; he's the master of making even lousy OLs look better. As for Amaro; he's not often used inline. When he is it's usually in goal-line scenarios, where I've seen him handle his assignments just fine for the most part. And yet that seemingly star-studded OL you're drooling over ashes Buffalo to the tune of 9 yards rushing in week 4 and got manhandled by the DL. Yes it was so obvious they couldn't run the didn't even attempt a rush for two quarters, throwing the ball I believe 27 straight times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yes it was so obvious they couldn't run the didn't even attempt a rush for two quarters, throwing the ball I believe 27 straight times... Terrible gameplan notwithstanding, they got dominated up front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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