JohnC Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Actually, that's not true. He's built both the lines, which is the foundation of any team. You're just peeved we're not winning. Winning is the object for those involved in assembling a roster. That is the point of being in the football business. You can reasonably make the argument that Nix built a better OL and DL compared to his predecessors. So what! Is that how you judge success in the NFL? Building a better roster for Buffalo is no challenge at all because our roster has been dismal for a very long time. So if the roster gets better and it doesn't translate into victories then what have you really accomplished? Absolutely nothing. Moral victories are for losers! "What if" excuses are for crybabies! The Jauron/Levy era got skewered for its mediocre play and record, and rightly so. Their record is significantly better than the Gailey/Nix record. And now you are trying to make the claim that this current regime is a success! That is beyond being absurd; it is laughable. It's sad to see how the fans are so battered that they accept standards that have little to do with a team's record. The essence of sports is about competition. It is not very difficult to judge success. It's about the record. It's as simple as that. Edited December 9, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Wrong on everything.... Perhaps you should have stated those coaches never won a super bowl without those QB's.I say Its the great head coach that makes a great QB or finds one to make great. Elway was a 3x SB loser before Shanahan got to Denver and installed the west coast offense along with a devastating power running game. I was arguing a point about how free agency and how it has affected teams vs what a good head coach can do to a team. YOU want to start a debate over elite QB's vs head coaches. I say show me a SB winning QB and I'll show you a great HC / coaching staff behind him. Kinda why the super bowl trophy is named after a head coach and not a stadium, owner, QB, team. Actually, I'm not wrong in any of those statements. Case-in-point: What, exactly, did Dungy's 4 consecutive playoff seasons earn him? Nothing...the team won the Superbowl with a different head coach (which, by the way, was the reason they switched coaches; Dungy didn't get it done with that roster...Gruden did) What, exactly, did all of Cowher's playoff seasons get him? Nothing...the team won the Superbowl once Big Ben took over, not before. Also, has it escaped your attention that a different head coach took the same team to the Superbowl twice since Cowher left, winning once? Pretty obvious. I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the point...they don't give out trophies for playoff appearances. I also think it's completely useless to point out that the Superbowl trophy, named over 40 years ago, is named after a coach. If you know the story, it was an issue of timing. In 1970 the AFL & NFL officially combined under the banner of the NFL, and re-named the original leagues as conferences. It was also in this year that Lombardi suddenly became ill and died of cancer at the age of 57. 3 Days after his death, then-NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle named the Super Bowl trophy the Vince Lombardi Trophy. It could just as easily been called the Halas Trophy, Hunt Trophy, or a half-dozen other names, but none of those guys died that week. And as I've pointed out to you, there are plenty of examples that show that Superbowls are won based on strength at QB, not HC. If it were the HC, wouldn't Jimmy Johnson have won in Miami and Barry Swtizer have failed miserably in Dallas? Your point about 1st round QBs doesn't fly either. If you want an elite QB, you need to pick one in the first round. Sure, guys like Brees occasionally slip to the first pick of the 2nd round, and there's Brady--the seemingly singular aberration--but overall, the best QBs go in the first round. Yes, some guys will be busts...that has very little to do with coaching. Case-in-point: how many first round QBs were busts with one team/coach that turned things around with another? I can only think of one: Alex Smith. The others were simply not as good as they seemed in college. You claim that your post was about coaching over free agency, but the general thesis seems to be that the teams that turn things around do so "JUST BY HIRING A GOOD HEAD COACH", since it was mentioned several times. Somehow, you missed that my point back to you was that Superbowl winning teams have great QBs, while the coaches have--on many occasions--shown that they cannot win a Superbowl without said great QB. The examples I showed were very clear on that. Hope that explains things more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Winning is the object for those involved in assembling a roster. That is the point of being in the football business. You can reasonably make the argument that Nix built a better OL and DL compared to his predecessors. So what! Is that how you judge success in the NFL? Building a better roster for Buffalo is no challenge at all because our roster has been dismal for a very long time. So if the roster gets better and it doesn't translate into victories then what you have you really accomplished? Arguably you could make the point that you've made the roster more attractive to the next Head Coach. No one seems to be arguing that the roster has improved so whoever succeeds Gailey might look more favorably at the prospects of coaching the Bills. However the whole Ralph Wilson limbo situation supersedes most of my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Arguably you could make the point that you've made the roster more attractive to the next Head Coach. No one seems to be arguing that the roster has improved so whoever succeeds Gailey might look more favorably at the prospects of coaching the Bills. However the whole Ralph Wilson limbo situation supersedes most of my point. The Ralph Wilson limbo situation has existed for more than a half century. He is going to do what he wants to do. No one can change that. What anyone else thinks is of no concern to him. As frustrating as the situation is with this fading owner, it is what it is. You simply have to deal with the negative cards you've been dealt. The issue I was responding to is based on how Chan/Nix should be judged. There is only one way to judge performance in this sport: the record. Based on that simple criterion the Nix regime has not done a stellar job. When judging the performance of the Bills you don't make a judgment in a vacuum. It isn't about how good your team is? It is how does your team compete against its competitors. On that basis the team and organization have not been a success. As I stated in the prior post what good is it if the OL and DL are dramatically improved if it doesn't translate into wins. From the record standpoint the aggravating Jauron/Levy era has been more successful than the Chan/Nix era. It is really sad how some people (not you) have dumbed down their expectations for this franchise because they have been battered by a generation of mediocre play. I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that defeatest trap and mind-set. Edited December 9, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 The Ralph Wilson limbo situation has existed for more than a half century. He is going to do what he wants to do. No one can change that. What anyone else thinks is of no concern to him. As frustrating as the situation is with this fading owner, it is what it is. You simply have to deal with the negative cards you've been dealt. The issue I was responding to is basis on how Chan/Nix should be judged. There is only one way to judge performance in this sport: the record. Based on that simple criterion the Nix regime has not done a stellar job. When judging the performance of the Bills you don't make a judgment in a vacuum. It isn't about how good your team is? It is how does your team compete against its competitors. On that basis the team and organization have not been a success. As I stated in the prior post what good is it if the OL and DL are dramatically improved if it doesn't translate into wins. From the record standpoint the aggravating Jauron/Levy era has been more successful than the Chan/Nix era. It is really sad how some people (not you) have dumbed down their expectations for this franchise because they have been battered by a generation of mediocre play. I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that defeatest trap and mind-set. Have I mentioned that you are my favorite poster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gray Beard Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 The Ralph Wilson limbo situation has existed for more than a half century. I think the Ralph Wilson limbo situation is reaching a dramatic crescendo. His age and health are far more of a concern now than ever before. Has he made it to a game this year? The whole stadium lease, upgrade, and public money situation is in a logjam. Any new coach or GM has to realize that the continuity of the situation is a big issue going forward. Every season there is speculation regarding Ralph's health, but it seems like this year it has much more of an imminent feel to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Have I mentioned that you are my favorite poster? Yes. I assume this is a socially acceptable poster crush! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsWatch Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Am I the only one who sees this article as a complete slap in the face to the fans??? No offense to JW. Nix must think the fans are a load of idiots, and maybe he is right... I am sure he is right IF he thinks so. I have seen enough of those posts on this board alone to be ample proof/ Of course I am not convinced many ARE fans of the Bills that is and they enjoy seeing Bills not doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) I think the Ralph Wilson limbo situation is reaching a dramatic crescendo. His age and health are far more of a concern now than ever before. Has he made it to a game this year? The whole stadium lease, upgrade, and public money situation is in a logjam. Any new coach or GM has to realize that the continuity of the situation is a big issue going forward. Every season there is speculation regarding Ralph's health, but it seems like this year it has much more of an imminent feel to it. There is nothing new about the Ralph Wilson situation. The team is going to be auctioned off when he passes. He is 94 yrs old and as expected his health is faltering. There is nothing new or surprising about his status. Does anyone expect Ralph Wilson is going to contribute to the renovation of the stadium now when his life expectancy is very short, especially when he never made a contribution when he was much younger? Do you expect him to commit to an extended lease when it will make his asset less appealing to an outside bidder? Whatever personnel decisions Nix and his staff make have little to do with Ralph Wilson's vanishing involvement. Their decisions, good or bad, are made based on their own judgments. At this point all the owner wants from his football staff is to be kept informed. Edited December 9, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Actually, I'm not wrong in any of those statements. Case-in-point: What, exactly, did Dungy's 4 consecutive playoff seasons earn him? Nothing...the team won the Superbowl with a different head coach (which, by the way, was the reason they switched coaches; Dungy didn't get it done with that roster...Gruden did) What, exactly, did all of Cowher's playoff seasons get him? Nothing...the team won the Superbowl once Big Ben took over, not before. Also, has it escaped your attention that a different head coach took the same team to the Superbowl twice since Cowher left, winning once? Pretty obvious. I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the point...they don't give out trophies for playoff appearances. I also think it's completely useless to point out that the Superbowl trophy, named over 40 years ago, is named after a coach. If you know the story, it was an issue of timing. In 1970 the AFL & NFL officially combined under the banner of the NFL, and re-named the original leagues as conferences. It was also in this year that Lombardi suddenly became ill and died of cancer at the age of 57. 3 Days after his death, then-NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle named the Super Bowl trophy the Vince Lombardi Trophy. It could just as easily been called the Halas Trophy, Hunt Trophy, or a half-dozen other names, but none of those guys died that week. And as I've pointed out to you, there are plenty of examples that show that Superbowls are won based on strength at QB, not HC. If it were the HC, wouldn't Jimmy Johnson have won in Miami and Barry Swtizer have failed miserably in Dallas? Your point about 1st round QBs doesn't fly either. If you want an elite QB, you need to pick one in the first round. Sure, guys like Brees occasionally slip to the first pick of the 2nd round, and there's Brady--the seemingly singular aberration--but overall, the best QBs go in the first round. Yes, some guys will be busts...that has very little to do with coaching. Case-in-point: how many first round QBs were busts with one team/coach that turned things around with another? I can only think of one: Alex Smith. The others were simply not as good as they seemed in college. You claim that your post was about coaching over free agency, but the general thesis seems to be that the teams that turn things around do so "JUST BY HIRING A GOOD HEAD COACH", since it was mentioned several times. Somehow, you missed that my point back to you was that Superbowl winning teams have great QBs, while the coaches have--on many occasions--shown that they cannot win a Superbowl without said great QB. The examples I showed were very clear on that. Hope that explains things more clearly. You were dead wrong in every point you made, and to say otherwise is just plain denial. I'd take anyone of those winning coaches over the loser Chan Gailey, who can't even get his teams to a winning record, much less the playoffs You started this great QB vs HC debate and went off spouting about all those coaches were only good because of their QB's. I pointed out that each and every HC won with different QB's Only you would try and diminish what a "winning" NFL HC has accomplished. I suppose in your mind HoF HC Marv Levy was never a winner because he never won a SB. Like I stated, "I say show me a SB winning QB and I'll show you a great HC / coaching staff behind him" Want to back up YOUR point? Show me different..or go away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) The Ralph Wilson limbo situation has existed for more than a half century. He is going to do what he wants to do. No one can change that. What anyone else thinks is of no concern to him. As frustrating as the situation is with this fading owner, it is what it is. You simply have to deal with the negative cards you've been dealt. The issue I was responding to is based on how Chan/Nix should be judged. There is only one way to judge performance in this sport: the record. Based on that simple criterion the Nix regime has not done a stellar job. When judging the performance of the Bills you don't make a judgment in a vacuum. It isn't about how good your team is? It is how does your team compete against its competitors. On that basis the team and organization have not been a success. As I stated in the prior post what good is it if the OL and DL are dramatically improved if it doesn't translate into wins. From the record standpoint the aggravating Jauron/Levy era has been more successful than the Chan/Nix era. It is really sad how some people (not you) have dumbed down their expectations for this franchise because they have been battered by a generation of mediocre play. I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that defeatest trap and mind-set. Stockholm syndrome: "Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy, sympathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them." I seriously can't comprehend half the fans on this site that always have a positive attitude towards the team when the Buffalo Bills keep losing game after game, year after year due to ineptitude, and stupidity on the football side of operations. I find it almost insanely maddening that so many fans posting here constantly bitched about what a horrible GM Marv Levy was, and what a horrible HC Dick Jauron was, and yet continuously defend the ineptitude of Gailey / Nix. who have won less games. Bills fans are finding out the hard way that neither Buddy Nix nor AJ Smith were the brains behind that spectacular star studded "best players in the NFL" Charger team. It now appears that looking at both Nix and Smith the last few years it was John Butler who was the man. They are also finding out that the win record of Chan Gailey while the HC of the Dallas Cowboys was the result of inheriting a very talented, albeit older Cowboys team, and not the result of anything Gailey did,10-6 to 8-8 and fired at Dallas. Fired at KC as OC, and sat of of football in 09. Both men are clearly not what was expected by this fan base as both are still learning their jobs as they go. Edited December 9, 2012 by FeartheLosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 After this RAM game debacle and thirteen years with no playoff berth, patience is officially gone Buddy. Wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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