US kids getting hammered on Math and Science

[Mickey]

The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries. US kids lagging behind Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science".

 

Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting. After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova. Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha).

 

Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning? I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word. I know, it's a radical stance but there it is.

[OGTEleven]

The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries.  US kids lagging behind  Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science".

 

Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting.  After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova.  Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha). 

 

Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning?  I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word.  I know, it's a radical stance but there it is.

161021[/snapback]

 

Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math.

[chicot]

Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math.

161033[/snapback]

 

Cucumbers? That's no good. No wonder they're still getting pregnant. Someone needs to explain to them that they need to put them on something other than a cucumber for them to be effective

[IUBillsFan]

The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries.  US kids lagging behind  Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science".

 

Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting.  After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova.  Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha). 

 

Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning?  I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word.  I know, it's a radical stance but there it is.

161021[/snapback]

 

 

The teachers can't teach math and science because the dumb kids may get their feelings hurt if some kids know things they don't...

[PastaJoe]

Cucumbers? That's no good. No wonder they're still getting pregnant. Someone needs to explain to them that they need to put them on something other than a cucumber for them to be effective

 

Shhh! They're not supposed to know that. Knowledge is evil. Look at the damage that Charles Darwin has already done.

[Terry Tate]

There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject.

 

I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives.

 

This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals.

[IUBillsFan]

There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject.

 

I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives.

 

This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals.

161130[/snapback]

 

You are obviously a religious fanatic…I bet you hate gays too don’t you?

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

I have the complete answer to our problem:

 

My theory is that since our independence, the overall ability of our citizens in subjects increased. As books became more available, and more students had access to classrooms instead of back-breaking jobs to support their family, we became a more intelligent, innovative society with respect to education. This peak was reached with the 1960's.

 

After the 1960's, the evolution of television created more and more kids who didn't need books or learning activities or adventures to spend their free time with. They had the OL TV. This only grew worse over time, with kids who grew up this way having kids who became WORSE than their parents, now armed with video games, and so on. It is a cycle that has only been SOMEWHAT broken by the advent of the internet.

 

In other words, kids who grew up watching a lot of television were kept away from other things, and their kids got worse. Now look at us.

 

I'm not Amish on the subject of TV or anything, but bad parenting is rampant.

[RkFast]

Wait a second...........

 

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisla...ories-headlines

 

Eighth-graders score gains on international tests

 

BY JOHN HILDEBRAND

STAFF WRITER

 

December 15, 2004

 

U.S. eighth-graders showed significant gains on international tests in science and math, according to results released yesterday, with sharpest improvements registered among Hispanic and black students.

[PastaJoe]

I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives.

 

This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals.

 

I went to Catholic grammer, high school, and college. When it came to science, I learned about science, including evolution, and wasn't subjected to being told that creationism was just as valid. In fact in college my required religious classes explained how the Bible was a narrative developed over the centuries, not a literal historical document.

 

The problem recently is that there's an increased push to have religious beliefs cross over as valid scientific alternatives to proven facts, and narratives as historical facts.

[Mickey]

Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math.

161033[/snapback]

Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved. I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only. Makes sense.

[Mickey]

There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject.

 

I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives.

 

This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals.

161130[/snapback]

The catholic church has no objections to evolution nor does it require teaching half baked bunkum in science class. It subscribes to a theistic from of evolution which creationists most assuredly do not. It is not an either/or situation at all. It is the creationists that would have it so. Learn religion in religious studies classes, theology in theology class and science in science class. Easy.

[Arondale]

Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved.  I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only.  Makes sense.

161289[/snapback]

 

Yes, and the Dover school district in York, PA, which you refer to in your other thread and are obviously referring to in this thread, is the only school district in the entire country to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design.

 

Yet somehow your conclusions make sense, Mickey?

[OGTEleven]

Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved.  I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only.  Makes sense.

161289[/snapback]

Well, in your original post of this thread, you implied it was (at least partially) because "creation science" was nudging something aside. My guess is that 4th graders are taught neither evolution nor creation science. Even if they were only taught evolution, as you'd advocate, this would likely not help their math scores.

 

Further, in an old thread, I suggested that maybe more time be spent on the three r's instead of condoms and I got the sense you did not agree.

 

Based on this, I figured I throw in a wise @$$ comment.

[Mickey]

Yes, and the Dover school district in York, PA, which you refer to in your other thread and are obviously referring to in this thread, is the only school district in the entire country to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design. 

 

Yet somehow your conclusions make sense, Mickey?

161307[/snapback]

Actually I am referring to all school districts where prayer in school, among other similar issues, is being fought over. Did you not see the "lamenting that God is kept out of schools" part of my original post? Read the post again and maybe you can find something else to hit me with. I can only speculate on what schools have spent on attorneys trying to get a prayer service at graduation ceremonies to pass constitutional muster or similar endeavors.

 

As for evolution/creationist clashes, see this site for links to states where this has been an issue including Alabama, Kansas and Georgia to name a few. Talk.design In addition to Dover, Pa., this has been a problem recently in Cobb county Ga. and in Grantsburg Wisconsin. It was a state wide fight in Kansas that lasted 2 years, from 1999-2001. There is legislation pending in Michigan mandating intelligent design.

 

I would think that education budgets would be thin enough without inviting litigation by insisting on forced prayers, nativity scenes and rewriting science textbooks.

[Mickey]

Well, in your original post of this thread, you implied it was (at least partially) because "creation science" was nudging something aside.  My guess is that 4th graders are taught neither evolution nor creation science.  Even if they were only taught evolution, as you'd advocate, this would likely not help their math scores. 

 

Further, in an old thread, I suggested that maybe more time be spent on the three r's instead of condoms and I got the sense you did not agree.

 

Based on this, I figured I throw in a wise @$$ comment.

161350[/snapback]

So now you need a reason to be a wise @$$? Talk about a lousy theory.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too.

 

The multiculturalists, by stark contrast, do not see the United States at all as a good country with common values worth transmitting. They grossly divide Americans into "oppressors" (all whites of European descent) and the "oppressed" (all persons of color from minority cultures).

    Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States," a 750-page screed that depicts America as a continuing centuries-old conspiracy of rich white men to exploit minorities, is their hornbook. Many use it in their classrooms to demean America's Founders.

    They want to mold future teachers into agents of social transformation who will reject the continuing Anglo/Western influences on the core curriculum and denounce what they contend is a legacy of unrelenting oppression that should cause all white Americans to carry a heavy burden of guilt.

    That much becomes clear when the National Association for Multicultural Education (NAME) convenes annually (as it did recently in Kansas City), and professors and teachers from all 50 states gather in more than 200 workshops to lay bare their agendas.

    Veteran teacher-trainer G. Pritchy Smith of the University of North Florida, who co-conducted a day-long NAME institute on how schools of education should meet diversity standards for accreditation, argues for a "culturally responsible" pedagogy for teacher education that will enable teachers to carry a "social reconstructionist perspective" into the classroom.

    His goal: "People who live multicultural lifestyles, live multicultural ways. We need a deep-rooted transformation of values and dispositions — the multicultural teacher."

    This is how the National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education (NCATE), a NAME partner, defines diversity: "Differences among groups of people and individuals based on ethnicity, race, socioeconomic status, gender, exceptionalities, language, religion, sexual orientation, and geographical area."

    At a small-group workshop this year, presenters from Central Missouri State University argued that teachers should be trained to rewrite a curriculum they view as oppressively Eurocentric.

 

Multicultural Crap in the Schools

[Mickey]

Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too.

Multicultural Crap in the Schools

161640[/snapback]

Sure, the best way to learn is to get rid of schools. Maybe the best way to get rid of death is to get rid of hospitals? Really, people are dying all the time so clearly the hospitals are an abject failure, close them down I say.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Sure, the best way to learn is to get rid of schools.  Maybe the best way to get rid of death is to get rid of hospitals?  Really, people are dying all the time so clearly the hospitals are an abject failure, close them down I say.

161671[/snapback]

 

Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post.

 

Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around.

 

And of course, lest we forget-

 

On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite.

 

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

 

Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel.

[sweet baboo]

the United States will NEVER be able to compete with students from Asia...how do I know? I went to high school there (Taipei American School) and I saw first hand what kids in the regular Taiwanese schools do after school...after being hammered non stop in school with ridiculously hard math problems (my math teachers would take one of their problem set books and make us try to do them...and we couldn't do them (every year, we tried their problems...geometry, algebra, calculus...who would've thought geometry could be so difficult?...btw, i was an AP scholar coming out of high school...we were also supposed to be the best of the best (my classes average SAT score out of 209 kids was 1245 (out of 1600)...the classes before and after my class average about the same)...we came in first or second annually in some national math competition...we'd always lose every year to one school in alabama whose students were all children of the scientists from the NASA facility there), they go straight from school into an after school class called bu-shi ban (which means roughly, bolstering class) to get hammered on some more...i'm not sure how it got to be this way, but everyone MUST do it or else getting into the college of your choice will be very difficult since everyone else is doing all the extra work...

meanwhile, in my highschool, it was the regular american life (sort of, except it was probably more cutthroat than your average american high school as everyone was trying to get into harvard, yale, princeton...etc)...after school, we went out for sports, clubs...etc...if american kids think high school is rough with SATs and stuff, they'd all drop dead in a regular asian school...i know i would...you'd basically have no life...my two cousins are like zombies or freaks of science...in that society, education is valued above all...everything else falls below...

in the united states, we worship musicians/sports/movie stars and strive to be them (see american idol)...over there, despite not making that much money, those involved in academics (i.e. university professors/scientists/medical doctors) receive the most respect...

we simply do not value education enough here

ever been to a scientific conference in the US? the makeup of the conferences are about 66% foreigners and 33% domestic scientists

[Johnny Coli]

Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post.

 

Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around.

 

And of course, lest we forget-

 

On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite.

 

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

 

Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel.

161699[/snapback]

 

 

Uh oh. He's on to us. As a member of the liberal elite, I congratulate you on uncovering our sinister plan to make your children pro-union pro-choice gay-loving commies by ramming hypothesis-based science down their impressionable throats.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Uh oh.  He's on to us.  As a member of the liberal elite, I congratulate you on uncovering our sinister plan to make your children pro-union pro-choice gay-loving commies by ramming hypothesis-based science down their impressionable throats.

161757[/snapback]

 

Hey, at least you're honest about it...

[_BiB_]

Has anyone considered that a lot of kids don't like math and science, let alone school period, and people don't push them like they used to?

[sweet baboo]

Has anyone considered that a lot of kids don't like math and science, let alone school period, and people don't push them like they used to?

161783[/snapback]

 

i believe that was the point of my post...arguing politics is a waste of time as it doesn't even begin to touch on the real problem: we've got our values in the wrong place

 

then again, who's to say that what the other countries are doing is right eh? eh?

[_BiB_]

i believe that was the point of my post...arguing politics is a waste of time as it doesn't even begin to touch on the real problem: we've got our values in the wrong place

 

then again, who's to say that what the other countries are doing is right eh? eh? 

161802[/snapback]

 

Sorry, I cheated and didn't read the whole thread.

[sweet baboo]

that's ok...i forgive you since i might want to work with you in the future

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too.

Multicultural Crap in the Schools

161640[/snapback]

 

No, I don't think so.

 

If you pick up a history book that was written 100 years ago, you would see, as I and MANY other history students have, that it IS oppressively Eurocentric AND does not focus on the broad range of topics required for a TRUE study of our history. I cannot speak for the other disciplines, but in the study of history, we CANNOT afford to be very narrow in our interpretation and presentation of it. Glossing over important figures and events because of the race/gender involved is a precedent that I am glad to see is going away. The age of 'savages' and the narrow focus on the few (England, France, Dutch and Spain) will now include even MORE (Scandanavia, Russia, China/Japan, Africa, wide range of tribes and their conflicts), as it SHOULD BE. Nothing is ever simple in history, and we owe future generations to reveal to them how truly deep and involved our American history is.

 

You may call my view revisionist, but I call it expanding the mind, and becoming more wise and intelligent in the process.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post.

 

Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around.

 

The market will fill the void? You make education seem to be such a definitie quantity that can be put on a supply and demand curve. Education isn't a commodity. Countries all over the world who have successful schools do so because their governments have established fair guidelines, and the schools are properly maintained. There is no glaring disparity between rich school districts and poor school disricts. Our schools have neither of their qualities. Whose fault is that? We share the blame equally as taxpayers with the government because we ALLOW it to happen with our attitudes. FACE IT; we don't value education nearly as high as more successful nations do, and we suffer. Privatizing them won't solve the inherent disrespect education recieves in our society.

[Mickey]

Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post.

 

Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around.

 

And of course, lest we forget-

 

On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite.

 

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

 

Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel.

161699[/snapback]

 

Gee, I don't know, maybe it was that line about how we should "disband public education". Seems to me that would entail closing thousands and thousands of schools. I only wish every Republican politician would run on a platform of disbanding public schools.

 

"the market will fill the void"???? Yeah, the way it did before we had public education in the United States. How exactly would the children of the poor and struggling middle class pay for a private school offered up by the magical, all powerful "market"? Lots of people, many of them working people who play by the rules and do the best they can do not own property and thus do not pay school taxes as it is. Simply dropping public education and returning the taxes to those who pay them would not provide the resources such people would need to pay for a private education. If you want to see what type of educational opportunities the market offers children of those who have enough trouble keeping food on the table and the rent paid, read some history or maybe Dickens. That is the precise "system" that was such a complete and utter failure as well as a virtual apostasy for a supposedly democratic society that led to the establishment of public education as a right to begin with.

 

Here is a short passage on pre-public education in America and the establishment of public schools:

 

"Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead." See, History of Public Education in the United States

 

As for commies, I agree, they are bad. So what? Are you trying to say that the NEA is part of a commie plot based on some garbage from 1963? I thought the cold war was over.

[Fan in San Diego]

the United States will NEVER be able to compete with students from Asia...how do I know? I went to high school there (Taipei American School) and I saw first hand what kids in the regular Taiwanese schools do after school...after being hammered non stop in school with ridiculously hard math problems (my math teachers would take one of their problem set books and make us try to do them...and we couldn't do them (every year, we tried their problems...geometry, algebra, calculus...who would've thought geometry could be so difficult?...btw, i was an AP scholar coming out of high school...we were also supposed to be the best of the best (my classes average SAT score out of 209 kids was 1245 (out of 1600)...the classes before and after my class average about the same)...we came in first or second annually in some national math competition...we'd always lose every year to one school in alabama whose students were all children of the scientists from the NASA facility there), they go straight from school into an after school class called bu-shi ban (which means roughly, bolstering class) to get hammered on some more...i'm not sure how it got to be this way, but everyone MUST do it or else getting into the college of your choice will be very difficult since everyone else is doing all the extra work...

meanwhile, in my highschool, it was the regular american life (sort of, except it was probably more cutthroat than your average american high school as everyone was trying to get into harvard, yale, princeton...etc)...after school, we went out for sports, clubs...etc...if american kids think high school is rough with SATs and stuff, they'd all drop dead in a regular asian school...i know i would...you'd basically have no life...my two cousins are like zombies or freaks of science...in that society, education is valued above all...everything else falls below...

in the united states, we worship musicians/sports/movie stars and strive to be them (see american idol)...over there, despite not making that much money, those involved in academics (i.e. university professors/scientists/medical doctors) receive the most respect...

we simply do not value education enough here

ever been to a scientific conference in the US? the makeup of the conferences are about 66% foreigners and 33% domestic scientists

161736[/snapback]

 

Thank you for the insight. I was going to add this train of thought to the thread. I would add that the suicide rate for teens is much higher in Asian countries because some teens become despondant over the rigors of the academia and if they are percieved at failing to make the grade.

 

No thanks, I dont want that intensity or pressure on my kids. There is more to life than being able to to prove the 4th dimension of time and space mathematically. Life holds so much more than your ability to perform algebra.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Thank you for the insight. I was going to add this train of thought to the thread. I would add that the suicide rate for teens is much higher in Asian countries because some teens become despondant over the rigors of the academia and if they are percieved at failing to make the grade.

 

No thanks, I dont want that intensity or pressure on my kids. There is more to life than being able to to prove the 4th dimension of time and space mathematically. Life holds so much more than your ability to perform algebra.

172926[/snapback]

 

Not all people were EVER born to be good in math or science, but the disrespect education recieves in this country makes us more and more ignorant and irrelevant in the world. That DOES affect life beyond algebra.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post.

 

Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around.

161699[/snapback]

Yeah, because "the market" has the best interests of children, and not profit, in mind. I'm sorry, our kids are already educated enough by Coca-Cola and General Motors. I'd like to move as far away from that as possible. Parents have control when the TAKE control, not because some magical corporation is going to help them do it. At least with the public system there is some semblance of accountability in electing school boards and higher-ups. When it becomes about placating shareholders, who's to say it's going to be any different than it is at your job, when they hand you a pink slip because it's the best thing for the bottom line?

 

Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses.

[GG]

At least with the public system there is some semblance of accountability in electing school boards and higher-ups.  When it becomes about placating shareholders, who's to say it's going to be any different than it is at your job, when they hand you a pink slip because it's the best thing for the bottom line?

 

Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses.

173320[/snapback]

 

I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is.

 

The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school. But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed.

[Mickey]

I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is.

 

The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school.  But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed.

173350[/snapback]

That is not true. Voucher programs do not provide just choice between public schools but between private and public schools. See School Choice

 

Cleveland, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Vermont and DC all have voucher programs.

 

The Cleveland program does allow switching to another public school outside the district but no such schools are willing to participate in the program so the choice is effectively limited to just private schools. The Colorado program was ruled unconstitutional under that state's constitution. The program would have taken funds raised locally and provided them to private schools with no control over them by the school board. The Colorado Constitution requires that funds raised locally for education be locally controlled. Had the program been enacted, it appears that it would have been a choice between public or private, not a choice between public schools. The Florida program is actually pretty good and does include public schools however students are only able to get a voucher if their school is failing certain tests two years in a row. That really has hardly ever happened. It is more of a theoretical program than a reality.

 

Maine just has it for people who live in areas without public schools. Rather than build new schools, Maine long ago just gave people the money to go to a private school. The private school doesn't include religious schools. It also doesn't include other public schools. The Milwaukee program also is a program between public and private, not one between public schools.

 

The public by and large really has no trouble with plans that allow a choice among the public schools in their district. That way, the public money doesn't get funneled to private schools. The real argument here is over public money going to private schools. Even with tuition assistance and vouchers, public schools will remain the only choice for many people. Reducing the funding of those schools and channeling it to private schools will certainly be of benefit to some but lets not pretend that doesn't leave the poor behind. It does.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses.

173320[/snapback]

 

I just love the voucher plan... take money away from public schools that are already underfunded, and using this basic math:

 

One year of private school: $8,000.00

Voucher for private school: $4,000.00

Balance owed: $4,000.00

 

THIS is the plan to make education MORE AVAILABLE and BETTER?!

 

Undoubtedly people think that normal families can cough up so much extra money a year. The numbers may not be totally reflective in some areas of the country, but the basic idea is that parents who get vouchers have to find a lot of money on top of their college funds for this 'gift'.

 

THESE are the kinds of bonehead plans we are given instead of fixing the problems.

[Alaska Darin]

I just love the voucher plan... take money away from public schools that are already underfunded, and using this basic math:

 

One year of private school: $8,000.00

Voucher for private school: $4,000.00

Balance owed:                  $4,000.00

 

THIS is the plan to make education MORE AVAILABLE and BETTER?!

 

Undoubtedly people think that normal families can cough up so much extra money a year. The numbers may not be totally reflective in some areas of the country, but the basic idea is that parents who get vouchers have to find a lot of money on top of their college funds for this 'gift'.

 

THESE are the kinds of bonehead plans we are given instead of fixing the problems.

173618[/snapback]

Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true. Underfunded? Bull.

 

But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it. It's always worked in the past.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is.

 

The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school.  But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed.

173350[/snapback]

I won't. But I do think that school boards are much more accountable than public officials. They bring out votes that are a lot more complex, you must agree. And generally people are much more passionate about it than the government because it directly affects their families/lives.

 

I usually think your posts are on, GG, but I can't quite get what you are saying here. Mick has already pointed out that the motive here is to get kids into private schools, for one. But "this is not about private schools, but what's wrong with corporations running them anyway?" seems to be the gist of your argument. I don't get it.

 

I do think corporations shouldn't be running schools. Period. They're fine for making the products we need/want/think we need most of the time, but when it comes to something as essential as the education of our children, I can't surrender that to people who are more concerned with profit than education -- we have already done this too much.

 

As far as parents having choice of public schools, that's fine, but I can't help the feeling that we're just sweeping problematic schools under the rug and leaving the kids there behind. We should be doing our best to make all schools better for all kids, and it should be a selfless, whatever-it-takes kind of mission.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true.  Underfunded?  Bull.

 

But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it.  It's always worked in the past.  

173651[/snapback]

Darin, when kids in your town are having gym class in the school lobby because they can't afford a phys. ed. program and facility, it might make sense to you. But then again, we have plenty of money to toss the Jets' way.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true.  Underfunded?  Bull.

 

But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it.  It's always worked in the past. 

173651[/snapback]

 

EXAMPLES:

 

There are high schools that have no air conditioners, their security upgrades cannot be met due to a lack of funds, art and music programs are cancelled, facilities are in disrepair... need I go on?

 

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

OK, here is PRINT, PROOF..... People like you are a part of the problem,... you think there IS no problem!

 

NEW YORK

 

SOUTH CAROLINA

 

WASHINGTON STATE

 

PBS ARTICLE ON UNDERFUNDING

 

HEARTLAND INSTITUTE