K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 and yes, i agree that its clear that a Pay for performance was going on. the players admitted as much. pay for injury hinges on what seems to be 3-4 key things which i think are much less of a pattern than you let on 1)a handwritten note showing 35k on favre - if valid, totally damning. the nfl will likely have to source this going forward 2)a payout to harper for a hit on brandon jacobs that he returned from on the next drive (involves none of these 4 players) 3)an email from ornstein to the team while he was in jail - 2 of the players no longer on the team, and ornstein claims its a joke, and gregg williams texted him saying he told the league that ornstein had never given money to the pools (text linked above) 4)a slide showing the bounty hunter before the seattle game how fujita and smith are implicated in yesterdays evidence is baffling to me (the only fujita reference being 2500 - general fund and will smith being totally unmentioned in any contributions). will smith has been very quiet on all this but i dont recall seeing his name on anything big yesterday, and if anything id assume harper hits the shelf before he does based on what was given to the players as evidence. hargrove has the questions above that i was asking, as that video is the only proof against him (besides accusations he lied the first time he spoke to investigators). if they have vilma on the dollars on the table, i wont defend him, but id be curious to learn more as he seems pretty firm in his statements that its not true. if statements exist paired with that note, id say its probably solid, but if the statement is from cerrulo (fired ex coach that thinks the saints blackballed him out of the league) and the note is also from him... id have some pause. obviously things were going on, but what, who, and how to punish fairly are still big questions from what the nfl gave out so far. I highly doubt the league can't source any of its evidence. The biggest piece being Williams himself as well as other testimony from people inside the Saints' organization. I will need to see retractions before I can simply discount any of that. If all this is just one giant axe to grind between a former coach and the Saints, then how is the league at fault for that? If that turns out to be the case then Vilma et al are going after the wrong party. But as a reasonable person, I need a lot more to convince me that it's just about a disgruntled ex-employee. As to your last sentence, it doesn't matter what, who, or how much to punish fairly. We'd all like to believe it is but Vilma, Fujita, Hargrove, and Smith should have thought about that before they gave Goodell their authority to do so. I'll look forward to Hargrove's comments this afternoon. GO BILLS!!! again, what is hargrove collecting on if he did not hit favre? the best bet on saying its a bounty would have to be that "bobby give me my money" is a result of knowing that bobby mcray was about to get paid, and owed him money, or something along those lines. hargrove isnt the one that knocked favre out, so why would he be paid on vitts statement that favre was out? again, not implying he was rogue or on his own in the slightest. saying that mcray hit favre, and why would hargrove then collect money, unless some sort of context is missing. even giving context that could support a bounty on favre as the possible explanation. Perhaps Hargrove will answer that this afternoon. What would you have me believe in the meantime based on what we have now which is: Favre out of game. Vitt reports Favre out with broken leg during sideline huddle. Hargrove demands his money upon hearing that news. Seriously, what possible conclusions can be drawn from that? There are only a couple. And neither one is good. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 K-9 and No Saint, I thought I'd sneak in here for a second and say thianks for a great read by you two. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) I highly doubt the league can't source any of its evidence. The biggest piece being Williams himself as well as other testimony from people inside the Saints' organization. I will need to see retractions before I can simply discount any of that. If all this is just one giant axe to grind between a former coach and the Saints, then how is the league at fault for that? If that turns out to be the case then Vilma et al are going after the wrong party. But as a reasonable person, I need a lot more to convince me that it's just about a disgruntled ex-employee. As to your last sentence, it doesn't matter what, who, or how much to punish fairly. We'd all like to believe it is but Vilma, Fujita, Hargrove, and Smith should have thought about that before they gave Goodell their authority to do so. I'll look forward to Hargrove's comments this afternoon. GO BILLS!!! vilmas statements that just finished with PFT over the lunch hour are asserting that cerullo (sp?) essentially did fabricate the whole thing and is the lynchpin against vilma. at that point vilma still has to get the nfl to acknowledge that the evidence may not be valid, before getting the nfl to re-evaluate his suspension. so those will be hand in hand going forward. if he doesnt have access to the documents the nfl holds, he cant really push to overturn the suspension. the only way to get those documents is to go after goodell. and if a retraction is in those documents - he may still have a case against goodell. i agree that vilma and his lawyer have A TON to prove after their statements - especially those coming at the hearing yesterday, and on pft today. i cant say enough that they have A TON of obligation at this point. it seems pretty far out there, but the fact that they are pushing it so hard, i am curious to see what they think they have to back it. it seems like a bold play if all he has is thin air - much like it would be by the nfl. both sides are pretty high stakes on their claims, so where the truth lies will be very interesting to see. Perhaps Hargrove will answer that this afternoon. What would you have me believe in the meantime based on what we have now which is: Favre out of game. Vitt reports Favre out with broken leg during sideline huddle. Hargrove demands his money upon hearing that news. Seriously, what possible conclusions can be drawn from that? There are only a couple. And neither one is good. GO BILLS!!! but if you include that the play before is mcray hits favre in the leg vitt says favre has broken leg hargrove yells bobby gimme my money my alternate explanation and best guess is.... hargrove knew bobby was getting paid, and wants some money owed to him out of mcrays coming payment that he would be collecting. frankly, it makes more sense to me than hargrove getting 35k for a tackle he didnt make. K-9 and No Saint, I thought I'd sneak in here for a second and say thianks for a great read by you two. Cheers. no prob! honestly, around here (new orleans), i get attacked for not jumping on the bandwagon, and bringing up some of the very points he does. it seems pretty certain that SOMETHING was going on - i mean the pay for picks and big hits etc... was well proven, and previously admitted. id even say im pretty sure that there was money on favres head (barring vilma having some sort of crazy piece of evidence yet to be seen). that said, i dont like how the nfl has gone about it and think there are questions that do deserve to be asked. i also say you guys should check out the slides and such - interesting to see what our former head coach was using during the week in meetings. Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 vilmas statements that just finished with PFT over the lunch hour are asserting that cerullo (sp?) essentially did fabricate the whole thing and is the lynchpin against vilma. at that point vilma still has to get the nfl to acknowledge that the evidence may not be valid, before getting the nfl to re-evaluate his suspension. so those will be hand in hand going forward. if he doesnt have access to the documents the nfl holds, he cant really push to overturn the suspension. the only way to get those documents is to go after goodell. and if a retraction is in those documents - he may still have a case against goodell. i agree that vilma and his lawyer have A TON to prove after their statements - especially those coming at the hearing yesterday, and on pft today. Wow. I don't envy Ginsberg's position here. I think that in addition to proving Cerullo made the whole thing up, he will have to show that Williams' testimony as well as others in the case, was coerced by Goodell. He has the unenviable task of taking the case to a court, proving its merit, and having that court compell Goodell to show the evidence in its entirety. Just to get to a starting point for proving Cerullo fabricated everything as retaliation against the Saints. That is a mother of a road to hoe. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Wow. I don't envy Ginsberg's position here. I think that in addition to proving Cerullo made the whole thing up, he will have to show that Williams' testimony as well as others in the case, was coerced by Goodell. He has the unenviable task of taking the case to a court, proving its merit, and having that court compell Goodell to show the evidence in its entirety. Just to get to a starting point for proving Cerullo fabricated everything as retaliation against the Saints. That is a mother of a road to hoe. GO BILLS!!! yea itll be a mess to sort out - i think the goal is less to get goodell and more to have everything turned over in an early hearing, and in turn get the public on his side to pressure the nfl to re-evaluate. i dont know the legal process on it well enough to really take that guess, but i just did anyway! as a disclaimer - i havent personally watched the pft live, but got a second hand source. the nfl is now claiming Gregg, ornstein, and an unnamed coach (presumably cerullo) were the 3 sources on vilma. vilmas attorney claims 2 of them have recanted the stories (though hasnt said this aspect specifically was recanted, its certainly implied) Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 ...but if you include that the play before is mcray hits favre in the leg vitt says favre has broken leg hargrove yells bobby gimme my money my alternate explanation and best guess is.... hargrove knew bobby was getting paid, and wants some money owed to him out of mcrays coming payment that he would be collecting. frankly, it makes more sense to me than hargrove getting 35k for a tackle he didnt make. Well, NoSaint, that doesn't change anything for me, unfortunately. Like I said, none of what can be concluded about Hargrove's statement, given the context of that video, is good. It all comes down to him thinking he should be paid after hearing Farve was out with a broken leg. Not good for Hargrove. Not good at all. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Well, NoSaint, that doesn't change anything for me, unfortunately. Like I said, none of what can be concluded about Hargrove's statement, given the context of that video, is good. It all comes down to him thinking he should be paid after hearing Farve was out with a broken leg. Not good for Hargrove. Not good at all. GO BILLS!!! i agree, but in hargroves defense, that would hardly be worthy of an 8 game suspension, leaving "lying to an investigator" as the only cause of suspension left im trying to take this out of context of "did the saints mess up" to "why is hargrove suspended and is it fair" on that debate. the hearing yesterday was specifically to those 4 men, not whether something was organizationally wrong - although those two items dont move totally independently obviously. Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 K-9 and No Saint, I thought I'd sneak in here for a second and say thianks for a great read by you two. Cheers. I'd also like to sneak in for a second and say that Drew Brees is a little piece of crap - Joe DeLamielleure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 i agree, but in hargroves defense, that would hardly be worthy of an 8 game suspension, leaving "lying to an investigator" as the only cause of suspension left im trying to take this out of context of "did the saints mess up" to "why is hargrove suspended and is it fair" on that debate. the hearing yesterday was specifically to those 4 men, not whether something was organizationally wrong - although those two items dont move totally independently obviously. You won't like hearing this but again, given the context of that video alone, it could be argued that Hargrove's punishment isn't harsh enough. But it's all moot anyway because Hargrove, assuming he voted FOR the CBA, gave RG his blessing to mete out punishments however he sees fit. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'd also like to sneak in for a second and say that Drew Brees is a little piece of crap - Joe DeLamielleure 19-0 Baby!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) You won't like hearing this but again, given the context of that video alone, it could be argued that Hargrove's punishment isn't harsh enough. But it's all moot anyway because Hargrove, assuming he voted FOR the CBA, gave RG his blessing to mete out punishments however he sees fit. GO BILLS!!! In that case though, dozens of others deserve punishment, if mere knowledge gets 8 games. How does Harper get paid for a "knockout" and get nothing but Hargrove get 8 games? Obviously the CBA leaves all this pointless though, as you reference. Any assertion I'm making would be "if handled ideally" and not what I expect Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnyBacker Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If this had happened in 2000 then I'd say that Rob Johnson was the one carted off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) T minus 15 til the Hargrove statements outside nfl headquarters. Odd timing and certainly a purposeful location. He's tweeting "come one come all" Sounds like he's about to put on a show, and not a heartfelt apology, but who knows. Chris brown did assert he has about 10 distinct people living in his head! Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) T minus 15 til the Hargrove statements outside nfl headquarters. Odd timing and certainly a purposeful location. He's tweeting "come one come all" Sounds like he's about to put on a show, and not a heartfelt apology, but who knows. Chris brown did assert he has about 10 distinct people living in his head! Was hoping NFLN or somebody else would be carrying it but I don't see it anywhere. Keep us posted, NoSaint. GO BILLS!!! Edited June 19, 2012 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Was hoping NFLN or somebody else would be carrying it but I don't see it anywhere. Keep us post, NoSaint. GO BILLS!!! im getting some live updates from someone attending - so far the nuts and bolts have been nfl misused his statement and has twisted perception the entire way. as I get real details, or if something explosive is claimed, ill be sure to update. so far it has been pretty much in line with what you would guess him to say though a tweet going into this - which i thought hargrove already said it was his? maybe not that specific comment? EDIT: he claimed the "favres out, favres done" comments while running around the sideline, not the "give me my money comment" which laconfora nailed he disputes heavily. Jason LaCanfora twitter: I expect Anthony Hargrove will claim, strongly, during his public comments that voice heard talking about payments on a videotape is not his heres my latest updates: "They do not have the proof - I am a victims of a sophisticated mugging. Call out to NFL brothers, do not buy in. Look closer, you have not been told the truth. Trust you can be next person being mugged. Part of the evidence was a DVD of 2010 NFCCG - showed sideline discussions. DVD was not "explosive" or compelling evidence" Thr NFL is very good as what they do. They showed me hitting Favre hit up high- I was flagged and fined. Favre I'm truly sorry. Favre left game - this is where it gets interesting. NFL has video of me off to side on sideline with backs to the camera with caption of give me my money. Here is the problem with that, it wasnt me. The NFL got their evidence wrong - in their rush to convict me they made an error. It was not me. NFL made me out to be a monster. They can't prove it's me. I wonder of RG is willing to stake out their job on this evidence. This is a mockery - who here is willing to put their job on the line on this evidence. Do really care about us? When willing to twist all of this. It's not my voice. We all seen Dog the bounty hunter - its a great show." well, i guess i was right for questioning why hargrove would be saying "give me my money" for a hit he didnt make. it will be interesting to take another look at the tape later to see if it matches up to what hes saying. Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 im getting some live updates from someone attending - so far the nuts and bolts have been nfl misused his statement and has twisted perception the entire way. as I get real details, or if something explosive is claimed, ill be sure to update. so far it has been pretty much in line with what you would guess him to say though a tweet going into this - which i thought hargrove already said it was his? maybe not that specific comment? EDIT: he claimed the "favres out, favres done" comments while running around the sideline, not the "give me my money comment" which laconfora nailed he disputes heavily. Jason LaCanfora twitter: I expect Anthony Hargrove will claim, strongly, during his public comments that voice heard talking about payments on a videotape is not his heres my latest updates: "They do not have the proof - I am a victims of a sophisticated mugging. Call out to NFL brothers, do not buy in. Look closer, you have not been told the truth. Trust you can be next person being mugged. Part of the evidence was a DVD of 2010 NFCCG - showed sideline discussions. DVD was not "explosive" or compelling evidence" Thr NFL is very good as what they do. They showed me hitting Favre hit up high- I was flagged and fined. Favre I'm truly sorry. Favre left game - this is where it gets interesting. NFL has video of me off to side on sideline with backs to the camera with caption of give me my money. Here is the problem with that, it wasnt me. The NFL got their evidence wrong - in their rush to convict me they made an error. It was not me. NFL made me out to be a monster. They can't prove it's me. I wonder of RG is willing to stake out their job on this evidence. This is a mockery - who here is willing to put their job on the line on this evidence. Do really care about us? When willing to twist all of this. It's not my voice. We all seen Dog the bounty hunter - its a great show." Thanks, NoSaint. I didn't think it was possible to add another ring to the circus but he did. "They can't prove it's me." That rings hollow. But who was it that wanted to get paid for knocking Favre out of the game, I wonder? Did the NFL doctor the tape and add that audio to cook their evidence? Wow. Just...wow. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) and thats a wrap. hes done talking. Thanks, NoSaint. I didn't think it was possible to add another ring to the circus but he did. "They can't prove it's me." That rings hollow. But who was it that wanted to get paid for knocking Favre out of the game, I wonder? Did the NFL doctor the tape and add that audio to cook their evidence? Wow. Just...wow. GO BILLS!!! without looking at the tape - my best guess would be mcray saying "baby gimme my money" instead of hargrove talking. i dont have any idea where he is in relation off hand. at that point it could also be someone else that thinks they are about to win the game and get a fat bonus check (my least favorite explanation ive heard, but one that is not bounty related). and i wouldnt put tooooo much stock in wording, as im sure it wasnt verbatim as it was all getting shot out pretty quick during the conference... id be curious for all the people he asked to stake their jobs on it if he would do the same. Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 heres full text: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19384479/anthony-hargroves-statement-on-nfls-evidence-against-saints-players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Well - the circus continues - ornsteins statement: “I never corroborated $10,000,” Ornstein said. “The only thing that I told them was that we had the [pregame] meeting, we jumped around, we screamed around, and I never saw [Vilma] offer one dime. And I never heard him say it.”Ornstein admits that the Saints had a pay-for-performance program in 2009, but he repeatedly denied that he told the NFL that Vilma offered any money knocking any player out of any game. “Did I say to the league that I saw Jonathan Vilma offer $10,000?” Ornstein said. “Absolutely not.” http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/19/ornstein-denies-telling-nfl-that-vilma-offered-money/ someone is coming out of this looking really bad at the end of the day. we will see which side. Edited June 19, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I guess it's all about semantics. Those God-damned semantics. I can't wait to hear from the secret witness that Hargrove is 99% certain ratted out the Saints. It's nice that he isn't telling us who it is because he can't be 100% sure. You can't get this comedy anywhere else. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts