Browns Release David Nelson and Naaman Roosevelt

[JohnC]

Where is all this "undoing" John?

 

Seriously.......just point it out if it is so clear. Just some examples.

 

I see a new regime that lost ground in free agency and had the same amount of draft picks as everyone else.

 

I am a fan of the new coaching staff......and I have been harping on the wishy-washy commitment to get a franchise QB in here for seeminlgy ever.... so I am 100% behind the EJ selection.

 

But I expect a turnaround THE MINUTE our QB starts playing at a high level. This is still the roster that Brandon and Nix have built for the past 5 years......Mario Williams, CJ Spiller, Dareus, Gilmore, Stevie, Glenn, Wood, Byrd, Carrington......those moves did not need to be "undone".......this was not a re-build.

 

Let's start off where we agree so we don't continue talking past one another. The organization finally drafted a qb at a high position that they believe will be their franchise qb. They put a lot of effort in vetting the qb prospects. Was this a Nix pick or someone else's? Whaley put the draft board together but Nix was the GM at the time, so whether he was meaningfully involved or not is irrelevant. Ultimately it is the result that counts. They got someone they believed in and only time will tell whether he is the right person. I like the selection a lot. We also agree with the installation of the new coaching staff. I believe that Marrone was a Brandon/Whaley selection and not a Nix selection. This retrograde franchise needed to get away from the tiresome retread approach to hiring staff.

 

Your characterization that this is not a complete rebuild is probably a better characterization than my version of a total overhaul. But my position is that the incoming staff, along with Whaley, doesn't believe that they are at the point of turning the corner of being a serious team. The team is still under construction with draft picks with no major impact free agents brought on board. Lawson-Branch-Legursky type players are role players who are simply fall in the category of being fillers.

 

Where I demonstrably disagree with you is that I get the sense that you felt the team was closer to moving up the ranks than I do. This team is going to be built up mostly with their draft picks. So I believe that it is going to take another two drafts to get the roster shaped the way it needs to be shaped. I don't know how you feel about this draft but my sense is that it had different feel from the prior Nix drafts. Maybe I'm reading too much into it???

 

As I said on prior occasions I believe that this is a three year project. Whether it falls within your definition of a rebuild I can't say for sure. But for me having a three year plan falls within a rebuilding project in the NFL of today.

 

But I expect a turnaround THE MINUTE our QB starts playing at a high level.

 

EJ is not an Andrew Luck or RGIII or Russell Wilson type prospect who was more pro ready and was going to have a more immediate impact. EJ is a rawer qb prospect who has a lot of tools but will take some time to become a more finished product. If he develops at the rate of the standard good qb prospect he should be primed to go when the roster is more of a finished product than it is now. In my estimation another two years. In other words a three year rebuilding cycle if done correctly.

Edited September 2, 2013 by JohnC

[Sisyphean Bills]

There is no doubt that both Seattle and Washington elevated their rosters in general. But what made both of these franchises make the quantum leap was the acquisition of a talented qb. That in itself was the most essential ingredient that transformed those respective frachises..

 

There is a marked difference in the approach. Shanahan and Carroll came into their organizations with plans on the offense and defense systems that they were going to use and hit the ground running overhauling the roster top to bottom including taking chances on obtaining QBs. Their first moves at QB solutions failed, btw. They quickly moved on down the road. The Bills under Gailey never even got out of the driveway. The Bills started QBs that they already had on Jauron's roster the entire time Gailey was coach. The difference is definitive: After 3 years, Gailey was fired and Carroll and Shanahan led their teams to the playoffs.

[JohnC]

There is a marked difference in the approach. Shanahan and Carroll came into their organizations with plans on the offense and defense systems that they were going to use and hit the ground running overhauling the roster top to bottom including taking chances on obtaining QBs. Their first moves at QB solutions failed, btw. They quickly moved on down the road. The Bills under Gailey never even got out of the driveway. The Bills started QBs that they already had on Jauron's roster the entire time Gailey was coach. The difference is definitive: After 3 years, Gailey was fired and Carroll and Shanahan led their teams to the playoffs.

 

Maybe you haven't read the accumulation of my prior posts. I'm more familiar with Shanahan's approach than with Seattle's approach. There is a stark contrast between the Skins compared to the bumbling Bills over that same three year interval. Nix was simply out of his depth. His selection by a clueless owner made little sense. As I have already stated Shanahan fairly quickly cleaned out the overpaid veterans and replaced them with younger and cheaper/better valued players. Gailey was a retread HC hired by an unimaginative GM. Nix was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament.

 

What Shanahan did markedly better than Nix was evaluate talent. His record for selecting productive lower round picks was quite impressive. Nix's overall three year draft record was not very good. It doesn't matter how good your plan is if you can't execute it. It all comes down to evaluating players. The western NY franchise was poor at the most essential endeavor that determined success.

 

When Shanahan traded for McNabb it was understood that it was a stop gap measure. It didn't take long for Shanahan to realize that McNabb's skills were eroded. He traded him away for a pittance. Nix's three year qb search involved Levi Brown and Fitz. What was infuriating over that time span was Nix passing on very good qb prospects.

 

One can fairly criticize Gailey for his record as a HC with the Bills. But the bottom line is no matter how good of a HC he was he never stood a chance for success because of the caliber of qb he had to work with.

 

The central point I wanted to make with the Seattle and Washington examples is that if you know what you are doing you can in a three year period transform a hollow team into a serious team. It comes down to drafting well and finding a credible qb.

[NoName]

Donald Jones and David Nelson folks. Chan was a genius for getting as much as he did out of them.

 

Really good post...throw in namaan as well.......I think Chan is a good NFL coordinator.....not so sure about head coach though

[BADOLBILZ]

Maybe you haven't read the accumulation of my prior posts. I'm more familiar with Shanahan's approach than with Seattle's approach. There is a stark contrast between the Skins compared to the bumbling Bills over that same three year interval. Nix was simply out of his depth. His selection by a clueless owner made little sense. As I have already stated Shanahan fairly quickly cleaned out the overpaid veterans and replaced them with younger and cheaper/better valued players. Gailey was a retread HC hired by an unimaginative GM. Nix was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament.

 

What Shanahan did markedly better than Nix was evaluate talent. His record for selecting productive lower round picks was quite impressive. Nix's overall three year draft record was not very good. It doesn't matter how good your plan is if you can't execute it. It all comes down to evaluating players. The western NY franchise was poor at the most essential endeavor that determined success.

 

When Shanahan traded for McNabb it was understood that it was a stop gap measure. It didn't take long for Shanahan to realize that McNabb's skills were eroded. He traded him away for a pittance. Nix's three year qb search involved Levi Brown and Fitz. What was infuriating over that time span was Nix passing on very good qb prospects.

 

One can fairly criticize Gailey for his record as a HC with the Bills. But the bottom line is no matter how good of a HC he was he never stood a chance for success because of the caliber of qb he had to work with.

 

The central point I wanted to make with the Seattle and Washington examples is that if you know what you are doing you can in a three year period transform a hollow team into a serious team. It comes down to drafting well and finding a credible qb.

 

One very important difference is that Washington didn't create holes in their process. Guys like DeAngelo Hall, London Fletcher and Santana Moss would have been cap casualties in Buffalo.

 

FOR CERTAIN.

 

Hall was a negative overall performer according to PFF(despite a lot of tackles)......Fletcher had his lowest tackle production in over a decade......and Santana is a 40 catch per year receiver at this point.

 

The Bills don't hang on to players like that.

 

Instead, they are important contributors........with diminishing skills but still valued. The Bills don't play that game. You lose a step, you are gone even if there is nothing remotely better on the roster or in the forseeable future.

 

And lets' not forget that the 'Skins have cap issues that preclude Shanahan from going all "Bone Collector" like he did in his final few years in Denver..........where he brought in every washed up or busted former first round pick he could find......including the entire Cleveland Browns defensive line at one point.

[Arkady Renko]

One very important difference is that Washington didn't create holes in their process. Guys like DeAngelo Hall, London Fletcher and Santana Moss would have been cap casualties in Buffalo.

 

FOR CERTAIN.

 

Hall was a negative overall performer according to PFF(despite a lot of tackles)......Fletcher had his lowest tackle production in over a decade......and Santana is a 40 catch per year receiver at this point.

 

The Bills don't hang on to players like that.

 

Instead, they are important contributors........with diminishing skills but still valued. The Bills don't play that game. You lose a step, you are gone even if there is nothing remotely better on the roster or in the forseeable future.

 

And lets' not forget that the 'Skins have cap issues that preclude Shanahan from going all "Bone Collector" like he did in his final few years in Denver..........where he brought in every washed up or busted former first round pick he could find......including the entire Cleveland Browns defensive line at one point.

 

Definitely. I am so sick of the Bills going on a cutting spree and creating new holes every year.

[JohnC]

One very important difference is that Washington didn't create holes in their process. Guys like DeAngelo Hall, London Fletcher and Santana Moss would have been cap casualties in Buffalo.

 

FOR CERTAIN.

 

Hall was a negative overall performer according to PFF(despite a lot of tackles)......Fletcher had his lowest tackle production in over a decade......and Santana is a 40 catch per year receiver at this point.

 

The Bills don't hang on to players like that.

 

Instead, they are important contributors........with diminishing skills but still valued. The Bills don't play that game. You lose a step, you are gone even if there is nothing remotely better on the roster or in the forseeable future.

 

And lets' not forget that the 'Skins have cap issues that preclude Shanahan from going all "Bone Collector" like he did in his final few years in Denver..........where he brought in every washed up or busted former first round pick he could find......including the entire Cleveland Browns defensive line at one point.

 

I wasn't a Shanahan fan when he first came to Washington. He is a control freak who has less than a warm personality. He is not the type of coach who tolerates dissent within the ranks. Fat Albert Haynesworth tried to screw with the HC by doing his own thing by playing outside the system and giving little effort in practice. Shanahan went gangster on him and eviscerated him. He not only went out of his way to castrate Haynesworth but he did it publicly so that he would be humiliated. Shanahan has a very simple to understand concept with respect to practice: If you don't practice hard, you don't play. Haynesworth felt he was too talented to waste his energy on practice. So Shanahan played him very sparingly.

 

You make the contrast that the Bills, unlike the Skins, are more inclined to wave the more expensive veterans when their skills start to diminish. I have no problem with that approach except with the Bills they make the cut without having a credible replacement ready to fill in the created hole. Some people get very upset when the issue of Buffalo's more stringent business model is brought up. But it is a reality that has handicapped this franchise. This more restrictive fiscal environment could still work if this franchise drafted better. What helped turn around the Skins franchise was Shanahan's uncanny ability to hit on lower round picks. Nix's record on that score was dismal.

 

From a record standpoint this upcoming season will not be too satisfying. But from a rebuilding standpoint it will be intriguing to watch how this draft class turns out and how EJ develops. If on both issues it works out then I will be somewhat optimistic that in a few years this franchise will be back to being relevant. I still believe that at least three draft classes have to go by before this franchise can find enough talent to compete at a high level. What is frustrating is the realization that six years of talent acquisitions have been squandered by the prior regimes. I'm hoping that this younger and more innovative staff can do a much better job than the outdated prior staffs. Fresh air is certainly better than stale air!

 

One very important difference is that Washington didn't create holes in their process. Guys like DeAngelo Hall, London Fletcher and Santana Moss would have been cap casualties in Buffalo.

 

FOR CERTAIN.

 

Hall was a negative overall performer according to PFF(despite a lot of tackles)......Fletcher had his lowest tackle production in over a decade......and Santana is a 40 catch per year receiver at this point.

 

The three players you mentioned are basically out of gas. By the time the season gets to the halfway point all three players will either be injured or replaced by younger and fresher players. The replacements are already on the roster and ready to move up.

Edited September 3, 2013 by JohnC

[RCOHEN13]

Has a hot girlfriend still or maybe not after being cut

 

She's really not that hot. I was at Pats game at the Ralph last yr and she was sitting right in front of me with 2 friends... i live in Boca Raton and see women 10 times hotter than her daily

[BADOLBILZ]

I wasn't a Shanahan fan when he first came to Washington. He is a control freak who has less than a warm personality. He is not the type of coach who tolerates dissent within the ranks. Fat Albert Haynesworth tried to screw with the HC by doing his own thing by playing outside the system and giving little effort in practice. Shanahan went gangster on him and eviscerated him. He not only went out of his way to castrate Haynesworth but he did it publicly so that he would be humiliated. Shanahan has a very simple to understand concept with respect to practice: If you don't practice hard, you don't play. Haynesworth felt he was too talented to waste his energy on practice. So Shanahan played him very sparingly.

 

You make the contrast that the Bills, unlike the Skins, are more inclined to wave the more expensive veterans when their skills start to diminish. I have no problem with that approach except with the Bills they make the cut without having a credible replacement ready to fill in the created hole. Some people get very upset when the issue of Buffalo's more stringent business model is brought up. But it is a reality that has handicapped this franchise. This more restrictive fiscal environment could still work if this franchise drafted better. What helped turn around the Skins franchise was Shanahan's uncanny ability to hit on lower round picks. Nix's record on that score was dismal.

 

From a record standpoint this upcoming season will not be too satisfying. But from a rebuilding standpoint it will be intriguing to watch how this draft class turns out and how EJ develops. If on both issues it works out then I will be somewhat optimistic that in a few years this franchise will be back to being relevant. I still believe that at least three draft classes have to go by before this franchise can find enough talent to compete at a high level. What is frustrating is the realization that six years of talent acquisitions have been squandered by the prior regimes. I'm hoping that this younger and more innovative staff can do a much better job than the outdated prior staffs. Fresh air is certainly better than stale air!

 

 

 

The three players you mentioned are basically out of gas. By the time the season gets to the halfway point all three players will either be injured or replaced by younger and fresher players. The replacements are already on the roster and ready to move up.

 

The three players I mentioned wouldn't have even made it to the 2012 Bills roster with a rookie QB being brought in, let alone this year. It would have been the unspoken "rebuild" excuse and guys well into their 30's would have been shown the door.

[JohnC]

The three players I mentioned wouldn't have even made it to the 2012 Bills roster with a rookie QB being brought in, let alone this year. It would have been the unspoken "rebuild" excuse and guys well into their 30's would have been shown the door.

 

I agree that the three players you mentioned wouldn't have made it to our 2012 roster. But as I stated in the prior posts all three of these players were clearly on the downside last year. And it showed in their performances. Hall was not going to be kept this year unless he took a major cut. He did. Fletcher should have retired this offseason and gone into broadcasting. He had some enticing offers that he put on hold.

 

There is no doubt that the Bills run a different shop than a lot of other franchises. Tough! Sometimes in life you have limitations that others don't have. You make the necessary adjustment and deal with it. That is a challenge when you have an organization more known for its staid and plodding style than for its innovative and creative approach to the business. One way you can better compete with the big dogs is to put a lot of resources into the scouting department. By drafting better and being more judicious in the mid-tier free agent market you can make up for the lack of $$$ resources. For the past half dozen years the Bills have not been too adept in their player evaluations, mostly in the draft. That has crippled them more than the money issue has. What fool organization would draft Donte Whitner over Ngata? You don't think drafting Kaepernick instead of Aaron Williams wouldn't have had a dramatic upbeat affect on this franchise? Taking Russell Wilson over TJ Graham in the third round certainly would have had a profound positive affect for this franchise. The bottom line is that the limitations of its third rate staff has handcuffed this franchise more than the money issue has.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited September 3, 2013 by JohnC

[Thurmal34]

Your post oozes hostility though I am not sure why.

 

 

Me neither. Maybe the timestamp had something to do with it.

 

Did you think it was a wise decision to release Nelson, who was effectively a starter in Gailey's spread offense, and ultimately spend 2 draft picks on the position?

 

 

I did think it was wise, yes.

 

My sense is that Nelson was a mediocre at best player with inflated numbers due to the the system you mention. That, coupled with the uncertainty around his health, and the published reports all spring and summer that he was dealing with recurring pain in the knee that he blew out in 2012, made it a wise desicion not to tender him.

 

Further, I think it was smart to invest picks in a position that heretofore had been largely ignored. Just my $.02.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Thurmal34

[ganesh]

Me neither. Maybe the timestamp had something to do with it.

 

 

 

I did think it was wise, yes.

 

My sense is that Nelson was a mediocre at best player with inflated numbers due to the the system you mention. That, coupled with the uncertainty around his health, and the published reports all spring and summer that he was dealing with recurring pain in the knee that he blew out in 2012, made it a wise desicion not to tender him.

 

Further, I think it was smart to invest picks in a position that hereforeto had been largely ignored. Just my $.02.

 

Also, don't forget that this coaching staff was very keen on moving Stevie to the slot, there by eliminating a need for another starter at that position.

[Thurmal34]

First of all, learn to count or stay on the porch hounddog.

 

Normal amout of draft picks = 7. I'll repeat, the Bills very clearly did NOT have their normal amount of draft picks, despite what you claim.

 

 

Secondly, no matter how offended you get by me calling it like it is.......it's not going to bring back Colin Kaepernick or Russell Wilson......you can't give back the draft picks and get Marshawn and his 100 yards/game back.....NONE of the mistakes will be erased by hating on a fellow fan....

 

I'm only offended by you calling other posters names, not by you purportedly "calling it like it is".

 

You claimed letting Nelson go was a mistake, and it's pretty clear that it was not. No one is "hating on a fellow fan" by pointing out that your opinion of the Nelson non-tender was incorrect.

 

It's very clear that the Bills have made some major mistakes in the past, and they do indeed deserve to be called out for those errors, particularly when they appear to make the same ones over and over again.

 

However, letting Nelson walk without tendering him was not one of them. He's a slow footed, mediocre player that IMO had inflated numbers due to a pass heavy system. The cherry on the sundae is the fact the Plain Dealer was reporting as far back as 8/2/2013 that Nelson still had lingering pain from his surgery. Think the Bills medical staff might have had an inkling about that when the decision was made to non tender him?

 

 

Be an educated fan and let the chips fall where they may.

 

 

I try my best.