Orton's Arm

As good a value as he may be, something tells me the Bills wouldn't have taken Youboty if Nate had been locked up to a long-term contract. The uncertainty about Clements' contract is too bad, because this team really could have used a good offensive lineman or two on the first day of the draft.

A lousy post from start to finish. First off, it's not safe to take a SS #8 overall. Because safety is a lower impact position than, say, DL or left tackle, that SS has to perform at a very high level to justify that kind of pick. Will Whitner become an elite enough SS to justify where he was taken? Secondly, I never claimed to know more than Maylock or any other draft analyst. Apparently, making this personal is your way of distracting yourself from my less than rose colored message. As for what I would have done--if I thought Leinart or Cutler would be a significant upgrade over Nall, I'd have taken a QB. If not, I'd have traded down; using a pick in the middle or lower part of the first round to take Mangold. If two of the top three QBs fall to #8, you either pick one of them, or you trade down. One or the other.

Leading up to the draft, I noticed four groups of posters: - Those who advocated the Bills take the best available lineman at #8 - Those who advocated the Bills take the best available non-QB at #8 (Hawk, Davis, etc.) - Those who were willing to take a QB at #8 - Those who wanted to trade down, then maybe do one of the above things By taking Whitner, Levy has managed to annoy all four of the above groups. None of the posts I've seen on these boards advocated taking him at #8. None of the mock drafts I've seen had him going to the Bills or in the top ten. Yet there are those who insist on defending this pick, as I knew there would be. Marv could do almost anything whatsoever, and I know that some people would search for any available reason or excuse to defend him. The reasons I've seen bandied about are these: 1. A trade-down wasn't available. I find this very difficult to believe. Even if Denver had a trade partner lined up, I'm sure they would at least have been willing to give to the Bills whatever it is they ended up giving to their current trade partner. 2. The Bills needed to upgrade Coy Wire. While true, he could easily have been upgraded in the second, third, or even fourth round. 3. Whitner might have been taken by Detroit at #9. So what? This is a deep draft. Had the Bills traded down to, say, #15, and Whitner was no longer there, they could have traded down again for even more picks. Can you honestly say Whitner is going to be the sort of elite player that you don't trade away? I invite any of those defending this Whitner pick to show me their pre-draft posts suggesting we take him.

If by some miracle Leinart's still on the board when the Bills pick, I think you have to take him. Earlier in this thread Leinart was described as the next Ryan Leaf. I disagree. When Manning and Leaf were atop the draft, people described Manning as the more polished of the two, with Leaf having more upside due to his stronger arm. Well, Leinart is also polished, and also lacks a big-time arm. Not that this makes him Peyton Manning, but I see less risk than normal for a first round QB.

By no means is this a given. The Bills have Nall, a QB Green Bay liked so much they drafted Aaron Rogers. They have Holcomb, a QB nobody really wanted when he was a free agent. And they have another player also, who wasn't selected by either the current general manager, the current head coach, or the current offensive coordinator. Rumor has it this quarterback's trade value would be little. If the other GMs of the league think little of this player, why should the Bills' GM--who also didn't pick him--see the situation differently? Given the uncertainty about how committed Marv is or isn't to any of the quarterbacks on the roster, it's credible the Bills could take a QB at #8 with more in mind than just trading him away.

It would be an excellent chance to trade down.

Marv Levy remarked, "I'm going to bring the Bills back to the Super Bowl. We already have a quarterback named Kelly, and a wide receiver named Reed. Now that we've got a running back named Thomas, we can't be stopped!"

The Bills' offense Collins was handed was hardly a Ferrari. Collins didn't become a full-time starter until 1997. By that time, the TE position had the following players: Tony Cline, Lonnie Johnson, and Jay Riemersma. The WR corps had good players past their primes: Steve Tasker, Quinn Early, and an aging Andre Reed. Thurman Thomas was on his last legs, with Antowain Smith assuming an increasing share of the load. Look at the offensive line: Ruben Brown, Bill Conaty, John Fina, Corey Louchiey, Corbin Lacina, Jamie Nails, Jerry Ostroski, Mike Rockwood, Marcus Spriggs, and Dusty Zeigler. Not exactly the same group that provided the stellar blocking in the Raiders AFC Championship blowout back in the early '90s. The group of offensive players Losman was given to work with was remarkably similar to this: good WRs, and questionable OL. The 2005 Bills were better off at RB, while the 1997 Bills had the better TE. Neither offense was known for having high quality playcalling.

Probably Bennie's best position would be RG. The right side of the line places a little more emphasis on run blocking, and it's not like he'd be at tackle to deal with guys rushing off the edge.

Apparently, I've managed to come up with one of the more controversial sigs. All I'm saying with Evans is that until he proves himself as the go-to guy, you can't say it was a success to take him 13th overall. You're looking for more than just a good #2 when you take a guy 13th overall.

If I thought Ngata was going to be better than Pat Williams, I'd be singing a different tune. Getting back to Cutler, it occurred to me that maybe his being surrounded with inferior talent is a good thing. Take Rob Johnson. In college and in Jacksonville, he received outstanding play from his left tackle. He wasn't known for being a sack waiting to happen until he came to Buffalo. That weakness was there all along, but it wasn't exposed until he had the misfortune of playing behind the Bills' line. Because Cutler's team wasn't as talented as most of its opponents, it's not like his teammates were in a position to cover up whatever weaknesses he might have.

A lot would depend on which QB it was that fell. Leinart has the highest probability of making a successful transition to the NFL, while Young's is the weakest. If it's Leinart, I think you have to take him. If it's Young, I think you need to go in another direction. But the real question is what the Bills should do if Cutler falls to #8, and if Ferguson, Williams, Hawk, and Davis are all off the boards, and if a reasonable trade-down doesn't present itself. I just don't know enough about Cutler to have a strong opinion about this.

I'm also excited about what Fairchild brings to the offensive coordinator position. I liked what I saw of his coaching the few times I watched the Rams play. I think you're baiting me a little with that Losman reference. Well, I'll play nice: if Losman proves to be as accurate, as quick at making decisions, and as good at reading the field as his competition, his mobility will put him over the top. But getting back to the rest of your post: I agree Ralph has sometimes hindered this team. A few weeks back, we missed out on Jim Bates as our defensive coordinator because Ralph wouldn't pay him. He has been pretty good about paying for players though.

I completely agree with this post. I'd love to see the Bills take at least two offensive linemen in the first day of the draft. I wouldn't exactly complain if they took three!

In this year's draft, the Bills might have to choose between, say, Vernon Davis and Ngata. Davis could be an Antonio Gates-caliber TE, while Ngata might play at the level of Phil Hansen. Or if it's Hawk that falls to the Bills, they might have to choose between an Urlacher quality LB or a Ruben Brown-level OL in Justice. Don't get me wrong: I can't guarantee that Justice will be neither better nor worse than Ruben Brown, nor that Hawk will be the next Urlacher. But if the best guess of the Bills' scouting department is that Hawk and Davis will be significantly better football players than Justice or Ngata, the Bills should act accordingly.

Actually, the importance of winning in the trenches is possibly the most common theme on this board, and rightly so. But while Super Bowl teams win in the trenches, they also have top players elsewhere. Say you had a choice between drafting the next Jim Kelly, or the next Phil Hansen. Could you honestly say you'd be better off taking Phil? Or what if it came down to a choice between the next Jerry Rice, or the next Ruben Brown? Would you rather have Antonio Gates or John Fina? My point is that finding greatness--especially in the first round--is a higher priority than taking a guy just because he fills a need.

A few weeks back, I'd noticed an element of pessimism creeping into your posts. I hope this recent turn towards optimism proves justified.

The thing that stood out for me in the article was this: Second string TE behind Robert Royal! What happened to TD's draft picks at the position? Where are Euhus and Everett?

What's with the messed-up quoting attempts in this thread? But maybe this thread's theme should be stuff that's messed up. Stuff like taking Ngata or Bunkley in the 1st.

You have absolutely no idea how happy this would make me.

So the Panthers used their third round pick last year on a guard, while TD used his on a speedy TE. The Panthers are so pleased with what they've seen from their pick that they're willing to part ways with a decent veteran starter. Interesting. Edit: I've also noticed that the speedy TE TD drafted has slipped to 3rd or 4th on the depth chart. While Carolina fans are enjoying improved play at OG, Bills fans will have to make do with the sight of Everett on the bench.

Ricky's been suspended from his job for a year. If they make him pay back that bonus, he'll have exhausted his means of support. So that's two out of three.

Interesting reading. I'd say some of the numbers are inflated. Take the fact there were 28 TD draft choices on the team at the end of the 2005 season. That may seem like success, until you consider the fact he got rid of all the Butler players not named Moulds. Because TD turned the Bills into an expansion team, it was easier for his picks to make the roster. Also, I only counted eight starters TD drafted, not the nine they said. (Schobel, Edwards, Kelsay, McGee, Clements, Losman, McGahee, Evans.) Of those eight, only five are proven starters.

You're right.

It's nice to know Nall can make the most of a play when his offensive line is being dominated . . . not that that will be an issue on the Bills team. I'm not 100% sold on Nall just yet, but the descriptions I've read from you and from Green Bay fans have been encouraging. I look forward to seeing how he handles himself in preseason. Wouldn't it be something if he turned out to be the next Favre backup to find success elsewhere?