FreakPop Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Harrison and Wayne were special because of Manning. Elsewhere, they are ordinary to good. As already mentioned, Casell went 11-5 in Brady's absence. That's VERY telling. We all know how the Colts did without Manning. Brady is undoubtedly an all-time geat QB. The question was asked, is he the greaest? The answer is.....NO. Period. ...or was Manning special because of Wayne and Harrison? Works both ways. as already stated, Painter sucks so bad he was cut this year and Cassel has been a good starter for the Chiefs the past couple of years. again without a doubt Manning has had better skill guys to work with. In a big game and big game situation, i'm taking Brady over Manning. Period! Hey look I can do it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RI Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Is there any other argument for keeping Montana out of the top spot? There are a few arguments for keeping Montana out of the top spot. Graham, Unitis, Baugh, Marino, Elway, & Farve are some that come to mind. If the discussion turns to keeping Brady out of the top spot a few more names can be added to that list. Including the Manning Brothers, Aikman, Fouts, & even Bradshaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) There are a few arguments for keeping Montana out of the top spot. Graham, Unitis, Baugh, Marino, Elway, & Farve are some that come to mind. If the discussion turns to keeping Brady out of the top spot a few more names can be added to that list. Including the Manning Brothers, Aikman, Fouts, & even Bradshaw. The point was, if you discount the external advantages the quarterbacks had and just look to team success as the indicator it seems almost a given that Montana ends up on top. However, when you consider that he was surrounded by talent on a team that still dominated and won a SB soon after his departure (Kind of like a guy whose team went 11-5 the year he was out) you realize that there are probably other guys who were better but had less fortunate circumstances. Edit: And Kent Graham isn't even in the conversation. Edited September 2, 2012 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) Super bowl on the line, chance for career defining drive aka montana, watch this ..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBlvjtfpPAg&feature=youtube_gdata_player Monumental, epic CHOKE... still had a chance to win the game too, but was completely rattled... again. I would rather have someone like Fitz starting a play-off game than P-Gump. I like my chances better with the unknown over a probable failure. Regular season game, I will take P-Gump. Edited September 2, 2012 by Rico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RI Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) The point was, if you discount the external advantages the quarterbacks had and just look to team success as the indicator it seems almost a given that Montana ends up on top. However, when you consider that he was surrounded by talent on a team that still dominated and won a SB soon after his departure (Kind of like a guy whose team went 11-5 the year he was out) you realize that there are probably other guys who were better but had less fortunate circumstances. Edit: And Kent Graham isn't even in the conversation. It's Otto Graham, and IMHO the GOAT QB discussion starts with him, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitis, & Bart Starr. The rest of what you said I agree with, provided you acknowledge that any attempt to equate Cassel to Young will be ridiculed and mocked mercilessly. Edited September 2, 2012 by RI Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBaroo Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Echoing the immortal words of Pedro Martinez - Tom Brady is our Daddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 It's Otto Graham, and IMHO the GOAT QB discussion starts with him, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitis, & Bart Starr. The rest of what you said I agree with, provided you acknowledge that any attempt to equate Cassel to Young will be ridiculed and mocked mercilessly. Well understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Choosing a best of QB is like deciding which is the best between a Bentley, a Lambo, a McLaren, a Bugatti and a Ferrari. Someone will find fault with one of them, and drop them down a notch or two, but in the end they all are deserving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 No doubt a good example. I think a more recent example was the sheer beating Eli took last year vs the 49ers. He was pummeled and made the plays needed to win what was arguably the best game played in quite some time. Eli is elite. i never thought the Giants would win that game, I agree. Some QBs can take the pressure and overcome it, others will succumb to it and allow it to turn them into a mere mortal. Brady falls into the latter category. I use this example from time to time because I just don't think enough people appreciate it....Back in '93 Joe Montanta was with the Chiefs. They played the Oilers in Houston that year in the playoffs and Buddy Ryan had that 46 defense just KILLING people. I remember seeing that defense and being scared to death of the Bills going up against it. Montana was in his late 30s, playing with a good-not-great KC team, and he not only found a way to manage the pressure and get up after getting hit, he led them to an improbable win. This was one of the smartest, grittiest performances I've ever seen. Of course, later on he would have a meeting with Bruce Smith who would paste him into the turf at the Ralph, but how much can you really ask of the guy? I've seen every Brady playoff game of his career and I just can't honestly say I've ever seen him do this. Edit: And Kent Graham isn't even in the conversation. LOL!! I would rather have someone like Fitz starting a play-off game than P-Gump. LOL....at least during the times when we're on opposite sides of the fence, it's still good for a laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) Okay, check this out guys...watch how aggressive the Oilers D is in the first part of the game (note: we never got close to this level of pressure when Greggo was here)...the 46 is high rish, high reward....but if it the high risks dont pay off, then they have to play more conservatively. Montana takes a pounding and keeps getting up to make plays. Check out the shot of his elbow at the 3:29 mark! Lots of greats in this game, including one of the most underrated receivers I've ever seen in Haywood Jefferies. YOu also have the late Derrick Thomas, Marcus Allen, a young Blaine Bishop, the great Warren Moon, etc...truly a great playoff game. Those who got to watch Montana, Kelly, Marino, Elway, Moon, etc were really treated to some amazing football. It's interesting because Montana and Brady have very similar physicality. (BTW, Joe was around 37 y.o. here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ4VRgxBbHc Edited September 2, 2012 by ajzepp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) i never thought the Giants would win that game, I agree. Some QBs can take the pressure and overcome it, others will succumb to it and allow it to turn them into a mere mortal. Brady falls into the latter category. I use this example from time to time because I just don't think enough people appreciate it....Back in '93 Joe Montanta was with the Chiefs. They played the Oilers in Houston that year in the playoffs and Buddy Ryan had that 46 defense just KILLING people. I remember seeing that defense and being scared to death of the Bills going up against it. Montana was in his late 30s, playing with a good-not-great KC team, and he not only found a way to manage the pressure and get up after getting hit, he led them to an improbable win. This was one of the smartest, grittiest performances I've ever seen. Of course, later on he would have a meeting with Bruce Smith who would paste him into the turf at the Ralph, but how much can you really ask of the guy? I've seen every Brady playoff game of his career and I just can't honestly say I've ever seen him do this. Not sure what your point is here! Are you saying that a QB has to be the bruiser type and end up bloodied and hobbled in order to be considered great? Brady has led the Pats to countless comeback wins while under the most extreme pressure .... the pressure of the big game. Now, granted, he might not have came out of the games bludgeoned in the process, but who the heck cares? Edited September 3, 2012 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I'd give it to Peyton too. I lived in Indy in '06 thru '10, and he is an amazing QB. He went down last year, the whole team went down. Brady goes down and they still go to the playoffs. Interesting article none the less. Actually when Brady went down they didn't make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 i never thought the Giants would win that game, I agree. Some QBs can take the pressure and overcome it, others will succumb to it and allow it to turn them into a mere mortal. Brady falls into the latter category. I use this example from time to time because I just don't think enough people appreciate it....Back in '93 Joe Montanta was with the Chiefs. They played the Oilers in Houston that year in the playoffs and Buddy Ryan had that 46 defense just KILLING people. I remember seeing that defense and being scared to death of the Bills going up against it. Montana was in his late 30s, playing with a good-not-great KC team, and he not only found a way to manage the pressure and get up after getting hit, he led them to an improbable win. This was one of the smartest, grittiest performances I've ever seen. Of course, later on he would have a meeting with Bruce Smith who would paste him into the turf at the Ralph, but how much can you really ask of the guy? I've seen every Brady playoff game of his career and I just can't honestly say I've ever seen him do this. LOL!! LOL....at least during the times when we're on opposite sides of the fence, it's still good for a laugh Zepp---as much as I love Bruce's game---and Bruce was a very clean player----that was a laaaate hit on Montana.Shoulda been a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Okay, check this out guys...watch how aggressive the Oilers D is in the first part of the game (note: we never got close to this level of pressure when Greggo was here)...the 46 is high rish, high reward....but if it the high risks dont pay off, then they have to play more conservatively. Montana takes a pounding and keeps getting up to make plays. Check out the shot of his elbow at the 3:29 mark! Lots of greats in this game, including one of the most underrated receivers I've ever seen in Haywood Jefferies. YOu also have the late Derrick Thomas, Marcus Allen, a young Blaine Bishop, the great Warren Moon, etc...truly a great playoff game. Those who got to watch Montana, Kelly, Marino, Elway, Moon, etc were really treated to some amazing football. It's interesting because Montana and Brady have very similar physicality. (BTW, Joe was around 37 y.o. here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ4VRgxBbHc It's bad enough you mention Loser Dan in the same sentence as Joe, Jimbo, and Elway. But Warren Moon? Really? Really? REALLY? (Miz-voice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Not sure what your point is here! The same point that I and a few others have been making over and over....Brady can't beat a pass rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 The same point that I and a few others have been making over and over....Brady can't beat a pass rush. Not a whole lot of people can. Why do you think giants have made the super bowl 2 of last 4 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Not a whole lot of people can. Why do you think giants have made the super bowl 2 of last 4 years? We're not talking about a lot of people. We're talking about whether Tom Brady is the greatest ever. So if you're going to group him in with "a whole lot of people" then obviously he's not the greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 We're not talking about a lot of people. We're talking about whether Tom Brady is the greatest ever. So if you're going to group him in with "a whole lot of people" then obviously he's not the greatest. Your logic is flawed. The comment is on one aspect. It would be like saying mj wasnt a great ball player because like a whole lot of people his percentage wasnt good from half court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Your logic is flawed. The comment is on one aspect. It would be like saying mj wasnt a great ball player because like a whole lot of people his percentage wasnt good from half court. That makes absolutely no sense, Joe. NOBODY's average is good from half court in the NBA. In the NFL there are QBs who overcome and sometimes even thrive against a pass rush on a regular basis, and even more so when it's a big game such as during the playoffs. It's not some magic flying dinosaur like having a strong half court game in the NBA lol. I don't get the point about it being one aspect, either...that's what you do when you break down a player and make an argument as to whether he's the greatest...you analyze different aspects of their game, point out strengths and weaknesses, etc....and when there is a weakness that literally transforms them from a great QB to an average, or even below average, QB, then that is a very significant weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Sure you can. You cant just judge a qb on one aspect - especially qb which has so many components - its a weighting of several factors. OK so Vick can run faster than Brady so what, Brady is superior in every other important aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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