A Model Worth Following

[blzrul]

So, the famous "No Child Left Behind" Act, patterned on the TX system that was supposed to be such a huge success (ha) turns out to be nothing more than the usual emty Bushspeak. Turns out that some of the schools may have cheated to inflate their scores.

 

Tsk tsk. Well, those of you who like to search back on my posts will find at least one, and probably more, that discuss how the schools in TX look "good" because the bar is lowered and that students who go to those schools are invariably behind when they get out of TX.

 

I'll bet TX isn't the only state. I guess when you receive edicts to meet standards but no funding to do so, and the alternative is to lose more funding if you can't comply, you get desperate. I don't condone it. However I wish we treated our schools as well as, say, our defense contractors and such. Those folks are fat, dumb and happy while are kids are just going to fat and dumb.

 

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[jimshiz]

I work for a Defense Contractor and the people I work with are neither "fat" nor "dumb". We Thank God that we can do our part as engineers and managers to contribute to the best military in the entire world. We take pride in the fact that our systems were used to allow us to overrun the enemy with so few casualties as compared to wars in the past. We work our butts off and we don't have any "sweetheart deals".

 

As for the schools in Texas, if they are "cheating", then those responsible for the "cheating" are in the wrong and NOBODY else. If "No Child Left Behind" is "broke", then "mend it, don't end it".

[RkFast]

So, the famous "No Child Left Behind" Act, patterned on the TX system that was supposed to be such a huge success (ha) turns out to be nothing more than the usual emty Bushspeak. Turns out that some of the schools may have cheated to inflate their scores.

 

 

 

Tsk tsk. Well, those of you who like to search back on my posts will find at least one, and probably more, that discuss how the schools in TX look "good" because the bar is lowered and that students who go to those schools are invariably behind when they get out of TX.

 

I'll bet TX isn't the only state. I guess when you receive edicts to meet standards but no funding to do so, and the alternative is to lose more funding if you can't comply, you get desperate. I don't condone it. However I wish we treated our schools as well as, say, our defense contractors and such. Those folks are fat, dumb and happy while are kids are just going to fat and dumb.

 

 

DAMN that Bush for trying to raise the bar with public schools! Whether or not the system works, you rail against the idea that GWB even TRIED. All of Clinton's programs work out? How's Hillary's HEalth Care initiative doing?

 

And those comments come from someone who lives in one of the cradles of the defense industry. Thats pretty much all you need to know about ole Deb.

 

Youre a good man, Jim. So are the people you work for. Unfortunately, in this country, all the ingrates must be protected, too.

[Mickey]

I am sure their are good defense contractors and bad ones. It is not as if the Defense Department has never been ripped off. With procurements in the billions, you can bet there is corruption enough to go around. There is no need however to condemn all for the sins of a few.

 

I do think there is an interesting link between education and defense. Obviously, technology plays a major role in the strength of our forces. To continue to have the best technology we need two things, brains and money. The old guns or butter analogy doesn't work. They are dependent on one another. Sooner or later a weak economy and/or a weak education system will lead to a weak military. I know it is natural to think that our forces are superior because our troops are braver and stronger. Maybe they are but having the best weapons, tactics and training doesn't hurt. Economically however, there is a level of military investment that simply can't be sustained. Ask the Soviet Union about that. Are we there yet? Probably not but it is foolish to think that a body politic that punishes every leader who suggests limits to military investment and rewards those who are always willing to spend more on weapons will not cross that line when it comes to it.

 

The idealogical appetite of a large portion of the electorate for more military spending, always more, more, more, is insatiable. Logically, that has to eventually lead to ruin.

[KRC]

All problems can be solved by just spending more money.

[Mickey]

All problems can be solved by just spending more money. 

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You get what you pay for.

Not all problems, but quite a few. For example, if you live in a school district that spends 4,000 per pupil but does a lousy job, you might solve that by moving into a district that spends 18,000 per pupil that, with those kinds of resources, does a bang up job. Of course, you would have to be able to afford to live in that district which takes money. Within reason, money matters.

[KRC]

You get what you pay for.

Not all problems, but quite a few.  For example, if you live in a school district that spends 4,000 per pupil but does a lousy job, you might solve that by moving into a district that spends 18,000 per pupil that, with those kinds of resources, does a bang up job.  Of course, you would have to be able to afford to live in that district which takes money.  Within reason, money matters.

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Actually, when you are talking about the government, you do NOT get what you pay for. Quantity <> quality.

 

When things do not work, just add more government spending.

[UConn James]

Actually, when you are talking about the government, you do NOT get what you pay for. Quantity <> quality.

 

When things do not work, just add more government spending.

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It's amazing how people think that every govt program is a waste of money while industry runs such a tight ship.

 

It's funny when you're looking for help in the store or going to fill an order how the person behind the desk looks to be busy. Then s/he stands up, and the mirror behind them reveals that they play solitare very stupidly too.

 

Gov't, military, industry, consumer spending, whatever. When human beings are involved, there will be a roughly equal level of (in)efficiency. Govt is a convenient whipping boy tho.

[blzrul]

Oh don't be touchy, "fat, dumb and happy" is an expression. I merely meant that if a defense company needs more money to build some lovely lethal technology, the government will find a way to get it. Too bad schooling is not such a priority.

 

And there's nothing wrong with raising the bar on education, but one has to provide the support needed. Cutting the funding on schools that can't comply punishes no-one but the children.

 

If someone told one of us we had to, for example, double our output for no additional salary or other support and that if we failed to do so we'd lose our computer or get our pay cut .... we'd think that unfair too. We'd probably be fine with doubling our output if we got a faster computer or an assistant or something like that...

 

I guess if we have enough bombs and stuff to scare off "evildoers" it doesn't matter if our kids can't compete in the world arena, until those other smarter and better-educated kids build some technology that kicks our ass.

[KRC]

It's amazing how people think that every govt program is a waste of money while industry runs such a tight ship.

 

It's funny when you're looking for help in the store or going to fill an order how the person behind the desk looks to be busy. Then s/he stands up, and the mirror behind them reveals that they play solitare very stupidly too.

 

Gov't, military, industry, consumer spending, whatever. When human beings are involved, there will be a roughly equal level of (in)efficiency. Govt is a convenient whipping boy tho.

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Nice try at putting words in my mouth. Too bad they are not true.

 

How much money is spent on bureaucracy before it even reaches the kids? Wouldn't that money be better spent on our children, instead of being thrown down a black hole?

[UConn James]

Nice try at putting words in my mouth. Too bad they are not true.

 

How much money is spent on bureaucracy before it even reaches the kids? Wouldn't that money be better spent on our children, instead of being thrown down a black hole?

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Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. That was a general comment. Then again, what's the alternative to public education? Private education, where the results will be the same. But it'll be private industry, so that'll make it great. The point is not about "throwing money at" a problem. That's not the solution. The point being made was that the system in place takes money away b/c of a situation that is out of the control of teachers. In the face of that, the incentive is high to cheat and tweak numbers.

 

Do you actually know what the "bureaucracy" does? Or are you just railing b/c they earn a salary for doing the foundation work that no one sees? It's like people who complain about CEOs and VPs. Only you don't usually go into education to get rich....

 

Maybe we should just give the $4K each directly to the students so they can conduct their own education. No administrative waste then. I'm sure it won't be spent on video games and Bugles.

[KRC]

Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. That was a general comment. Then again, what's the alternative to public education? Private education, where the results will be the same. But it'll be private industry, so that'll make it great. The point is not about "throwing money at" a problem. That's not the solution. The point being made was that the system in place takes money away b/c of a situation that is out of the control of teachers.

 

Do you actually know what the "bureaucracy" does? Or are you just railing b/c they earn a salary for doing the foundation work that no one sees?

 

Maybe we should just give the $4K directly to the students so they can conduct their own education. No administrative waste then. I'm sure it won't be spent on video games and Bugles.

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Yes, I know what the bureaucracy does, which is why I am against having countless, unnecessary layers of it preventing our tax dollars from reaching the people who need it the most: our kids.

 

People keep complaining that there is not enough money to get updated books for our kids, but do not seem to have a problem with the fact that the money that could be used for those books is instead used by pencil-pushers who have no effect on the quality of education.

 

We could spend the same amount of money on education that we do now. Eliminate the multiple layers of bureaucracy and you would be suprised at how much is left over for the tools necessary to educate our children.

[Mickey]

Actually, when you are talking about the government, you do NOT get what you pay for. Quantity <> quality.

 

When things do not work, just add more government spending.

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Yes, I know, absolutely everything the government has done throughout history is a complete and abject failure. The CDC, NASA, the military, NIH, FDA, all of it, a complete disaster.

[UConn James]

Yes, I know what the bureaucracy does, which is why I am against having countless, unnecessary layers of it preventing our tax dollars from reaching the people who need it the most: our kids.

 

People keep complaining that there is not enough money to get updated books for our kids, but do not seem to have a problem with the fact that the money that could be used for those books is instead used by pencil-pushers who have no effect on the quality of education.

 

We could spend the same amount of money on education that we do now. Eliminate the multiple layers of bureaucracy and you would be suprised at how much is left over for the tools necessary to educate our children.

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This is an honest question, where are the unnecessary layers? What are the job titles that get eliminated? And how do you fill the holes they leave?

 

I'm sure there are in the higher reaches of state govts of boards, etc. But this doesn't break the bank or provide much relief in a budget. Who takes the place of whatever work they do? It's kind of hard to get qualified people to just volunteer for a full-time job.

 

On the town/city level, most boards of ed are comprised of volunteers or they get a nominal sum, to give a broad direction and oversight of expenses.

 

Are there too many principals? Secretaries? Nurses? PhysEd teachers....?

[KRC]

Yes, I know, absolutely everything the government has done throughout history is a complete and abject failure.  The CDC, NASA, the military, NIH, FDA, all of it, a complete disaster.

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You know that I did not say that, but hey, if it helps you sleep at night. Surpisingly, you left a Rush/Coulter/Hannity bash out of this post. You are slipping, my blindly partisan friend.

[blzrul]

This is an honest question, where are the unnecessary layers? What are the job titles that get eliminated? And how do you fill the holes they leave?

 

I'm sure there are in the higher reaches of state govts of boards, etc. But this doesn't break the bank or provide much relief in a budget. Who takes the place of whatever work they do? It's kind of hard to get qualified people to just volunteer for a full-time job.

 

On the town/city level, most boards of ed are comprised of volunteers or they get a nominal sum, to give a broad direction and oversight of expenses.

 

Are there too many principals? Secretaries? Nurses? PhysEd teachers....?

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Well getting back to the subject of TX schools - my daughter's school campus would have been the envy of a community college and whereas teachers did double-duty in many areas and relied on external fundraising and classroom volunteers the football and baseball teams lacked for nothing.

 

It's those old priorities again.

 

And speaking of values, this just in from another purported bastion of moral Christian values: Stealing School People

[Jon in Pasadena]

And speaking of values, this just in from another purported bastion of moral Christian values:  Stealing School People

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Corruption in the Big Easy? Say it ain't so...

[jimshiz]

The idealogical appetite of another large portion of the electorate for more social spending, always more, more, more, is insatiable. Logically, that has to eventually lead to ruin.

[Daryl Manonica]

Tsk tsk.  Well, those of you who like to search back on my posts will find at least one, and probably more, that discuss how the schools in TX look "good" because the bar is lowered and that students who go to those schools are invariably behind when they get out of TX.

 

So I guess you also disagree with lowering the bar for blacks to get admitted into schools they don't qualify for or get hired for jobs when others are more qualified, right?

[blzrul]

The idealogical appetite of another large portion of the electorate for more social spending, always more, more, more, is insatiable. Logically, that has to eventually lead to ruin.

169483[/snapback]

So what should we invest in if not our human resource? Bombs? Roads? Other utilitarian "things" that are really just tools for the people? Uncontrolled spending on ANYTHING will lead to ruin. The question is why do people always get the short end of the stick? The job of the government is to protect the people and to provide for the common good.

 

It's a pretty standard practice in the corporate world to recognize, nurture and grow the skills and knowledge of its workers, and to the extent possible invest in their well-being, because that makes for a better worker and a more competitive company. Balancing the needs of the workers against the IT guy's desire for the latest whizbang technology is commonplace and usually a balance is struck, often with the human need winning out because the human capacity for creativeness and survival beats out an inanimate object any day.

 

The same philosphy applies elsewhere. And of course this Administration has bragged that it's run like a business, but if that's the case it's more of the Gordon Gecko business philosophy than most I've seen, studied or worked under.

[jimshiz]

And of course this Administration has bragged that it's run like a business, but if that's the case it's more of the Gordon Gecko business philosophy than most I've seen, studied or worked under.

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I hope you realize that I was simply using the exact same phrase somebody else used for military spending vs. social spending.

 

And NO government should ever be run like a business because business is in it for the money, to make a profit, and nothing else. Government should not be trying to make a "profit".