THIS is proof that coaching matters in the NFL

[Got_Wood]

Suspect coaches for the Bills in 2011 - Defensive staff: George Edwards, Bob Sanders, Giff Smith, and George Catavolos. Special Teams staff: Bruce Dehaven and Stan Kwan.

 

Let's just get over the whole "the Bills don't have talent" argument. We have a lot of talent on this team. But our coaches aren't getting the most out of these guys. Most prominently our defensive coaching staff, led by George Edwards. This has been beat to death, but let me validate this point.

 

Buffalo Bills Defense Rank & Coach at the time:

2008: 14th (Fewell)

2009: 16th (Fewell)

2010: 28th (Edwards)

2011: 28th (Edwards)

 

Here are some examples of teams that changed Defensive coaches, and the resulting change of Defensive Rank:

 

Cowboys:

2010: 31st (Pasqualoni)

2011: 12th (Ryan)

 

49ers:

2010: 16th (Manusky)

2011: 1st (Fangio)

 

Texans:

2010: 29th (Bush)

2011: 2nd (Phillips)

 

See the pattern there? They didn't completely overhaul the personnel to make their defense better. It was the leadership, philosophy, and defensive coaching style that made these teams better.

 

Now, the Bills can continue to circle the wagons with mediocre to terrible defenses by cheaping out on Defensive Coordinators. OR they can do their homework, and go out and hire a QUALITY defensive coach. And they might just have to spend a little money to bring a guy in. But if we can spend a few million a year on Brad Smith as a wildcat QB and part time WR, we better be able to spend some money on a quality defensive coordinator.

 

I wrote this out in another thread, but here are some candidates I think would be worth considering:

 

- Steve Spagnuolo (could likely be fired)

- Mike Nolan (the whole Miami staff could be gone soon)

- Keith Butler (likely the next in line in Pittsburgh once Lebeau is retired, but maybe Whaley can work some magic here)

- Jack Del Rio (good defensive coach, at least worth considering)

[Fan in San Diego]

I agree. Make the change.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

There's no question in my mind (and most everyone's) that the Bills D is underachieving their talent level.

 

But the teams you used as examples have much more talent than the Bills.

 

It's not even close.

 

Cowboys, Niners, and Texans?

 

All you have to do is look at the rosters.

 

Yes Edwards and staff have sucked but also, look at what they have to work with.

[G-Daddy]

But we added Wannastach to the fold.......what has he brought to the table defensively this season?

[CBD]

I like Nolan, he's worked with Chan before and they can continue to grow into the 3-4.

[The Big Cat]

There's no question in my mind (and most everyone's) that the Bills D is underachieving their talent level.

 

But the teams you used as examples have much more talent than the Bills.

 

It's not even close.

 

Cowboys, Niners, and Texans?

 

All you have to do is look at the rosters.

 

Yes Edwards and staff have sucked but also, look at what they have to work with.

 

I have to disagree here. Talent wise, we simply are NOT as depleted as you make it sound.

 

We're solid across the front. Barnett is more than capable in the middle, our safeties are the least of our worries. Florence is okay, Williams and Rodgers are both showing promise, McKelvin is a COMPLETE and utter disaster.

 

We're weak at OLB, that's about it.

[jkrules]

There's no question in my mind (and most everyone's) that the Bills D is underachieving their talent level.

 

But the teams you used as examples have much more talent than the Bills.

 

It's not even close.

 

Cowboys, Niners, and Texans?

 

All you have to do is look at the rosters.

 

Yes Edwards and staff have sucked but also, look at what they have to work with.

 

I have to disagree with you on the talent on this team. We do have talent in all areas and with the right coaching and schemes I believe this defense could be much better than they are showing. I agree that the other teams may have more talent but I believe it is a lot closer than you make it out to be.

I also believe that proper coaching can make a huge difference in the attitude that is brought to a game.

[opfball91]

Its about schemes, watch teams throw on us. We run this like, extremely soft zone coverage, which is fine for a 3-4 when you can get pressure to the QB, but given 3-4 comfortable seconds in the pocket all you need to do is get your receiver to the soft spot and lay it in there. How many times have you seen a receiver catch a ball in between 3 Bills defenders, but none of them are there to make the play? Edwards is a god awful excuse for a defensive coordinator and this defense is quite possibly as others have said the worst I've ever seen a Bills defense play. We've definitely had years with less talent, Perry Fewell was working with garbage and he made our defense at least watchable. I honestly cringe when our D comes on the field.

[Got_Wood]

There's no question in my mind (and most everyone's) that the Bills D is underachieving their talent level.

 

But the teams you used as examples have much more talent than the Bills.

 

It's not even close.

 

Cowboys, Niners, and Texans?

 

All you have to do is look at the rosters.

 

Yes Edwards and staff have sucked but also, look at what they have to work with.

 

Agree to disagree. The Cowboys were a MESS on defense before Rob Ryan came in there. What Phillips has done in Houston is just short of a miracle. And no one respected the 49ers defense outside of Patrick Willis last season. Look at the difference in the defensive ranking in ONE YEAR. Coaching makes all the difference my friend.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Got_Wood

[Billsguy]

Suspect coaches for the Bills in 2011 - Defensive staff: George Edwards, Bob Sanders, Giff Smith, and George Catavolos. Special Teams staff: Bruce Dehaven and Stan Kwan.

 

Let's just get over the whole "the Bills don't have talent" argument. We have a lot of talent on this team. But our coaches aren't getting the most out of these guys. Most prominently our defensive coaching staff, led by George Edwards. This has been beat to death, but let me validate this point.

 

Buffalo Bills Defense Rank & Coach at the time:

2008: 14th (Fewell)

2009: 16th (Fewell)

2010: 28th (Edwards)

2011: 28th (Edwards)

 

Here are some examples of teams that changed Defensive coaches, and the resulting change of Defensive Rank:

 

Cowboys:

2010: 31st (Pasqualoni)

2011: 12th (Ryan)

 

49ers:

2010: 16th (Manusky)

2011: 1st (Fangio)

 

Texans:

2010: 29th (Bush)

2011: 2nd (Phillips)

 

See the pattern there? They didn't completely overhaul the personnel to make their defense better. It was the leadership, philosophy, and defensive coaching style that made these teams better.

 

Now, the Bills can continue to circle the wagons with mediocre to terrible defenses by cheaping out on Defensive Coordinators. OR they can do their homework, and go out and hire a QUALITY defensive coach. And they might just have to spend a little money to bring a guy in. But if we can spend a few million a year on Brad Smith as a wildcat QB and part time WR, we better be able to spend some money on a quality defensive coordinator.

 

I wrote this out in another thread, but here are some candidates I think would be worth considering:

 

- Steve Spagnuolo (could likely be fired)

- Mike Nolan (the whole Miami staff could be gone soon)

- Keith Butler (likely the next in line in Pittsburgh once Lebeau is retired, but maybe Whaley can work some magic here)

- Jack Del Rio (good defensive coach, at least worth considering)

 

 

I still don't know why DC Edwards has an NFL job. It defies logic and reason.

 

This is the problem when you hire mediocre talent and expect exceptional results. Chan Gailey's record as head coach in the NFL is 27 wins and 34 losses. His coaching staff is even less qualified.

 

Why is anyone surprised that a mediocre head coach with an inferior coaching staff is having trouble succeeding?

 

The top performing teams often have the following characteristics:

 

1. top notch owner who wants to win above everything else

2. quality GM and organization

3. quality head coach and coaching staff

4. quality QB

5. quality defense

 

How do the Bills measure up using these criteria?

 

Fail on all counts to varying degrees.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I was gonna agree to disagree with Big Cat but now that there's a group who think the difference in talent between the Bills vs the Cowboys, Niners and Texans is not significant, I'd better reply in more detail.

 

I think the other 3 teams are more defensively talented than the Bills but particularly at one position.

 

IMO the Bills major area of defensive weakness is the (in)ability to rush the passer. Secondly we are decent against straight-ahead runs but very weak on runs to the edges.

 

Basically our biggest defensive weakness is at OLB. I won't waste time going through the entire defenses… I'll just focus on OLB.

 

Dallas is probably the weakest defense of the other 3 teams mentioned above. Their outside linebackers are DeMarcus Ware who some believe is the best pass rusher in the NFL right now. Clearly he's one of the best. Just adding him to the Bills D would make them a much better team. Their other OLB is Anthony Spencer, a 2007 1st rounder with 21.5 career sacks. The Bills simply have no one even approaching these Dallas guys.

 

In San Francisco, their OLBs are Ahmad Brooks who was a talented and troubled risk pick by Cinci in 2006 (first round talent taken in the 3rd round). He's straightened himself out and despite having only 19.5 career sacks, is a very good pass rusher and very stout at the point. He has 6 sacks this year so far. On the other side they start Parys Haralson who has 21.5 career sacks but they give lots of playing time to prize rookie Aldon Smith (who I liked better than Robert Quinn). As a situational pass rusher, Smith has 11 sacks… as a rookie. All three of these players are better than any OLB on the Bills.

 

On Houston, their starting OLBs were Mario Williams who was drafted first overall in 2006. He had 5 sacks in 5 games before being placed on IR. Their other OLB is Connor Barwin the 2009 2nd rounder who already has 10 sacks this year. Barwin had 3.5 sacks in a promising rookie season but lost all of 2010 to injury. However he was drafted as a pass rusher (although he also played TE in college). When Mario Williams went down, that gave prize rookie (2nd round) Brooks Reed playing time. As a rookie, Reed has 6 sacks. Again, these 3 players are all much better than what the Bills have at OLB.

 

Now you can say that it's coaching and not talent, but all of these guys except for Haralson were highly drafted and all had good production as players before their current defensive coordinators came aboard.

 

If the Bills had even a decent pass rush, they probably would have won 2 more games to this point. Trying to win games when the opposing QB has all day to throw is a sure recipe for defeat.

Edited December 12, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Got_Wood]

I was gonna agree to disagree with Big Cat but now that there's a group who think the difference in talent between the Bills vs the Cowboys, Niners and Texans is not significant, I'd better reply in more detail.

 

I think the other 3 teams are more defensively talented than the Bills but particularly at one position.

 

IMO the Bills major area of defensive weakness is the (in)ability to rush the passer. Secondly we are decent against straight-ahead runs but very weak on runs to the edges.

 

Basically our biggest defensive weakness is at OLB. I won't waste time going through the entire defenses… I'll just focus on OLB.

 

Dallas is probably the weakest defense of the other 3 teams mentioned above. Their outside linebackers are DeMarcus Ware who some believe is the best pass rusher in the NFL right now. Clearly he's one of the best. Just adding him to the Bills D would make them a much better team. Their other OLB is Anthony Spencer, a 2007 1st rounder with 21.5 career sacks. The Bills simply have no one even approaching these Dallas guys.

 

In San Francisco, their OLBs are Ahmad Brooks who was a talented and troubled risk pick by Cinci in 2006 (first round talent taken in the 3rd round). He's straightened himself out and despite having only 19.5 career sacks, is a very good pass rusher and very stout at the point. He has 6 sacks this year so far. On the other side they start Parys Haralson who has 21.5 career sacks but they give lots of playing time to prize rookie Aldon Smith (who I liked better than Robert Quinn). As a situational pass rusher, Smith has 11 sacks… as a rookie. All three of these players are better than any OLB on the Bills.

 

On Houston, their starting OLBs were Mario Williams who was drafted first overall in 2006. He had 5 sacks in 5 games before being placed on IR. Their other OLB is Connor Barwin the 2009 2nd rounder who already has 10 sacks this year. Barwin had 3.5 sacks in a promising rookie season but lost all of 2010 to injury. However he was drafted as a pass rusher (although he also played TE in college). When Mario Williams went down, that gave prize rookie (2nd round) Brooks Reed playing time. As a rookie, Reed has 6 sacks. Again, these 3 players are all much better than what the Bills have at OLB.

 

Now you can say that it's coaching and not talent, but all of these guys except for Haralson were highly drafted and all had good production as players before their current defensive coordinators came aboard.

 

If the Bills had even a decent pass rush, they probably would have won 2 more games to this point. Trying to win games when the opposing QB has all day to throw is a sure recipe for defeat.

 

Well, here's my reply to this. Nix decided it was OK to keep 4 MLB's on the roster (Barnett, Sheppard, Morrison, Davis), and only 2 actual OLB's. One in Merriman, who hasn't played a full season in years. And the other in Moats, who is a late round pick that is extremely inexperienced and unproven.

 

It was Edwards defense to build. He, Nix, and Gailey put this group together. And now they've got Kelsay and Johnson completely out of position in this so called "hybrid" defense. BAD decision making, and BAD coaching.

 

Well, here's my reply to this. Nix decided it was OK to keep 4 MLB's on the roster (Barnett, Sheppard, Morrison, Davis), and only 2 actual OLB's. One in Merriman, who hasn't played a full season in years. And the other in Moats, who is a late round pick that is extremely inexperienced and unproven.

 

It was Edwards defense to build. He, Nix, and Gailey put this group together. And now they've got Kelsay and Johnson completely out of position in this so called "hybrid" defense. And Moats started off the season at MLB!!! BAD decision making, and BAD coaching.

[dave mcbride]

I have to disagree here. Talent wise, we simply are NOT as depleted as you make it sound.

 

We're solid across the front. Barnett is more than capable in the middle, our safeties are the least of our worries. Florence is okay, Williams and Rodgers are both showing promise, McKelvin is a COMPLETE and utter disaster.

 

We're weak at OLB, that's about it.

Not disagreeing with your general point, but Florence has been one of the worst CBs in the league this year. Balls thrown his way have resulted in a 70 percent-plus completion rate.

[The Big Cat]

I was gonna agree to disagree with Big Cat but now that there's a group who think the difference in talent between the Bills vs the Cowboys, Niners and Texans is not significant, I'd better reply in more detail.

 

I think the other 3 teams are more defensively talented than the Bills but particularly at one position.

 

IMO the Bills major area of defensive weakness is the (in)ability to rush the passer. Secondly we are decent against straight-ahead runs but very weak on runs to the edges.

 

Basically our biggest defensive weakness is at OLB. I won't waste time going through the entire defenses… I'll just focus on OLB.

 

Dallas is probably the weakest defense of the other 3 teams mentioned above. Their outside linebackers are DeMarcus Ware who some believe is the best pass rusher in the NFL right now. Clearly he's one of the best. Just adding him to the Bills D would make them a much better team. Their other OLB is Anthony Spencer, a 2007 1st rounder with 21.5 career sacks. The Bills simply have no one even approaching these Dallas guys.

 

In San Francisco, their OLBs are Ahmad Brooks who was a talented and troubled risk pick by Cinci in 2006 (first round talent taken in the 3rd round). He's straightened himself out and despite having only 19.5 career sacks, is a very good pass rusher and very stout at the point. He has 6 sacks this year so far. On the other side they start Parys Haralson who has 21.5 career sacks but they give lots of playing time to prize rookie Aldon Smith (who I liked better than Robert Quinn). As a situational pass rusher, Smith has 11 sacks… as a rookie. All three of these players are better than any OLB on the Bills.

 

On Houston, their starting OLBs were Mario Williams who was drafted first overall in 2006. He had 5 sacks in 5 games before being placed on IR. Their other OLB is Connor Barwin the 2009 2nd rounder who already has 10 sacks this year. Barwin had 3.5 sacks in a promising rookie season but lost all of 2010 to injury. However he was drafted as a pass rusher (although he also played TE in college). When Mario Williams went down, that gave prize rookie (2nd round) Brooks Reed playing time. As a rookie, Reed has 6 sacks. Again, these 3 players are all much better than what the Bills have at OLB.

 

Now you can say that it's coaching and not talent, but all of these guys except for Haralson were highly drafted and all had good production as players before their current defensive coordinators came aboard.

 

If the Bills had even a decent pass rush, they probably would have won 2 more games to this point. Trying to win games when the opposing QB has all day to throw is a sure recipe for defeat.

 

Hahaha, so based on my post: "We're weak at OLB, and that's about it" did you want to disagree with??

 

Granted, as your well crafted post indicates, the extremes to which we are weak are just that...extreme, but the nonetheless, position by position, elsewhere on the field we're really not that bad.

 

BUT: Coaching factors into this scenario because Gailey has said, and it's quite clear from defensive play calling, that they're trying to get by with pressure from the front four. That's fine (See: NYG), but when your front four does nothing but run straight ahead EVERY down, then they're insanely easy to stop and the pass rush becomes virtually nonexistent.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Hahaha, so based on my post: "We're weak at OLB, and that's about it" did you want to disagree with??

I believe the Bills are deficient in other areas defensively also… but it would make too long a discussion.

 

And as I've posted many times, the defensive coaching is lousy.

 

 

[Kipers Hair]

Suspect coaches for the Bills in 2011 - Defensive staff: George Edwards, Bob Sanders, Giff Smith, and George Catavolos. Special Teams staff: Bruce Dehaven and Stan Kwan.

 

Let's just get over the whole "the Bills don't have talent" argument. We have a lot of talent on this team. But our coaches aren't getting the most out of these guys. Most prominently our defensive coaching staff, led by George Edwards. This has been beat to death, but let me validate this point.

 

Buffalo Bills Defense Rank & Coach at the time:

2008: 14th (Fewell)

2009: 16th (Fewell)

2010: 28th (Edwards)

2011: 28th (Edwards)

 

Here are some examples of teams that changed Defensive coaches, and the resulting change of Defensive Rank:

 

Cowboys:

2010: 31st (Pasqualoni)

2011: 12th (Ryan)

 

49ers:

2010: 16th (Manusky)

2011: 1st (Fangio)

 

Texans:

2010: 29th (Bush)

2011: 2nd (Phillips)

 

See the pattern there? They didn't completely overhaul the personnel to make their defense better. It was the leadership, philosophy, and defensive coaching style that made these teams better.

 

Now, the Bills can continue to circle the wagons with mediocre to terrible defenses by cheaping out on Defensive Coordinators. OR they can do their homework, and go out and hire a QUALITY defensive coach. And they might just have to spend a little money to bring a guy in. But if we can spend a few million a year on Brad Smith as a wildcat QB and part time WR, we better be able to spend some money on a quality defensive coordinator.

 

I wrote this out in another thread, but here are some candidates I think would be worth considering:

 

- Steve Spagnuolo (could likely be fired)

- Mike Nolan (the whole Miami staff could be gone soon)

- Keith Butler (likely the next in line in Pittsburgh once Lebeau is retired, but maybe Whaley can work some magic here)

- Jack Del Rio (good defensive coach, at least worth considering)

You're absolutely right - good coaches take the talent they have and deploy it in a way to get the most out of it...and hopefully win. I know St Tebow gets most of the credit - but John Fox should be coach of the year - the ship was sinking and he installed an offense not seen in the NFL for 30 years because that was the only was they had a chance to win. If Tebow was in Buffalo - this message board would be shouting for his head because he would suck in Chan's spread offense....

[San Jose Bills Fan]

You're absolutely right - good coaches take the talent they have and deploy it in a way to get the most out of it...and hopefully win. I know St Tebow gets most of the credit - but John Fox should be coach of the year - the ship was sinking and he installed an offense not seen in the NFL for 30 years because that was the only was they had a chance to win. If Tebow was in Buffalo - this message board would be shouting for his head because he would suck in Chan's spread offense....

Ummm… I understand the feelings and I've also criticized Gailey's coaching of late.

 

But you're not being quite fair.

 

When he was OC in Kansas City, Gailey resurrected the "Pistol Offense" which is a modified shotgun. He did so because he was down to his 3rd string QB (the infamous Tyler Thigpen) and it was an offense that Thigpen ran in college.

 

Gailey was actually able to extract some productivity out of Thigpen and The Pistol.

 

Point is, Gailey has shown in the past, that he can be flexible and innovative when necessary.

 

There's actually evidence that Gailey would be able to build an offense for Tebow.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like he's been coaching very well recently.

Edited December 12, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[The Big Cat]

Ummm… I understand the feelings and I've also criticized Gailey's coaching of late.

 

But you're not being quite fair.

 

When he was OC in Kansas City, Gailey resurrected the "Pistol Offense" which is a modified shotgun. He did so because he was down to his 3rd string QB (the infamous Tyler Thigpen) and it was an offense that Thigpen ran in college.

 

Gailey was actually able to extract some productivity out of Thigpen and The Pistol.

 

Point is, Gailey has shown in the past, that he can be flexible and innovative when necessary.

 

There's actually evidence that Gailey would be able to build an offense for Tebow.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like he's been coaching very well recently.

 

Then may be Gailey simply has his hands full as a DC and should be bumped back to OC.

[NoSaint]

well, id have to disagree on most fronts.

 

demarcus ware would make this a serviceable defense.

 

patrick willis would go a long way to making it one.

 

the texans added several picks early (watt, brooks reed etc...), free agents(joseph), and switched to a 34. They also had a lot of talented players (williams, cushing, smith). id call that a pretty complete overhaul, contrary to the OP. further, they had a huge weakness with an otherwise strong unit (pass defense) and added a premier corner to solve that problem. if we get a similar fill for our OLB issues, i think we jump a lot.

 

 

coaching can make a big difference. but we are severely outmanned by all three of those.

Edited December 12, 2011 by NoSaint

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Then may be Gailey simply has his hands full as a DC and should be bumped back to OC.

Not sure what you're saying, BC.

 

Maybe he should hire a legitimate offensive coordinator.

 

You don't really think he'd accept a demotion to work under the new Head Coach?

Edited December 12, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan