Top 5 at his position

[disco]

Jason Peters. And how did the Bills handle it? They spent a combined $70 million on Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker, leaving the team's best player grossly underpaid on his own line. A winning organization would never do such a thing.

 

Can't agree on Peters. He simply didn't want to be here. Don't forget the Bills traded him for 3 draft picks that resulted in Eric Wood, Shawn Nelson, and Danny Batten. As trades go, that one actually worked out fine.

[truth on hold]

Can't agree on Peters. He simply didn't want to be here. Don't forget the Bills traded him for 3 draft picks that resulted in Eric Wood, Shawn Nelson, and Danny Batten. As trades go, that one actually worked out fine.

Peters was definitely top 5 LT. More highly regarded than Wood. Id say best case is Wood reaches the same level, dont see him exceeding it. Especially after 2 season ending injuries. Nelson is gone and Batten has a long way to go, so not sure I agree with the rest of this post.

[disco]

Peters was definitely top 5 LT. More highly regarded than Wood. Id say best case is Wood reaches the same level, dont see him exceeding it. Especially after 2 season ending injuries. Nelson is gone and Batten has a long way to go, so not sure I agree with the rest of this post.

 

Haha ok I admit I was thinking it was David Nelson when I wrote that. yug. My point really was that Peters wasn't going to play in Buffalo again, and at least we got Wood who is one of the few positive draft picks in the last few years.

[Dawgg]

Can't agree on Peters. He simply didn't want to be here.

You're 100% wrong. The only reason Peters didn't want to be here is because the Bills didn't treat him fairly!!! He developed into a Pro Bowl caliber tackle and was widely recognized as an up and coming star. The Bills then proceed to bring in Langston Walker and Derrick Dockery, signing the latter to the richest contract in Buffalo sports history. It would be one thing if they had signed studs and paid them as such (like Steinbach, etc); instead, the front office, in typical fashion, grossly overpaid for mediocre talent.

 

A little history lesson to offer you some perspective. When the Bills re-signed Kelsay to a rich extension back in 2006, they paid him more than Schobel. To accommodate that, they ripped Schobel's contract and signed him to an even more lucrative extension paying him like one of the top DE's in the league. Why didn't they offer that courtesy to Peters? Bottom line: Peters was mistreated and it's no wonder he wanted out. Had the Bills simply paid him what he was worth, he'd have happily signed the dotted line.

 

Don't forget the Bills traded him for 3 draft picks that resulted in Eric Wood, Shawn Nelson, and Danny Batten. As trades go, that one actually worked out fine.

Yawn. An injury-prone center a scrub Tight End and a scrub Linebacker. I'm sure Philly would make that trade any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[boyst]

You're 100% wrong. The only reason Peters didn't want to be here is because the Bills didn't treat him fairly!!! He developed into a Pro Bowl caliber tackle and was widely recognized as an up and coming star. The Bills then proceed to bring in Langston Walker and Derrick Dockery, signing the latter to the richest contract in Buffalo sports history. It would be one thing if they had signed studs and paid them as such (like Steinbach, etc); instead, the front office, in typical fashion, grossly overpaid for mediocre talent.

 

A little history lesson to offer you some perspective. When the Bills re-signed Kelsay to a rich extension back in 2006, they paid him more than Schobel. To accommodate that, they ripped Schobel's contract and signed him to an even more lucrative extension paying him like one of the top DE's in the league. Why didn't they offer that courtesy to Peters? Bottom line: Peters was mistreated and it's no wonder he wanted out. Had the Bills simply paid him what he was worth, he'd have happily signed the dotted line.

 

 

Yawn. An injury-prone center a scrub Tight End and a scrub Linebacker. I'm sure Philly would make that trade any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

At least someone gets what Peters meant to this team. He might be our best player in the last 10 years.

[billsfreak]

Peters was definitely top 5 LT. More highly regarded than Wood. Id say best case is Wood reaches the same level, dont see him exceeding it. Especially after 2 season ending injuries. Nelson is gone and Batten has a long way to go, so not sure I agree with the rest of this post.

Top 5 LT's don't lead the entire NFL in sacks given up, like he did his last year in Buffalo. They also don't lead the league in penalties among LT's like he did his first year in Philly. He was good, but not as good as he thought he was. We came out on the better end of the deal. He wanted a new deal every other year here, he was lazy and there was no pleasing him. He was less of a team player then anyone on that roster.

 

You're 100% wrong. The only reason Peters didn't want to be here is because the Bills didn't treat him fairly!!! He developed into a Pro Bowl caliber tackle and was widely recognized as an up and coming star. The Bills then proceed to bring in Langston Walker and Derrick Dockery, signing the latter to the richest contract in Buffalo sports history. It would be one thing if they had signed studs and paid them as such (like Steinbach, etc); instead, the front office, in typical fashion, grossly overpaid for mediocre talent.

 

A little history lesson to offer you some perspective. When the Bills re-signed Kelsay to a rich extension back in 2006, they paid him more than Schobel. To accommodate that, they ripped Schobel's contract and signed him to an even more lucrative extension paying him like one of the top DE's in the league. Why didn't they offer that courtesy to Peters? Bottom line: Peters was mistreated and it's no wonder he wanted out. Had the Bills simply paid him what he was worth, he'd have happily signed the dotted line.

 

 

Yawn. An injury-prone center a scrub Tight End and a scrub Linebacker. I'm sure Philly would make that trade any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And they got a lazy, "all about me" tackle who hasn't played in all 16 games since 2006. He is as injury prone as anyone.

[San-O]

I would say there are three on the Bills right now, unfortunately all three are now on the IR list: Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, and Eric Wood . . . which of course, also explains one big reason why you go from 4-1 to 5-5.

 

You lose Kyle Williams and all of the sudden you're giving up 30+ points to the Dolphins and Jets?

 

The Bills have scored 26 points in the last 3 games combined.

 

Teams have figured out Gailey and Edwards doesn't seem to HAVE anything to figure out.

[disco]

You're 100% wrong. The only reason Peters didn't want to be here is because the Bills didn't treat him fairly!!! He developed into a Pro Bowl caliber tackle and was widely recognized as an up and coming star. The Bills then proceed to bring in Langston Walker and Derrick Dockery, signing the latter to the richest contract in Buffalo sports history. It would be one thing if they had signed studs and paid them as such (like Steinbach, etc); instead, the front office, in typical fashion, grossly overpaid for mediocre talent.

 

A little history lesson to offer you some perspective. When the Bills re-signed Kelsay to a rich extension back in 2006, they paid him more than Schobel. To accommodate that, they ripped Schobel's contract and signed him to an even more lucrative extension paying him like one of the top DE's in the league. Why didn't they offer that courtesy to Peters? Bottom line: Peters was mistreated and it's no wonder he wanted out. Had the Bills simply paid him what he was worth, he'd have happily signed the dotted line.

 

 

Yawn. An injury-prone center a scrub Tight End and a scrub Linebacker. I'm sure Philly would make that trade any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

No, I'm not 100% wrong. You know how I know I'm right? Because he's in Philly right now. If he wanted to be in Buffalo, he would be in Buffalo. You don't agree to a new 5 year deal in 2006 and decided after 2007 you want yet another new contract to make you the top paid LT in football.

 

And by the way, no, they shouldn't have made him the top paid LT in football.

[maddenboy]

Last night, I was thinking that the Bills are like one of the NFL's Farm Teams. (Along with teams like Seattle, detroit). Let them draft whoever they want, and if anybody seems promising, then let the Farm Team trade them to a real team.

 

It reminded me of a post on here last year, where a guy said "all the Bills do is train other teams' future stars."

 

Or as I heard a mid-40s unmarried woman say about her many failed relationships, "i'm tired of training other people's husbands."

 

----

 

Again, back to the main point of this post: Smart teams draft talent, talent, talent. And develop it like its the Prime Directive. Then, down the line, draft a couple "need" players when they are on the cusp of Superbowl contention.

 

But the bills keep drafting band-aid "need" players. When you are a perennial sucky team, how the hell do you think you have "need" positions? When you need EVERYTHING, you dont draft for need. Stupid.

[disco]

Last night, I was thinking that the Bills are like one of the NFL's Farm Teams. (Along with teams like Seattle, detroit). Let them draft whoever they want, and if anybody seems promising, then let the Farm Team trade them to a real team.

 

It reminded me of a post on here last year, where a guy said "all the Bills do is train other teams' future stars."

 

Or as I heard a mid-40s unmarried woman say about her many failed relationships, "i'm tired of training other people's husbands."

 

----

 

Again, back to the main point of this post: Smart teams draft talent, talent, talent. And develop it like its the Prime Directive. Then, down the line, draft a couple "need" players when they are on the cusp of Superbowl contention.

 

But the bills keep drafting band-aid "need" players. When you are a perennial sucky team, how the hell do you think you have "need" positions? When you need EVERYTHING, you dont draft for need. Stupid.

 

I assume you're mostly referring to their tendency to take first round RBs? You think that was the case with this year's draft?

[RuntheDamnBall]

I think Levitre is a top-5 LG that we for some reason tried as a bottom-12 offensive center.

[maddenboy]

I assume you're mostly referring to their tendency to take first round RBs? You think that was the case with this year's draft?

 

No, not their tendency to take first round RBs. Which is so very stupid anyway.

 

As the original title of this topic suggests, We either dont draft right, or dont develop right, at any position. I mean, our only top 5 player is a RB, that wasnt even drafted at all, and was developed in another league.

 

If there are 18 positions, times 5 players, that's 90 top guys in the league. Why dont we have any? Or we have kinda 1 or 2 kinda sorta, but not really. And we dont have any that are truly in-arguable. Larry Fitzgerald, inarguable. Darelle Revis, inarguable. James Harrison, inarguable.

 

Freddy Jackson? Arguable. (Peterson, Ray Rice, Shady McCoy, Chris Johnson, Arian Foster, Matt Forte, Darren McFadden, Maurice Jones-Drew). Its at least arguable for Freddie. Kyle Williams? (Ngata, Raji, Wilfork, Suh, . . . Kyle?)

 

I think Levitre is a top-5 LG that we for some reason tried as a bottom-12 offensive center.

 

As to Levitre, my point is that Bills fans think he's a good pick, and going to be a good player, but are you ready to say, for SURE, that for most Personnel people, there arent 5 guys they would rather have than Levitre? A simple google search found, as the first result, a top 10 list of guards that doesnt contain Levitre:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/top-10-guards-in-n-f-l/

 

And here's the list of top 10 Left Guards:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/best-left-guards-in-the-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

 

Whether or not you agree, it sure looks like a very big argument to me.

Edited November 26, 2011 by maddenboy

[disco]

No, not their tendency to take first round RBs. Which is so very stupid anyway.

 

As the original title of this topic suggests, We either dont draft right, or dont develop right, at any position. I mean, our only top 5 player is a RB, that wasnt even drafted at all, and was developed in another league.

 

If there are 18 positions, times 5 players, that's 90 top guys in the league. Why dont we have any? Or we have kinda 1 or 2 kinda sorta, but not really. And we dont have any that are truly in-arguable. Larry Fitzgerald, inarguable. Darelle Revis, inarguable. James Harrison, inarguable.

 

Freddy Jackson? Arguable. (Peterson, Ray Rice, Shady McCoy, Chris Johnson, Arian Foster, Matt Forte, Darren McFadden). Its at least arguable for Freddie. Kyle Williams? (Ngata, Raji, Wilfork, Suh, . . . Kyle?)

 

As to Levitre, my point is that Bills fans think he's a good pick, and going to be a good player, but are you ready to say, for SURE, that for most Personnel people, there arent 5 guys they would rather have than Levitre? A simple google search found, as the first result, a top 10 list of guards that doesnt contain Levitre:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/top-10-guards-in-n-f-l/

 

And here's the list of top 10 Left Guards:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/best-left-guards-in-the-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

 

Whether or not you agree, it sure looks like a very big argument to me.

 

Well you can't hang the history of the Bills on Nix, you can only look at the current regime. Nix has two drafts under his belt:

2010-

1(09) - CJ Spiller - Questionable, but not necessarily a reach on anybody's board at #9. Also, is more in the best player available argument

2(41) - Torell Troup

3(72) - Alex Carrington - He's been OK

4(107) - Marcus Easley - Not sure if you can blame health issues on Nix or not

5(140) - Ed Wang - Bust

6(178) - Arthur Moats - Promising, esp for 6th rounder

6(192) - Danny Batten - Promising, esp in preseason not that it means much

7(209) - Levi Brown - Project

7(216) - Kyle Calloway - Didn't make it

 

2011-

1(3) - Marcell Dareus - I think the consensus correct pick in this spot, plus filled the need.

2(34) - Aaron Williams - Fills need, not sure of quality yet

3(68) - Kelvin Sheppard - Looked good last week actually

4(100) - Da'Norris Searcy - I've only seen him play last week, where he looked ok

4(122) - Chris Hairston - Looked good filling in for Bell. Really missed him when he went down.

5(133) - Johnny White - Haven't seen much, pretty buried behind Fred/Spiller

6(169) - Chris White - Can't recall seeing much of him

7(206) - Justin Rogers - Can't recall seeing much of him

7(245) - Michael Jasper - Seemed like a good project pick

 

These drafts seem fair to me, even with some hindsight in mind. Do you have specific issues with them? The biggest complaint I recall is him not drafting a QB, including from me. But until the last few weeks it looked like that was incorrect given Fitz's play. Maybe it's not. Not to mention he was ready to take Newton if he was available.

 

Not really arguing with your point here, just wondering if there's something specific you'd point to. I mostly like the focus on defense I think.

[Dawgg]

No, I'm not 100% wrong. You know how I know I'm right? Because he's in Philly right now. If he wanted to be in Buffalo, he would be in Buffalo. You don't agree to a new 5 year deal in 2006 and decided after 2007 you want yet another new contract to make you the top paid LT in football.

 

And by the way, no, they shouldn't have made him the top paid LT in football.

You're still 100% wrong. In order to remain in Buffalo he would have had to play for a grossly underpaid salary – so low, that he wasn't even in the top 2 offensive linemen on this team.

 

The Bills ripped up Schobel's deal when he still had 3 years left because they recognized that Kelsay's new deal would make our best defensive end underpaid.

 

The Bills should have extended a similar courtesy to Peters. Only after they refused to do so did Peters want out. If you interpret that has "not wanting to play in Buffalo," you're not particularly bright... but that's OK, you fit in great here

[RuntheDamnBall]

As to Levitre, my point is that Bills fans think he's a good pick, and going to be a good player, but are you ready to say, for SURE, that for most Personnel people, there arent 5 guys they would rather have than Levitre? A simple google search found, as the first result, a top 10 list of guards that doesnt contain Levitre:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/top-10-guards-in-n-f-l/

 

And here's the list of top 10 Left Guards:

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/best-left-guards-in-the-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

 

Whether or not you agree, it sure looks like a very big argument to me.

How about this: replacing or extending Levitre right now would both require top-5 money. I think he's in that conversation already.

[Dawgg]

How about this: replacing or extending Levitre right now would both require top-5 money. I think he's in that conversation already.

If Chan would allow him to stay at that position permanently, develop his game and play guard consistently rather than jerking him around to be the backup tackle and de-facto center, then I would agree.

[maddenboy]

How about this: replacing or extending Levitre right now would both require top-5 money. I think he's in that conversation already.

 

Yes, that is an argument for Levitre. But if true/accurate (and it might not be), its because of upside, more than where he actually is as a player right now.

 

I'm talking about right now. Show game film of all LGs to all coaches and ask them to rank the players. Not sure we have anybody who would crack anyone's top 5 (assuming coaches cant vote for their own players).

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse here. Just the fact that there are arguments to be made about our players is what proves the point.

 

I bet Steelers fans dont debate whether Polamalu (sp?) is a top 5 safety. Texans fans dont go back-and-forth over Andre Johnson. The last time we had such a player was . . . probably Ruben Brown. All the others mentioned here (Peters, Clements, Moulds) were at least debatable.

 

Why? Why why why?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Yes, that is an argument for Levitre. But if true/accurate (and it might not be), its because of upside, more than where he actually is as a player right now.

 

I'm talking about right now. Show game film of all LGs to all coaches and ask them to rank the players. Not sure we have anybody who would crack anyone's top 5 (assuming coaches cant vote for their own players).

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse here. Just the fact that there are arguments to be made about our players is what proves the point.

 

I bet Steelers fans dont debate whether Polamalu (sp?) is a top 5 safety. Texans fans dont go back-and-forth over Andre Johnson. The last time we had such a player was . . . probably Ruben Brown. All the others mentioned here (Peters, Clements, Moulds) were at least debatable.

 

Why? Why why why?

Lots of "ifs," I'll acknowledge. However, consider if the Bills' season had actually continued injury-free on the offensive line with Levitre and Wood in their opening-day positions, where they were being talked about as Pro Bowlers and mid-season All-Pros. The lack of respect and visibility for some of these guys tends to coincide with the poor supporting cast as well as both freak and preventable injuries. If the season had stayed on the tracks for these guys, they might have been getting top-5 notice. I still think Wood is top-12, and Levitre is higher-up in that conversation. The lists you posted pre-date the season, and I think we saw top-5 play from Levitre before he was asked to shuffle.

 

You're right about Polamalu - maybe Dareus turns out to be one of "those guys" for us - an undeniable presence who must be accounted for and is top-5 bar none. AJ I'd say is actually arguable for some of the same reasons we've mentioned - an inability to stay healthy enough to put together a full campaign and be part of a playoff puzzle. He's an astonishingly good receiver, but today's game doesn't make it easy for a guy. Gone are the days where a WR can make a living without getting hit, like Jerry Rice did.

[Big Turk]

I would say unless you include kickers and punters, it has been almost 15 years since we had a top five at any position, where as Moorman would have qualified for a few years a little while back. Freddie was having a great season, but he still would have been outside the top 5 at RB. Sadly, we have had way more bottom 5 players at positions then top 5. Williams can be great, but doesn't have the resume to be top 5 yet, maybe top 8-10.

 

Freddie would have led the NFL in yards from scrimmage, and possibly in rushing. How does that not qualify as top 5?

[White Linen]

You don't win by having more guys that are top 5 at their position than other teams. I'd have to go through each roster but I would say 95% of the teams don't have more than 5 guys that are the top 5 at their position.