A moron-free thread on the Bills OLine

[Mike in Syracuse]

Facts have no place on the retard rollercoaster that is today's TSW.

 

Priceless!

[Dawgg]

What about this fact:

 

Excluding the first 3-13 season with the salary cap purge, the Donahoe regime has fielded a 17-24 team.

 

That is a fact about Donahoe's tenure in Buffalo.

 

If this was Arizona or some other team that doesn't spend money and make the moves to win, such mediocrity is palpable. However, in Buffalo, that is not the case.

 

Simon brought up a lot of facts regarding his tenure in Pittsburgh, where Donahoe did a great job. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of his job here. Bottom line.

 

 

Facts have no place on the retard rollercoaster that is today's TSW.

 

Good post, Simon.

122022[/snapback]

[Bill from NYC]

Simon, drafting offensive linemen and offensive linemen that can play football are two different things.

Who did he draft?

1) Jennings: Nice pick. He is fairly good when healthy.

2) Mike Williams: Bust.

3) Pucillo: Please

4) Sobieski: I dont know, is he alive?

5) McFarland: Yeah, sure.

 

Who were the free agents?

1) Teague: Sorry, I dont see him as all that good. He is light in the ass and gets beat up by the bigger DTs.

2) Villarial: I like him a lot.

3) Price: Fine backup.

 

I dont know if Tucker was drafted or not, but I think that he has the potential to be a good player.

 

What does this leave us with in 05?

A RT who we hope is average to slightly above average, a LT who wants out and is NOT worth the big bucks, a good RG, a small and not so strong Center and a project or 2 at LG. Oh, and no first round pick to boot.

Does this sound good to you?

 

Let's give Drew a ton of the blame. No problem. The OL is still a virtual mess, and our so-so RT is making almost Pace money....so much, that it would cost millions to cut him. I cannot remember any GM in the history of football drafting an overweight RT in the top 5, and I could care less about the left handed qb in college thing. If MW was good enough to play the blindside he would be doing so, especially at that salary.

 

You may consider the above to be idiocy, but TD has failed to bring a respectable OL to the Buffalo Bills.

[1billsfan]

Those of you clamoring about how awful the OLine was in NE Sunday night?

WRONG

 

Stepping off my soapbox.........

121980[/snapback]

 

I think our offensive line has been bad for going on ten years now. The reason teams like KC, the Colts, Denver and the Vikings are so good is that they have offensive lines that week in week out will give you top notch efforts and they have the skills to do this. Our line is not cut out for consistently good performances along those standards. They did not open any holes for Travis and Willis has gotten the bulk of his on his shear will of not going down easy. I agree that Drew has made them look bad in pass mode, but I think they split in the who's at fault for the sack total. That's still not good. Trey Teague? No good. Mike Williams? No good and apparently doesn't even like football. Jonas? Hello Atlanta. Left Guard? Still looking. This is the biggest mess left to clean up after Drew exits. I will clamor about this until it's fixed and I'm afraid that's going to be a very long time.

[Bill from NYC]

I think our offensive line has been bad for going on ten years now. The reason teams like KC, the Colts, Denver and the Vikings are so good is that they have offensive lines that week in week out will give you top notch efforts and they have the skills to do this. Our line is not cut out for consistently good performances along those standards. They did not open any holes for Travis and Willis has gotten the bulk of his on his shear will of not going down easy. I agree that Drew has made them look bad in pass mode, but I think they split in the who's at fault for the sack total. That's still not good. Trey Teague? No good. Mike Williams? No good and apparently doesn't even like football. Jonas? Hello Atlanta. Left Guard? Still looking. This is the biggest mess left to clean up after Drew exits. I will clamor about this until it's fixed and I'm afraid that's going to be a very long time.

122235[/snapback]

 

Very well stated. I see no reason to pretend that this is a good unit.

[1billsfan]

Very well stated. I see no reason to pretend that this is a good unit.

122252[/snapback]

 

The club is growing and it will be standing room only when Losman and McGahee are getting decked every week closing out yet another lost season.

[Generation ME]

Remember when the Bills could actually pass for more than 150 yards a game ? I barely can. The point being, the opposing D couldn't stack the line and make our walking concussion of a QB beat them.

 

Enter Losman. He makes just a few plays downfield and suddenly the D will not dictate the game by stacking the line. Didn't Henry gain 2800 + yards total over the last 2 years ?

 

Hmm. Good QB play works like a domino affect on the entire offense, including the OL. Let's give Losman a chance and see if the ability to score rises back from the dead. I bet the playcalling is 75% different. That giant sucking noise is Bledsoe dragging down the other 10 offensive players with him.

 

Bledsoe had tons of time to throw Sunday and showed why he's completely washed up. Couldn't complete simple playground pass. So the D sticks 8 in the box and just tackles Willis as he barely gets the handoff.

 

Yes, it's all the OL.

[Simon]

Defend TD all you want, the results of his work are on the field every Sunday and it isn't pretty......

You're right Mick, the results have not been pretty at times. But I really believe that if you eliminate Donahoe's one big mistake (Bledsoe), that this team is currently competing for a playoff spot with a rookie headcoach in the NFL's toughest division. That would be nothing to scoff at and if it's true, it points out what a great job he has done. I'm not ready to cast aspersions on this guy until we get a chacne to see this offense being run by a real NFL QB.

 

did you see how fast this kid gets out from under center? DAMN! Some people don't understand that it doesn't just help against the rush, but it gives JP that one more split second to read the D after he has set his feet. It was amazing to watch.

I was looking for it because Drew's glacial drops have been annoying me for a long while. I knew it would be quicker but I didn't realize how much quicker it would be. Compared to Bledsoe, it was indeed amazing.

 

if the OLine has been "addressed", then why after every poor Drew outing do we always hear MM saying, "missed blocking assignments" and such. And if the line is so good, in TD/MMs eyes, why put in DLinemen in key situations?

Words hold no meaning for me. The only thing I care about is what I see on the field, and what I've seen is an OLine with little practice time playing solid ball throughout most of the year. As for the DLinemen substitutions, I don't think using players non-traditionally says anything about the OLine. The Pats use Vrabel and Seymour at the goalline and I don't think their TE's suck.

 

if TD has concentrated so much on the o-line, why is it that, but for a last-second find by John Guy of Lawrence Smith, we wouldn't even have a full starter at Left Guard?

Ross Tucker would be starting

isn't TD to blame not only for the Bledsoe acquisition, but also more importantly for NOT ADDRESSING THE QB SITUATION LAST OFFSEASON?

I can't defend that, nor can I defend his abhorrent history at teh QB position. Personally I'd like to see him remain as GM but intentionally remove himself from all decisions re: the Bills QB position

 

Thats why he hired offensive minded coaches to recussitate him and that's why he drafted Lee Evans.

I think his hiring of Mularkey/Clements/Wyche had as much if not more to do with developing a bluechip rookie QB as it did with Drew. And I think he drafted Lee Evans because he felt he was the best player on the board, which has always seemed to be Donahoe's MO.

That being said, I cannot defend his decision to trade for, stick with or extend Bledsoe. He has a history of trouble evaluating QB's and I can only pray that he finally hit on one with Losman.

 

I don't know what's sillier, we morons who out up detailed posts or the morons who claim longer posts are a waste or time and then waste their time to read them. I guess even worse are those who see them as too long to read and give fact-free opinions (by definition since they didn't read it) that the post or poster is stupid.

My favorites are the ones who can't find the patience to read them but can still find the time to actually post that they're not going to read them. Like anybody gives a damn whether they read them or not!-)

 

Do you see some huge outside rush problem from our RT?

I just think his slidestep and lateral movement are inadequate. In addition to making speedrushers troublesome for him, it also creates problems when he has to switch off to pick up stunts/twists. He could probably solve the problem by cutting 50lbs but I don't think either of us expect that to happen anytime soon. I hope McNally can coach him up so that the Bills don't feel they need to move him inside. It'd be a shame to see that much talent moved from Tackle and create a much bigger problem for the Bills as Tackle is a much harder position to fill.

 

2) Mike Williams: Bust.

I'm not even considering going there yet. He's a young Tackle getting his first pro coaching. He's been average at RT and I expect continued improvement as he continues to work with a real NFL staff and continues to gain the experience that all yung Tackles need before they become legitimate pros.

Teague: Sorry, I dont see him as all that good. He is light in the ass.....a small and not so strong Center

I remember another Bills Center who was somewhat light in the ass and not so strong. He was recently nominated for enshrinement in the NFL HOF. Teague has been great this year (co-incidentally after also receiving his first pro coaching as an NFL center) and even if he doesn't improve another iota, he'll still be a fne starting Center for this team.

 

Trey Teague? No good. Mike Williams? No good and apparently doesn't even like football. Jonas? Hello Atlanta. Left Guard? Still looking. This is the biggest mess left to clean up after Drew exits. I will clamor about this until it's fixed and I'm afraid that's going to be a very long time.

I have little doubt that you will continue to clamor about this, whether it's fixed or even needs to be. However, somebody who runs around screaming we have the worst OLine in football has no credibility with me.

 

 

 

Thanx for some great responses y'all. It's refreshing to see reasoned disagreement as opposed to a mindless moronathon!

 

Cya

[Fla Bills Fan]

To summarize:

 

Drew made the line look worse than it actually was. He had to step up this game to keep the defense honest and open up holes for the running game and he didn't. Blame Drew, as his field vision and his tendency to make mistakes at crucial situations did this team in.

 

Who acquired Drew Bledsoe for a first round pick?

 

Tom Donahoe

 

Who -- despite it being plainly obvious that Drew Bledsoe was maddeningly inconsistent and too slow (in mind and body) for today's NFL -- STUCK with Bledsoe and blamed just about everyone else on his failure to produce?

 

Tom Donahoe

 

Who spent a high first round pick on Lee Evans under the notion that the WR corps at present was not sufficient and what Drew Bledsoe was truly lacking last year was a deep threat to stretch the field?

 

Tom Donahoe

 

That is where I cast blame on him.  He made a move in acquiring Bledsoe which at the time was a superb one.  Bledsoe put up one of the best half-seasons I have seen.  But since then, he has been nothing but mediocre AT BEST.  For Donahoe to still stick by him, and continue to insist that the offense's shortcomings are attributable to other players and coaching but NOT Drew Bledsoe -- to me, that signals the sign of a poor Team President.

122025[/snapback]

The coach determines who plays, not the president / gm. If you don't think we needed a receiver like Evans you are one of very few.

[34-78-83]

Well conducted thread Simon and all...

 

I'd add that I think at times the missed assignments mentioned postgame by the coach included backs and TE's. Of course everyone has a mind of their own but this is something that can often influence an overall perception of how an O-line is playing. The O-line is the Rodney Dangerfield of football. They don't get talked about when they make good plays combined with the fact that when Joe Schmoe sees a Defensive lineman coming clean he assumes that an offensive lineman is at fault. Sometimes that is the case, and sometimes it is the responsibiltiy of a back or TE , and other times yet it is a planned unaccounted for man that the play is designed to account for by the flow of the football.

[34-78-83]

I'd also add though that while I agree that teams are generally out to shut down our running game and make Drew try to beat them, The O-line still needs to block better for the riunning game. There are teams out there who can run at will , wether it's based on talent or intelligence, and we need to get closer to that to be effective, especially with the amount of poor weather our team plays in.

[Ray]

Simon, great great post. Well thought out but as Alaska stated facts and reason have no place on this board.

[1billsfan]

I have little doubt that you will continue to clamor about this, whether it's fixed or even needs to be. However, somebody who runs around screaming we have the worst OLine in football has no credibility with me.

 

 

122647[/snapback]

 

You saying our O-line is fine and that Trey Teague is a great center reminds me of Dorothy's line "There no place like home, there's no place like home". BTW I think credibility is down the list of things you'd know about.

[AKC]

 

Those of you clamoring about how awful the OLine was in NE Sunday night?

WRONG

 

Stepping off my soapbox.........

121980[/snapback]

 

OK, I'll bite.

 

I don't have film for the frist itme this year because the little lady was in the hospital yada yada yada. On the one game view I was able to make Bledsoe sucked, the first throw to the middle fo nowhere was followed by even worse offerings. I thought early on the opportunities to move the ball on the ground (and especaily on the right side) were not well addressed by our linemen but I'll concede the point with no backup to review.

 

Your call is that Bledsoe was unable to adjust personally to the scheme Belichick came to play, which was to overcrowd the line and bring it on nearly every play to confuse his former QB (and hide his deficiencies in the D backfield), and it worked perfectly.

 

I have to ask you in your opinion how many times this season, previous to this game, was an opposing coach able to beat us by simply unvieling a strategy to befuddle our QB and having that strategy play out the way it was designed?

[BB2004]

Sorry to start yet another thread on this well-worn subject, but I just wanted to address a couple different points I keep seeing repeatedly posted here.

One of these is about Sunday night. I've read about a hunderd different posts lamenting how awful the OLine was in NE and it makes me wonder exactly what the hell it is that some of you want from these guys?

Drew had good protection on his drop backs, just like he has for the vast majority of the year so there's no point in even commenting on the pass-protection because even most of the those complaining about the OLine conceded that they were solid in defending the pocket.

The issue that lots of folks are complaining about was the difficulty we had in creating the kind of lanes in the gorund game we've seen throughout much of the year. And this is where I wonder what y'all expect. The Patriots spent the entire night crowding the line and just pouring people into every gap on the LOS. In fact if somebody has the stomach to watch the film, I bet you'll find Belichik/Crennel even spent significant time stacking a 4-4. You can't expect 5-6 guys to block 8-9 guys with any consistency and then chew them out when they don't do it.

The only way you can run the ball in that situation is for your QB to back them out of such an agressive posture by making them pay for their unwillingness to defend the short/intermediate zones. And Drew was again unable to do that even though I'd bet my house we had receivers running free through that depleted secondary all night.

Our inability to run the ball had little to do with the OLine's play and everything to do with the Patritos utter disdain for Drew's vision and ability. And falling back on the old "It's the OLine" cliche is equally inappropriate and inaccurate.

 

Another thing I wanted to comment on is the dozens of posts we continue to see complaining about TD's unwillingness to address the OLine and his fialure to understand that winning football starts in the trenches.

Hogwash.

TD's first two years here he was financially handcuffed and couldn't do anything in FA, so instead he chose to address both lines through the draft. In those two drafts he had a total of 9 first day picks after some shrewd horsedealing. Of those 9 picks he spent 5 of them on trenchmen; that's over 50% of his most valuable picks appropriated to the lines in his first two years. It's also worth mentioneing that the most valuable pick he'll ever have as the Bills GM went to the OLine, and that as strapped for cash as he was, he still dedicated some of what little he had to signing OT MPrice.

His next two years he had more freedom to maneuver so he changed his strategy somewhat. Of his 6 Day1 picks he only spent 2 of them in the trenches, instead opting to draft our future at QB, RB and WR. But did he ignore the OLine? Hell, no! He went out and spent money on it in FA, bringing in Trey Teague (who has become a very good Center since he's been playing for McNally/Clements) and then topping that by acquiring the most coveted and valuable Guard in the entire FA pool in Chris Vilarial.

 

Finally I just wanted to point something out to the many folks who continue to comment on how much better off teh Stillers are now that Donahoe is gone. During most of TD's tenure the Stillers were consistently kicking the shlt out of people and winng their division regularly; so in that aspect, nothing has really changed. Also considering that the strenght of this Stillers team is undeniably their OLine, I find it interesting that of the 6 starters on that unit, 5 of them were Donahoe acquisitions (the lone exception being RG KeydrickVincent). I also find it interesting that the Stillers were so content with TD's work in the trenches that since he left Pittsburgh they have only bothered to spend a grand total of 3 firstday picks on linemen over all those years.

 

So those of you claiming that TD doesn't understand that you win football games from the trenches out?

WRONG

Those of you claiming that TD hasn't bothered to address our trenches since he arrived here?

WRONG

Those of you clamoring about how awful the OLine was in NE Sunday night?

WRONG

 

Stepping off my soapbox.........

121980[/snapback]

A good post but it doesn't change the way the offensive line has been playing. Yes they are improving, but there isn't a standout. There isn't someone who you can honestly say "I don't want to go up against.......... he massive and hard to beat one on one. It's going to be a long day." I'd like to see that happen. Sometimes all you need is one guy on any unit to step up and make impact plays. It becomes contagious.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

You saying our O-line is fine and that Trey Teague is a great center reminds me of Dorothy's line "There no place like home, there's no place like home".  BTW I think credibility is down the list of things you'd know about.

122687[/snapback]

 

 

I'll come to Simon's defense on this one (since he took the time to do some great and detailed commentary which I see as TSW at its best) because you misquote and mischaracterize his comments.

 

He specifically stated in his post leading off this thread:

 

Trey Teague (who has become a very good Center since he's been playing for McNally/Clements

 

I think there is a significant difference between your incorrect attribution to Simon that he called Teague a "great center" and his statement that he has become a very good center since he started playing for JMac Clements. I think that while a claim that he is great could legitimately be identified as a fantasy, the claim that he is now very good is merely open to debate. Further, since he stated a specific time in Teague's work he was referring to, this not only applies this consideration to a time period which does not include Teague's worse play when he would occaisionally get bowled over, it not only strengthens his claim, but it sets the table for true debate rather than a general attack that he is involved in some fantasy.

 

Your post is simply incorrect.

[1billsfan]

I'll come to Simon's defense on this one (since he took the time to do some great and detailed commentary which I see as TSW at its best) because you misquote and mischaracterize his comments.

 

He specifically stated in his post leading off this thread:

 

Trey Teague (who has become a very good Center since he's been playing for McNally/Clements

 

I think there is a significant difference between your incorrect attribution to Simon that he called Teague a "great center" and his statement that he has become a very good center since he started playing for JMac Clements.  I think that while a claim that he is great could legitimately be identified as a fantasy, the claim that he is now very good is merely open to debate.  Further, since he stated a specific time in Teague's work he was referring to, this not only applies this consideration to a time period which does not include Teague's worse play when he would occaisionally get bowled over, it not only strengthens his claim, but it sets the table for true debate rather than a general attack that he is involved in some fantasy.

 

Your post is simply incorrect.

122717[/snapback]

 

We are 22nd in the NFL in rushing with Travis Henry and Willis McGahee as our running backs.

We are 27th in the NFL in passing.

 

You and Simon are both living in a fantasy if you think our offensive line doesn't have anything to do with those numbers.

[DeeRay]

The issue that lots of folks are complaining about was the difficulty we had in creating the kind of lanes in the gorund game we've seen throughout much of the year. And this is where I wonder what y'all expect. The Patriots spent the entire night crowding the line and just pouring people into every gap on the LOS. In fact if somebody has the stomach to watch the film, I bet you'll find Belichik/Crennel even spent significant time stacking a 4-4. You can't expect 5-6 guys to block 8-9 guys with any consistency and then chew them out when they don't do it.

The only way you can run the ball in that situation is for your QB to back them out of such an agressive posture by making them pay for their unwillingness to defend the short/intermediate zones. And Drew was again unable to do that even though I'd bet my house we had receivers running free through that depleted secondary all night.

Our inability to run the ball had little to do with the OLine's play and everything to do with the Patritos utter disdain for Drew's vision and ability. And falling back on the old "It's the OLine" cliche is equally inappropriate and inaccurate.

 

Dude... from one moron to another... I've posted this a few times... beginning last season and it was dismissed as a bunch of stevestojan.

 

Almost every defense that the bills offense faces uses the same strategy. They stack the line and run blitz... if Bledsoe happens to have a pass called on one of those run blitzes... so what? The opposing defense is willing to bet that they can either bother Bledsoe enough to either make a bad decision (ie. throw of back foot, throw a bad pass, move into a rush from the side) or get sacked. The opposition defense is basically attacking the weakest link... make Bledsoe beat us... not Moulds, not McGahee, not Evans.

 

Apparently Simon, morons like you and I, are the only ones that seem to understand that the bills offense is handcuffed as long as Bledsoe is the QB.

We seem to be the only ones that understand that the Bledsoe offense cannot use a moving pocket left or a moving pocket right. They cannot call for the QB to roll right or roll left. They cannot successfully execute a bootleg. They cannot realize any benefit from a spread offense. And lastly... the offensive line cannot continue to take the blame, as you stated, for either the stupidity, stubborness, or lack of balls by the head coach.

 

So... what's the answer to the problem? JP, Mathews?

 

Well, we know what the answer isn't... B-L-E-D-S-O-E !!!

 

OK... so Mike "full of" Mularkey says JP aint ready. OK, I'll give him that.

 

What about Matthews? Why isn't he ready? Simple... if Matthews starts and is succesful, that makes the entire coaching staff look inept... because they could have played the "Matthews" card several weeks ago and perhaps garnered a couple of more wins... thus making the Bills really still in the playoff hunt.

[Dawgg]

Didn't say it wasn't a need. But Donahoe made his offseason moves under the guise that Drew Bledsoe can be fixed.

 

He was wrong.

 

The coach determines who plays, not the president / gm. If you don't think we needed a receiver like Evans you are one of very few.

122654[/snapback]

[JStranger76]

Trey Teague is not a top center in the league. Duh! We know this. But, he is pretty good and you don't bring in a center just to bring in a center unless he has Mawai-like potential. We have way bigger fish to fry..............