Mickey Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I am doing some genealogical research and ran across a relative who was born in 1919 and died "in service" in 1942 in World War II. His grave marker has the inscription: "Flt. Sergt. Pilot R.S.A.F." I haven't seen the actual inscription so perhaps the "R" is really a "U" but that is just a guess. I know that Sergeant Pilots were enlisted men trained as pilots which was something pretty new. Pilots in early 1941 had to have two years of college and they were made officers. In mid-1941 they changed that and the "Flying Sergeants" were started. They did much of the flying in conjunction with the invasion of Africa in November of 1942. The only Air Forces I can find with those initials are the Royal Saudi Air Force and the Rebuplic of Singapore Air Force. Neither existed in 1942. His mother was Canadian/English according to her census entry in 1910 and his grandparents were both born in England in the 1820's and emigrated to the US in 1852. I believe the UK had "Flight Sergeants" as well, ie, enlisted airmen. Maybe there was a Commonwealth Air Force with those initials? He was born in upstate NY (Cayuga County) and grew up there. Any ideas on what Air Force we are talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiew Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I can only help a little. Since the abbreviation for Sargeant it spelled with an "e" it has to be British. Any chance there is an error in the inscription? Could it be RCAF? (Canada) RAAF? (Australia) or RSAAF? (S. Africa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 I can only help a little. Since the abbreviation for Sargeant it spelled with an "e" it has to be British. Any chance there is an error in the inscription? Could it be RCAF? (Canada) RAAF? (Australia) or RSAAF? (S. Africa) 208619[/snapback] Canada maybe. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britbillsfan Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Royal Singapore Air Force might be an option for the time in question, as Singapore fell to the Japanese in 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerjamhead Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 The USAF wasn't established until after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Royal Singapore Air Force might be an option for the time in question, as Singapore fell to the Japanese in 1942. 208658[/snapback] The RSAF started out as the SADC in 1968 and changed their name to the RSAF in 1975 according to their web site. Thanks anyway. It is a puzzlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Royal Swedish Air Force. Started in 1926. http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/sweden/swedenmain.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Royal Swedish Air Force. Started in 1926. http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/sweden/swedenmain.shtml 208849[/snapback] Thanks, now all I have to do is figure out what a 22 year old farm boy from upstate NY would be doing in the Swedish Air Force and how would he get killed "in service" flying for a neutral country? I guess its either that or a typo. Looks like I will be hiking it to a cemetery to verify the inscription. What was the USAF called before it was called the USAF? Think of it this way, the more time I spend on this genealogy, the less time I have to post here. Now if that isn't a call for volunteers to figure this out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 What was the USAF called before it was called the USAF? The Army Air Corp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Thanks, now all I have to do is figure out what a 22 year old farm boy from upstate NY would be doing in the Swedish Air Force and how would he get killed "in service" flying for a neutral country? I guess its either that or a typo. Looks like I will be hiking it to a cemetery to verify the inscription. What was the USAF called before it was called the USAF? Think of it this way, the more time I spend on this genealogy, the less time I have to post here. Now if that isn't a call for volunteers to figure this out.... 208857[/snapback] The USAF was established in 1947. Before that it was the Army Air Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 The USAF was established in 1947. Before that it was the Army Air Service. 208902[/snapback] It sounds like maybe RCAF is the best candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I am doing some genealogical research and ran across a relative who was born in 1919 and died "in service" in 1942 in World War II. His grave marker has the inscription: "Flt. Sergt. Pilot R.S.A.F." I haven't seen the actual inscription so perhaps the "R" is really a "U" but that is just a guess. I know that Sergeant Pilots were enlisted men trained as pilots which was something pretty new. Pilots in early 1941 had to have two years of college and they were made officers. In mid-1941 they changed that and the "Flying Sergeants" were started. They did much of the flying in conjunction with the invasion of Africa in November of 1942. The only Air Forces I can find with those initials are the Royal Saudi Air Force and the Rebuplic of Singapore Air Force. Neither existed in 1942. His mother was Canadian/English according to her census entry in 1910 and his grandparents were both born in England in the 1820's and emigrated to the US in 1852. I believe the UK had "Flight Sergeants" as well, ie, enlisted airmen. Maybe there was a Commonwealth Air Force with those initials? He was born in upstate NY (Cayuga County) and grew up there. Any ideas on what Air Force we are talking about here? 208523[/snapback] The UK and other Commonwealth air forces did have enlisted pilots, far more so than the USAAF. Odds are it's a Commonwealth air force, and odds are it's a typo (can't recall hearing of an RSAF...and I know FAR more about the air war in WWII than anyone really should. ) I'd bet, for now, that it's supposed to be RCAF, as it wasn't unheard of for Americans to cross the border and volunteer (fairly common through 1941, actually...a good portion of the group commanders in the US 8th Air Force cut their teeth in the Battle of Britain). If you can tell me the theater he was killed in and approximate (or exact) date of death, I can very likely tell you what "RSAF" is supposed to mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 The UK and other Commonwealth air forces did have enlisted pilots, far more so than the USAAF. Odds are it's a Commonwealth air force, and odds are it's a typo (can't recall hearing of an RSAF...and I know FAR more about the air war in WWII than anyone really should. ) I'd bet, for now, that it's supposed to be RCAF, as it wasn't unheard of for Americans to cross the border and volunteer (fairly common through 1941, actually...a good portion of the group commanders in the US 8th Air Force cut their teeth in the Battle of Britain). If you can tell me the theater he was killed in and approximate (or exact) date of death, I can very likely tell you what "RSAF" is supposed to mean. 209047[/snapback] Thanks Tom. I'm working on getting just that information. I found some historical info today on the RCAF and you are right, there were a lot of American commercials pilots who wanted in on the fight long before Pearl. The easiest way for them was to just stroll across the border and sign up with the Canadians. Since his mother was Canadian, it would have been prett easy for him to sign up there. If so, he is the second ancestor I have found of mine that crossed the border to fight with the Canadians before the US entered, in one case WWI and in this one, WWII. All I have right now are census reports which allow me to connect the dots from my family today to this fellow, a cemetery listing and a local "Honor Roll" of citizens who served and died in WWII. That is genealogy for you, it is the process of unraveling a mystery that is interesting ony to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 Wow, I just heard from a guy I had e-mailed after finding out that he had been researching Americans who served in the RCAF, Royal Canadian Air Force in WWII on the possibility that my relative, given that his mom was Canadian, served in the RCAF as opposed to the RSAF. He tells me that my relative, was a graduated pilot from No. 5 Service Flying Training School, Brantford, Ontario Canada. He even had is RCAF service number. He was killed in a flying accident flying a Blackburn Shark on coastal duty with No. 7 BR Bomber Reconnaisance Squadron on June 20, 1942. His name appears on a memorial in Ottawa Canada and there is an organization that is dedicated to caring for all the graves of RCAF veterans killed in service so I can call them and have them add his grave site to their list. On top of that, when I went through the Honor Roll names of WWII vets from Sennett, I ran across the a guy with the exact same name as a good friend of mine. I gave him a call to tell him of this coincidence and turns out it was no coincidence, it was his Dad. Turns out both of our ancestors lived in that small town at the turn of the century and a whole bunch of them served in both WW's, possibly togehter. Small world. Man, sometimes the internet is just too cool for words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 The USAF was established in 1947. Before that it was the Army Air Service. 208902[/snapback] i did not know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 i did not know that. 209792[/snapback] It was a long arduos process for the Army folks to acknowledge air power. Billy Mitchell basically gave up his career because of his fight to for air power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 It was a long arduos process for the Army folks to acknowledge air power. 209992[/snapback] Acknowledge the independence of airpower, more accurately. And they're still consistently proven right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Acknowledge the independence of airpower, more accurately. And they're still consistently proven right... 210005[/snapback] I disagree - to a point. The reason they are "right" is the rules of engagement and the proactive postwar rebuilding. The Army has alot of work to do on that "holding ground" thing. It'd be even worse for them without available air superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I disagree - to a point. The reason they are "right" is the rules of engagement and the proactive postwar rebuilding. The Army has alot of work to do on that "holding ground" thing. It'd be even worse for them without available air superiority. 210010[/snapback] Whereas conversely, no airplane has ever taken and held ground in history. Plenty have, however, been destroyed on the ground by advancing armies (the French Air Force in 1940 and FEAF in 1942 spring most immediately to mind.) The myth of the independent air arm is for the most part just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Whereas conversely, no airplane has ever taken and held ground in history. Plenty have, however, been destroyed on the ground by advancing armies (the French Air Force in 1940 and FEAF in 1942 spring most immediately to mind.) The myth of the independent air arm is for the most part just that. 210030[/snapback] Oh, we could take ground - the question is whether you want to inhabit it in the next 1000 years after we were done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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