Bills Inner Circle

[PromoTheRobot]

then please, tell me if you recall Mr. Wilson ever saying something like this in the past: "We've got to revamp and take a look at the whole operation, and that's what we're going to do." and then say he is in a position to spend money on solving the problem. in all my encounters with Mr. Wilson, he's never gone that far.

 

jw

Never argue with tolls. They like it.

 

PTR

[spartacus]

then please, tell me if you recall Mr. Wilson ever saying something like this in the past: "We've got to revamp and take a look at the whole operation, and that's what we're going to do." and then say he is in a position to spend money on solving the problem. in all my encounters with Mr. Wilson, he's never gone that far.

 

jw

 

you're the one with the direct connect to Ralph-

 

why not ask a few follow up questions that get beyond the well playing sound bites?

 

In 50 years of ownership, he has not hired someone for the GM job from outside the organization that has worked out. How is he now going to find a qualified GM when his Inner Circle is the source of most of the problems in the organization? Sounds like that same Inner Circle is doing the looking

 

Inquiring minds want to know

[BillsfaninFl]

then please, tell me if you recall Mr. Wilson ever saying something like this in the past: "We've got to revamp and take a look at the whole operation, and that's what we're going to do." and then say he is in a position to spend money on solving the problem. in all my encounters with Mr. Wilson, he's never gone that far.

 

jw

 

Ah, there's the rub. It boils down to whether you believe Wilson or not. Our common ground is that we all want to believe him. Where we diverge is from our experiences, observations and interpretations. I believed him for the better part of 50 years. It is only during the past few when I have finally looked back and counted the times he said we are going north, then turned south.

 

I don't agree that Ralph has gone farther than ever before. So far, he only fired a coach that everyone knew was dead meat last season. When he actually does something different than his track record, I'll be among the first to admit I was wrong (and celebrate about it).

 

I hope I'm wrong... I hope I'm wrong... I hope I'm wrong.

[Nevergiveup]

you're the one with the direct connect to Ralph-

 

why not ask a few follow up questions that get beyond the well playing sound bites?

 

In 50 years of ownership, he has not hired someone for the GM job from outside the organization that has worked out. How is he now going to find a qualified GM when his Inner Circle is the source of most of the problems in the organization? Sounds like that same Inner Circle is doing the looking

 

Inquiring minds want to know

 

 

At least we now agree that Ralph said it. I don't know that anyone should believe him or think he can get it down at this point. Spartacus should be skeptical. I just hope he is wrong.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

You must be kidding or clueless. Do you remember Ralph saying, "I don't even know the man," when asked about the Bills pursuit of Mike Shanahan? Mr. Wilson is 91 years old. He's not out there pursuing the best young football minds by attending clinics and conventions, etc. That's why he pays Mr. Smithers. He doesn't have many connections to the best minds in football. Quite the opposite in fact. He's been involved with creating situations and firing the best minds in football; that's not a connection, that's poisoning the well. He hired Marv Levy because, as he said, that he didn't know who to hire or even where to start, so he called Marv to see if he had any advice on how to fix the franchise and as they talked it occurred to him that Marv might be the positive influence that he wanted for the job. When you look at the 50 years of Bills football, there is overwhelming evidence that Ralph has few connections and rarely, and only when forced, goes outside his own organization for help. Since the Bills have historically had 1 winning season out of 3, this directly contradicts that Ralph knows, appreciates, and can hire many of the elite minds in the sport. He's not chummy with much of the new NFL ownership: he, Mike Brown, and Al Davis are widely regarded as out of touch ownership that are living in the past and who have turned down opportunities to remain competitive as the NFL has evolved.

 

Edit: That doesn't mean that he won't get it right this time. I do believe that he sincerely wants to bring a winner to Buffalo. But, I have to discount any blind homeristic balderdash that Mr. Wilson is well-connected and his unflappable decision-making consistently targets putting the best football team on the field.

 

Totally agree. The Marv Levy hire (81 years old at the time) proved that RW didn't have any connections to rely upon to hire a GM of sorts, whatever Marv's official role was. Of course when RW said he didn't know Shanahan he meant that he didn't know him personally. He does know that he coached the Broncos until recently.

 

I hope Brandon has more influence than RW on the hiring of a GM or coach at this point in time.

[Red]

I know we joke about it, but how can we possibly get this straightened out. Ralph huddles in Detroit with who? What can Jeff Littman bring to any discussion related to football? I guess we already know that answer. Who else is there when Ralph heads to the office? Mary Owen is the niece of his 3rd wife and seems to have a new title every other year. We can only hope she does not have any input. What a joke that would be. I can't locate anyone else. Back in Buffalo it's Brandon, Overdorf, John Guy (donahoe hire) and Modrak (might not even count since he lives in Florida)

 

This is a complete disaster. I think Ralph will hire a football exec and a coach with a decent name, but it will be blind luck if they end up being the right ones. I guess that is what we are left with. If I have no other choice, I would probably rather have Brandon make the call. At least he is a competent business executive. As long as he steps aside on the football side once the process is complete.

 

So much for living up to my screen name. Thanks for lettng me vent and post. If anyone can make me feel better, please do.

 

Merry X-mas.

 

Overdorf holds the purse strings, no?

 

And isn't Overdorf the one who has the say on letting free agents go? Isn't he the one who was put in charge of the financial and business side of the Bills, to mirror the role Brandon currently has on the football side? Wasn't it Overdorf who always fought with Polian when he was here?

 

I don't see how Overdorf could have influenced the drafts for the past decade- which still tells me that good 'ol Tommy Mo down in FL can stay down there permanently. He has had 9 drafts and has sucked at every one of them.

 

Guy has also brought in nothing but losers in free agency. He should be thrown out the door as well.

 

But I wonder, after Donahoe left, how much power exactly does the man responsible for the Bills salary structure (Overdorf) have, exactly?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Overdorf holds the purse strings, no?

 

And isn't Overdorf the one who has the say on letting free agents go? Isn't he the one who was put in charge of the financial and business side of the Bills, to mirror the role Brandon currently has on the football side? Wasn't it Overdorf who always fought with Polian when he was here?

 

I don't see how Overdorf could have influenced the drafts for the past decade- which still tells me that good 'ol Tommy Mo down in FL can stay down there permanently. He has had 9 drafts and has sucked at every one of them.

 

Guy has also brought in nothing but losers in free agency. He should be thrown out the door as well.

 

But I wonder, after Donahoe left, how much power exactly does the man responsible for the Bills salary structure (Overdorf) have, exactly?

One story was that Overdorf unilaterally decided Lawyer Milloy was not worth his contract, released him, and told the coaches later.

[PromoTheRobot]

I guess it comes down to whether you think Ralph Wilson is a liar. I know that is harsh but that is what some of you are suggesting. Here's a question: has Ralph ever lied to the fans before? If he hasn't then why start now? There is a difference between being a liar and being incompetent.

 

PTR

[Sisyphean Bills]

Totally agree. The Marv Levy hire (81 years old at the time) proved that RW didn't have any connections to rely upon to hire a GM of sorts, whatever Marv's official role was. Of course when RW said he didn't know Shanahan he meant that he didn't know him personally. He does know that he coached the Broncos until recently.

 

I hope Brandon has more influence than RW on the hiring of a GM or coach at this point in time.

True that (and I understood what he meant). Still, that doesn't change my original point though. Ralph had never met the guy that was head coach and acting head of the football operations in Denver for 14 years and widely considered one of the top minds in the game. Ralph baldly admitted he had zero connection with the guy.

[Delete This Account]

True that (and I understood what he meant). Still, that doesn't change my original point though. Ralph had never met the guy that was head coach and acting head of the football operations in Denver for 14 years and widely considered one of the top minds in the game. Ralph baldly admitted he had zero connection with the guy.

personally, i think what Mr. Wilson was trying to do, is not lie, by revealing the Bills were interested in Shanahan. it's why the team, afterward, sent out a press release noting it wasn't going to discuss its coaching search, which in an awkward -- yet truthful way -- is what i think Mr. Wilson meant to say when he told me he knew nothing about the guy.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

you're the one with the direct connect to Ralph-

 

why not ask a few follow up questions that get beyond the well playing sound bites?

 

In 50 years of ownership, he has not hired someone for the GM job from outside the organization that has worked out. How is he now going to find a qualified GM when his Inner Circle is the source of most of the problems in the organization? Sounds like that same Inner Circle is doing the looking

 

Inquiring minds want to know

first, i don't answer to you.

 

second, i question your second statement. you say that Mr. Wilson has not hired someone from outside the organization that worked out.

so,

-- are you suggesting he promote from within?

-- or are you suggesting that his decision to spend big money on Tom Donahoe was wrong?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have spent big money on Tom Donahoe? or are you suggesting that Mr. Wilson was snakebit for hiring Tom Donahoe, which is why he hasn't gone outside the organization to hire another GM since 2005, which actually proves that you agree with Mr. Wilson?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have promoted Bill Polian to the GM job?

 

exactly, what is it that you're suggesting?

 

and i'm pleased your making reference to the "Inner Circle," because that's what the AP got out of Mr. Wilson a year ago. but you seem to be the one who doesn't think the media in town is worth a grain of salt, and yet you seem to be good at quoting us.

 

my my, what a conundrum.

 

jw

[Nevergiveup]

Overdorf holds the purse strings, no?

 

And isn't Overdorf the one who has the say on letting free agents go? Isn't he the one who was put in charge of the financial and business side of the Bills, to mirror the role Brandon currently has on the football side? Wasn't it Overdorf who always fought with Polian when he was here?

 

I don't see how Overdorf could have influenced the drafts for the past decade- which still tells me that good 'ol Tommy Mo down in FL can stay down there permanently. He has had 9 drafts and has sucked at every one of them.

 

Guy has also brought in nothing but losers in free agency. He should be thrown out the door as well.

 

But I wonder, after Donahoe left, how much power exactly does the man responsible for the Bills salary structure (Overdorf) have, exactly?

 

I don't think he controls the cash. Littman is the ultimate money person. Overdorf may make recommendations and be the internal expert on the cap, but it is likely that the actual financial decisions come out of Detroit. Littman or Ralph himself. The way Ralph is with his money, those decisions probably come closer to home. It's not much different that Brandon having no real decision making power. If he won't give it to Brandon, I doubt Overdorf has it either.

[Nevergiveup]

first, i don't answer to you.

 

second, i question your second statement. you say that Mr. Wilson has not hired someone from outside the organization that worked out.

so,

-- are you suggesting he promote from within?

-- or are you suggesting that his decision to spend big money on Tom Donahoe was wrong?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have spent big money on Tom Donahoe? or are you suggesting that Mr. Wilson was snakebit for hiring Tom Donahoe, which is why he hasn't gone outside the organization to hire another GM since 2005, which actually proves that you agree with Mr. Wilson?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have promoted Bill Polian to the GM job?

 

exactly, what is it that you're suggesting?

 

and i'm pleased your making reference to the "Inner Circle," because that's what the AP got out of Mr. Wilson a year ago. but you seem to be the one who doesn't think the media in town is worth a grain of salt, and yet you seem to be good at quoting us.

 

my my, what a conundrum.

 

jw

 

 

John. I think everyone would like to have more insight on the situation. Short of taking a pay cut and getting a journalism job, we are counting on you. I personally will refrain from using the term "inner circle" so you don't send me a cease and desist order. I didn't realize it was trademarked and part of a renowned investigation into the Bills organization. I must have missed the 6 part series you ran on ESPN and all the groundbreaking information.

 

Man...lighten up.

[vizslafan]

Hello Mr Wawrow.

 

What impact did Linda Bogdan's passing have on Ralph's decision making? It seems as though over the past couple years the decisions at One Bills Drive have gotten wackier. Possibly she was a "football voice" that could overturn Littman/Overdorf if all they care about are numbers. Clearly she was a member of the inner circle. Linda may have been able to provide some balance and Ralph most likely would listen to her. Do you have any insight into this?

 

Thanks..

 

VizslaFan

Dallas, TX

[spartacus]

first, i don't answer to you.

 

second, i question your second statement. you say that Mr. Wilson has not hired someone from outside the organization that worked out.

so,

-- are you suggesting he promote from within?

-- or are you suggesting that his decision to spend big money on Tom Donahoe was wrong?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have spent big money on Tom Donahoe? or are you suggesting that Mr. Wilson was snakebit for hiring Tom Donahoe, which is why he hasn't gone outside the organization to hire another GM since 2005, which actually proves that you agree with Mr. Wilson?

-- or are you suggesting that he shouldn't have promoted Bill Polian to the GM job?

 

exactly, what is it that you're suggesting?

 

and i'm pleased your making reference to the "Inner Circle," because that's what the AP got out of Mr. Wilson a year ago. but you seem to be the one who doesn't think the media in town is worth a grain of salt, and yet you seem to be good at quoting us.

 

my my, what a conundrum.

 

jw

 

1. Ralph and his Inner Circle have proven over 50 years they can not identify what a top flight football guy looks like

 

maybe its time for Ralph to get some help and hire a consultant like Ron Wolfe or an executive search firm to identify the qualifications needed and the best candidates

 

the best he could do last time was bring in the Marv to set the franchise back 5 years

 

2. by the way, Ralph had no clue what he had in Polian when he promoted him over Ralph's hand picked disaster, Terry Bledsoe. At the time, Polian was the cheap in house promotion favored by Ralph to fill most vacancies.

 

3. You guys did such a good job with breaking that Inner Circle story that you forgot to identify who is in it and how do they enforce accountability for the stupid decisions they make

[Delete This Account]

John. I think everyone would like to have more insight on the situation. Short of taking a pay cut and getting a journalism job, we are counting on you. I personally will refrain from using the term "inner circle" so you don't send me a cease and desist order. I didn't realize it was trademarked and part of a renowned investigation into the Bills organization. I must have missed the 6 part series you ran on ESPN and all the groundbreaking information.

 

Man...lighten up.

i'd suggest you not get in the middle of this silly ongoing personal tit for tat i've got going with a certain other poster. ... but since you're not willing to take a paycut, then i'm relieved to know that our ranks in the business won't swell any time soon.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

1. Ralph and his Inner Circle have proven over 50 years they can not identify what a top flight football guy looks like

 

maybe its time for Ralph to get some help and hire a consultant like Ron Wolfe or an executive search firm to identify the qualifications needed and the best candidates

 

the best he could do last time was bring in the Marv to set the franchise back 5 years

 

2. by the way, Ralph had no clue what he had in Polian when he promoted him over Ralph's hand picked disaster, Terry Bledsoe. At the time, Polian was the cheap in house promotion favored by Ralph to fill most vacancies.

 

3. You guys did such a good job with breaking that Inner Circle story that you forgot to identify who is in it and how do they enforce accountability for the stupid decisions they make

1. debatable.

2. speculation, unless of course Mr. Wilson told you himself he had no clue.

3. it was in the story that Mr. Wilson intended to add Modrak into the inner circle. as for who's in that circle, if you don't know, you aren't part of it.

 

jw

[BillsVet]

John. I think everyone would like to have more insight on the situation. Short of taking a pay cut and getting a journalism job, we are counting on you. I personally will refrain from using the term "inner circle" so you don't send me a cease and desist order. I didn't realize it was trademarked and part of a renowned investigation into the Bills organization. I must have missed the 6 part series you ran on ESPN and all the groundbreaking information.

 

Man...lighten up.

 

Here we go again. Another internet hero flexing some cyber muscles who wants to butt in and attempt to discredit someone who covers the team. Morons.

 

I don't understand what you get out of ripping John for coming onto this board. If the guy leaves, it's idiots like you and spartacus who will be to blame.

 

Real winners we got here sometimes.

[Delete This Account]

Hello Mr Wawrow.

 

What impact did Linda Bogdan's passing have on Ralph's decision making? It seems as though over the past couple years the decisions at One Bills Drive have gotten wackier. Possibly she was a "football voice" that could overturn Littman/Overdorf if all they care about are numbers. Clearly she was a member of the inner circle. Linda may have been able to provide some balance and Ralph most likely would listen to her. Do you have any insight into this?

 

Thanks..

 

VizslaFan

Dallas, TX

Linda had a close bond with Mr. Wilson, and her passing was difficult, as it would be for any father.

as for what role she played, i can't really tell. the inner workings of the bills have been very difficult to judge this decade, and particularly after Donahoe's reign. what i can say is the Mr. Wilson has the final say over his team, and all major decisions, signings go through him.

i would suggest that Jim Overdorf has had much control over the roster over the past four seasons.

 

jw

[Delete This Account]

Here we go again. Another internet hero flexing some cyber muscles who wants to butt in and attempt to discredit someone who covers the team. Morons.

 

I don't understand what you get out of ripping John for coming onto this board. If the guy leaves, it's idiots like you and spartacus who will be to blame.

 

Real winners we got here sometimes.

ain't going anywhere BVet so c'mon lighten up ...

 

jw

 

but thanks for the support.

[Amstel]

John I appreciate your insight. Since we aren't part of Ralph's inner circle we're all just going to have to wait and see how things shake out and what he chooses to do. Thanks again, for taking time to share with the board.

[Nevergiveup]

i'd suggest you not get in the middle of this silly ongoing personal tit for tat i've got going with a certain other poster. ... but since you're not willing to take a paycut, then i'm relieved to know that our ranks in the business won't swell any time soon.

 

jw

 

 

Your right. It is silly and I will stay out of it. I appreciate you covering the Bills. I am really only riding you because I have some extra time during the holiday. I probably should find something more constructive to do. Thanks for contributing to the topic. I really am interested in what will happen next.

[Nevergiveup]

Here we go again. Another internet hero flexing some cyber muscles who wants to butt in and attempt to discredit someone who covers the team. Morons.

 

I don't understand what you get out of ripping John for coming onto this board. If the guy leaves, it's idiots like you and spartacus who will be to blame.

 

Real winners we got here sometimes.

 

 

What part of what I said was not true?

 

- I would like more insight

- Would be taking a pay cut

- He probably has not trademarked the term "Inner Circle"

- and I did miss the 6 part ESPN series unless there never was one.

 

I did already attempt to make nice with him and I will refrain from further banter if it makes you feel better.

[BillsVet]

ain't going anywhere BVet so c'mon lighten up ...

 

jw

 

but thanks for the support.

 

I try to lighten up on the treadmill as much as I can after work.

[Sisyphean Bills]

personally, i think what Mr. Wilson was trying to do, is not lie, by revealing the Bills were interested in Shanahan. it's why the team, afterward, sent out a press release noting it wasn't going to discuss its coaching search, which in an awkward -- yet truthful way -- is what i think Mr. Wilson meant to say when he told me he knew nothing about the guy.

 

jw

Not sure how to parse that first sentence, JW. Do you mean he was trying not to reveal that the Bills were interested in Shanahan? And, do you mean that you think he wasn't being truthful about not [really] knowing the man, Coach Shanahan? I take quotes from Ralph to be pretty close to his honest opinion. He rarely has shirked away from calling a spade a spade as far as I have seen.

 

It's perfectly in line with SOP that the Bills try to keep their cards close to the vest, of course. Anyway, thanks for the reply.

[mikecole1]

Overdorf holds the purse strings, no?

 

And isn't Overdorf the one who has the say on letting free agents go? Isn't he the one who was put in charge of the financial and business side of the Bills, to mirror the role Brandon currently has on the football side? Wasn't it Overdorf who always fought with Polian when he was here?

 

I don't see how Overdorf could have influenced the drafts for the past decade- which still tells me that good 'ol Tommy Mo down in FL can stay down there permanently. He has had 9 drafts and has sucked at every one of them.

 

Guy has also brought in nothing but losers in free agency. He should be thrown out the door as well.

 

But I wonder, after Donahoe left, how much power exactly does the man responsible for the Bills salary structure (Overdorf) have, exactly?

 

Was it Littman or Overdorf that Polian always clashed with? I thought it was Littman.

[bills44]

Was it Littman or Overdorf that Polian always clashed with? I thought it was Littman.

 

That's my recollection as well. Those were the pre-Inner Circle days, apparently.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Was it Littman or Overdorf that Polian always clashed with? I thought it was Littman.

I think Overdorf was just an intern back then. Yes, it was that long ago. <sigh>

[Delete This Account]

Not sure how to parse that first sentence, JW. Do you mean he was trying not to reveal that the Bills were interested in Shanahan? And, do you mean that you think he wasn't being truthful about not [really] knowing the man, Coach Shanahan? I take quotes from Ralph to be pretty close to his honest opinion. He rarely has shirked away from calling a spade a spade as far as I have seen.

 

It's perfectly in line with SOP that the Bills try to keep their cards close to the vest, of course. Anyway, thanks for the reply.

sorry, you're right my awkwardly phrased response. was trying to squeeze that response inbetween takes on my T.O. piece today.

i think Mr. Wilson knows who Mike Shanahan is.

it's my belief that he provided the response that he didn't know anything about him, because it was his best way of saying "no comment" without saying "no comment." anything else -- even a no comment -- might have been construed as him confirming the team's interest, which he didn't want to do.

 

in my opinion, Mr. Wilson was being honest by providing an answer that was open to some interpretation. and, since the bills at that point had not talked to Shanahan, it could have been interpreted as Mr. Wilson saying he doesn't know anything about Shanahan's interest in the Bills nor what interest the Bills might have after speaking to him. it's also likely true they've never met except, perhaps, in passing.

 

that's my take.

 

as for playing cards close to their vest, that's the SOP, as you put it, of many teams. sabres, patriots, ub bulls (on their most recent coaching search) ... i can go on.

 

jw

[....lybob]

I call it Wilson's inner block, with Wilson being the chief blockhead and the rest being lesser blockheads but maybe it's a circle and they're just jerks cause it seems like a big circle jerk.

[Sisyphean Bills]

sorry, you're right my awkwardly phrased response. was trying to squeeze that response inbetween takes on my T.O. piece today.

i think Mr. Wilson knows who Mike Shanahan is.

it's my belief that he provided the response that he didn't know anything about him, because it was his best way of saying "no comment" without saying "no comment." anything else -- even a no comment -- might have been construed as him confirming the team's interest, which he didn't want to do.

 

in my opinion, Mr. Wilson was being honest by providing an answer that was open to some interpretation. and, since the bills at that point had not talked to Shanahan, it could have been interpreted as Mr. Wilson saying he doesn't know anything about Shanahan's interest in the Bills nor what interest the Bills might have after speaking to him. it's also likely true they've never met except, perhaps, in passing.

 

that's my take.

 

as for playing cards close to their vest, that's the SOP, as you put it, of many teams. sabres, patriots, ub bulls (on their most recent coaching search) ... i can go on.

 

jw

Thanks for the clarification, jw. It is greatly appreciated. Yes, professional sports does tend towards the paranoid. The Bills just seem to be a little more to the right of the curve is all I meant. They never release any information about contract terms, etc. whereas other teams don't mind sharing a tad of information with the fans. It's not universal, of course. They did announce their decision to go with the no-huddle offense in mini-camps.

[spartacus]

1. Agree that the only indication of money being spent by the Bills has come from unsupported media speculation. Having eaten Dick's contract, any real NFL coach will require Ralph to fire the remaining staff which will not sit well with Littman. Expect Fewell to stay as HC or another craptacular has-been like Haslett who will be required to keep most of the existing staff. (It was the injuries in 2009, not bad coaching)

 

2. Disagree on GM. No one in the Bills organization has indicated that ANY changes will be made in the front office, let alone a total overhaul with a new GM. The most Ralph has said, is that he will consider the "possibility" of making changes in the front office and that was immediately after firing Dick. Now that he has calmed down, don't expect much. People are going to be sorely disappointed when next season starts with the Inner Circle Jerk intact, except for the likely addition of the 70 year old Buddy Nix.

 

3. Polian. Even with Polian, Ralph did not suddenly become an astute talent evaluator. At the time, Polian again was the cheap internal promotion- after Ralph's hand picked GM, Terry Bledsoe, failed miserably. Without a topflight consultant like Ron Wolf or an NFL executive search firm, the likelihood of the Bills obtaining a quality GM are next to nil.

 

so this is what constitutes a major revamp