BuffaloRebound
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Wouldn't picking Baltimore up in the middle of the night and moving them be a little dumber (and way more scumbaggy)? At least from the viewpoint of the fans?
Also, had the Bills not sh*t the bed after our sweet start and actually had something to play for, perhaps the atmosphere at the game would have been different. Plus the super-high ticket prices in the midst of the awful economy didn't help put the Bills faithful in the seats either.
That said it was depressing as hell watching that game - the amount of Fin fans, the lack of noise, the sterile atmosphere, the fact that it wasn't freaking cold and windy (though, I can only imagine how JP would have looked in actual *weather conditions*) and, oh yeah, the fact that we absolutely sucked made it a surreal experience.
But we're locked in for the next few years, so where do we go from here?
I bet Rogers shareholders would be pretty happy to tear up the rest of the deal. There was never anything in it for them. This is and will be a huge money pit to them. The only thing it did was grease the tracks for Ted Rogers to buy an NFL team and bring it to Toronto. Now he's gone and they're left paying $10m per game including pre-season games to Ralph to see a low budget version of an NFL team.
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This thread has articulated some very reasonable arguments on both sides, i.e. that Toronto is necessary long-term to keep the team profitable in Buffalo versus Ralph Wilson is doing this just to make himself more money.
Is there anyone out there with business or financial experience who can quantify for us the amount of profit the Bills would need to make to be kept in Buffalo with high probability ( > 80% ? ) after Ralph passes? This would have to be compared with relocation costs, stadium expenses, new tax structure, long-term economic viability, etc. in places like Toronto and LA.
Once we have a ballpark number we can look at the amount of profit Ralph Wilson generates without the Toronto deal. If it's greater than the amount needed to keep the team in place, then Ralph should spend money on players and coaches up to that limit to make the team more competitive. Otherwise, he could be fairly criticized as being a crass capitalist acting only enhance his family's personal wealth. But without having access to some hard numbers, this seems like a tough question to resolve just by throwing arguments back and forth.
Too many unknowns to put together for that kind of analysis to be worth anything. A stadium adds close to $1billion to the cost of the Bills. In this economic environment, no one is getting any govt money to re-locate a football team. $1billion even at 5% is an extra $65m a year in expenses over 30 years. At 8%, its close to $90m per year. I guess someone would have move somewhere where they could make more than $65-90m per year than in Buffalo. The Bills had $206m in revenues last year according to Forbes. New England, Washington, and Dallas, and now the 2 New Yorks look like the only teams that could make more than $65m per year more than the Bills. Philly, who has a relatively new stadium, only made $30m more than the Bills in revenues. In this economy, I think it is a hard sell realistically finding a city that could make more than $65m more than the Bills. But all it takes is one crazy rich guy to think he can do it in LA or somewhere else.
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How can anyone claim that the Toronto thing was anything other than a money grab without knowing how much money Ralph makes? It would be a different situation if Ralph ever made it known that he would like to keep the Bills in Buffalo after he's gone and potential buyers need him to access to Toronto to make that happen. I would accept the Toronto situation more if a new owner who paid $800m for the the franchise did it, not from a guy who paid $50,000 for it.
Wilson gets a check from the NFL that basically pays for the salary cap limit and spends significantly less than that on players. He doesn't spend on coaches or front office. He essentially pays nothing to play at the stadium built by taxpayers and named after him. Without access to the numbers, it is probably safe to assume any money he gets from tickets, parking, concessions, and luxury boxes is pure profit, estimated at $5-6m per home game. Toronto simply increases that number.
I think the problem for Ralph is he's been an owner for 50 years and is bitter that a new batch of owners like Jones and Snyder make more profits than him. So he uses the the poor Buffalo economy to extract more revenue sharing from the NFL and scheme up the Toronto thing. This is not about viability in Buffalo, it is about trying to close the profit gap with Dallas, Washington, and the New Yorks. The problem is there are only a handful of those markets, and Toronto and LA are the only ones without teams. And LA isn't building someone a stadium with the mess California is in and has already seen 2 teams leave, and Toronto has political barriers.
If the Bills get put up on the market when Ralph is no longer here, I think people might be surprised to see how attractive keeping the Bills in Buffalo will be with a free stadium, a rabid fanbase, and rich NFL revenue sharing especially in this economic environment.
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Well, Ralph sure put all the "speculation" to rest, didn't he?
Not like any of us really thought Jauron was in trouble. What a !@#$ing joke. Hey, but I hear taterhill's wife cooks a mean bratwurst at their tailgates. And that's all that really matters, right?
WOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
Bingo. Ralph only thinks with his wallet. It's not like the coaches and front office aren't the ones picking the players.
I think it's BS that everyone knows how much the players and coaches are making, but Ralph's profits are kept under lock and key despite getting state and local incentives to play here. He's gotta be pocketing $40m+ with the extra Toronto revenue. Until the majority of the Bills fanbase overcome their fears of the team moving, Ralph will continue his fleecing. With this economy and Rogers kicking the can, the odds of Buffalo moving have never been lower in the last 15 years.
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Honestly, I think the Bills have much more talent.
Not where it counts. Pennington seems to be a favorite whipping boy, but in a dome or warm weather team he has adequate arm strength, and has led his team to the playoffs more than once. In a league dominated by poor QB-play, Pennington playing in Miami is arguably a top 10 QB.
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Keeping Losman this year as the 2nd stringer didn't seem like a big deal to many, but is the epitome of why this is a losing organization. Instead of getting a veteran back-up who could help Edwards in his 2nd year and step in if need be and lead the team, they keep a mal-content who has proven he doesn't have what it takes to save a few bucks because he's in the last year of his rookie contract. In defense of Losman, you can't expect a former 1st round pick who was beaten out by a rookie to suddenly accept a back-up role and be a mentor.
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A coach who will tell Ralph to keep his mouth shut and his hand ready to sign some checks. Does Bobby Knight know anything about football?
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Not true. That's where coaching comes in. Coaching is more than X's and O's. It's motivating your players to perform. I think UB is a great example of how much difference a coach can make. Turner Gill took a team of guys who were the worst team in D1 football and got them to a bowl and a title game. Now you can argue that college and the pros are completely different, but great coaches know how to get players to perform. If it's true that Bills players don't care about winning, then we have the wrong coaches on this team.
PTR
I don't believe it's as simple as saying Bills players don't care about winning. I just think mediocrity has seeped into this organization at all levels. Great organizations take pride in every detail with winning a Super Bowl always being the end goal. Meanwhile, Ralph is busy giving up a home game to make an extra $4-5m per year. Then it just feeds on itself having to over-pay free agents to come here with a sort of self-selection of players who had to be over-paid to come here. It desperately calls for a Coughlin-like coach to start kicking some a$$ and chase the losers out of town.
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I think that it is more Rogers - "the company" (don't forget, Rogers - "the flame thrower") that has an interest in bringing the Bills to Toronto.
My thinking is that their position will not change greatly because of this loss.
The NFL does not allow corporate ownership. I am not saying Toronto still couldn't put an ownership group together, but you basically need at least one billionaire as part of that group. Do Rogers' heirs have the same passion to bring the NFL to Canada effectively breaking up the CFL? Rogers passing cannot be good for Toronto's chances of landing the Bills.
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So, what implications does this have for us moving to Toronto? Was it him personally that had talked about moving a franchise to Toronto, or was it his family or trust?
It means it is one less option for Ralph to move the team. The fanbase has never had more leverage in the last 15 years to demand Ralph start spending money to put a winner on the field.
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I really don't understand all this talk about how to "fix" the Bills
It is not up to us
I never played the game beyond high school. I don't think I, or the average fan is qualified to tell anyone how to run the team. Most of you are just spewing what you hear pencil-necks like John Clayton yap about. John Clayton is half crippled. He even has a treach scar, so I would bet he was born with birth defects. No harm intended, and I am glad the guy is able to function, but how can a guy like that talk about a physical game like football and have anyone take him seriously?
Let's leave it to the pros
A demanding fanbase is part of the equation that determines the success of a team. If the majority of fans accept 7-9 or 8-8 every year, Ralph will be plenty willing to pocket $30-40m per year and oblige the fanbase with mediocrity.
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I think his arm strength is an issue in Buffalo. I like everything else about his game, but he struggles once it gets windy and cold. It doesn't help that he has no safety valve in the middle of the field and most of the Bills pass plays are to smallish WR's to the sideline.
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Until Ralph is out of the equation, we somehow need to get a coach who will challenge Ralph and the front office to go get the players necessary to win. Jauron was just happy to get another head coaching gig.
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I've been a diehard Bills fan since the beginning in 60 and never have I been as disappointed in a performance as in the one I witnessed today. In a game that was basically make or break for the season, these guys played with zero intensity, no urgency and nada emotion. And that my friends is not on the coaching, it is on the players themselves. Time after time we hear ex-players say that the emotion and intensity has to come from within, coaches can't provide it. The great Thurman Thomas stated this just last week on his radio spot and be serious, Marv was certainly no rah-rah in your face coach. This is not high school, not college, motivation is from your own pride and professionalism. The game plan was good enough (350 yds of offense), the mistakes (dropped passes, penalties, bad punts, missed assignments, poor execution) destroyed any chance of it working. The defense was adequate (gave up a measly 195 yards) and even made a huge stop when needed most, then the offense fell on their collective face. The kicking game stunk. Until this bunch assumes responsibility for their own destiny and develops some attitude and swagger, they will continue to be a talented but inconsistent team and the Buffalo fans deserve better.
Isn't it on the coaches/front office if they put players on the field who don't play with emotion, intensity and attitude?
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If this team continues to falter the rest of the season and Jauron is not fired and truly extended then the fanbase needs o show their distaste and go on strike from the team. We pay for this product so if we do not pay for games the players and team wont get paid and they would have to do something to improve this team right?
Wilson has successfully scared most of the fanbase into being happy that they just have a team. It gives him the freedom to run the team however he wants with minimal criticism.
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Good riddance! Leave the Bills name in Buffalo.
Agreed. And in this economy, Wilson's leverage to move the team has never been lower. The only viable place right now is Toronto and there would be huge political hurdles to overcome. No other city without a team has a stadium. So you're talking close to $2 billion that someone will have to come up with.
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You mean like Gregg Williams or Mike Mularkey? Good idea.
We need someone who can manage the game clock correctly. We need someone who challenges at the right times. We need someone with GOOD on-the-field game management experience. I'm tired of up-and-comers who get their experience here, get fired, then go somewhere else and be good coordinators.
I advocated for Schottenheimer around the time Gregg Williams was hired and got shot down because he didn't win in the playoffs. Marty isn't a bad choice because he has won in this league and he has ties to Buffalo and Ralph. He has to be in his 70s now, but I'll take him.
I'd take Schottenheimer in a minute, but he's not coming here. I have a better chance of becoming the Bills coach than Cowher ever coming here. With Ralph as owner, we are not getting any experienced coach who has won.
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Why would any respectable coach come here? Ralph is a loser. The only chance is to strike gold with a young up-and-comer.
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Jauron needs to go, but nothing will change as long as Wilson is the owner. Wilson is the ultimate loser.
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He's not a pass rush guy. Never has been. On the other hand, the LDE usually is more of a run-stopper and less of a pass-rusher, though it would be nice if our guys were both. But you don't cut a guy unless you can replace him with someone who's at least nearly as good. And we can't.
We will never be a serious contender until we get a pass rush. I find amazement in the Giants losing Strahan and Umenyiora and still having an excellent pass rush. There's gotta be someone on that d-line who they won't be able to re-sign or who they'll trade when Umenyiora comes back next year.
Our defensive ends have no quickness. Kelsay is alright as a 4th defensive end. 1st round pick at DE who can contribute immediately (trade up if need be) is a must and add another in free agency.
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In this economy, the number of people willing to pay $700-800m for a team plus a relocation fee plus another $1b for a new stadium has to be dwindling. A move to Toronto is probably the only legitimate chance of the Bills leaving Buffalo in this economic environment.
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It's the greatest injustice within this franchise that DJ has as much personnel control as he does. Levy's hiring almost necessitated him ceding personnel control over to the HC. While I don't have an issue with the HC having input into the draft and FA, just abdicating most of it to a guy like DJ is suicidal.
In a division which features the Patriots and their front office, a Jets team who has spent a lot and is so-far reaping rewards, along with a Miami team which hired Bill Parcells, you have to wonder how serious the Bills are about winning.
The Bills must hire a GM and put Brandon back to being the marketing/business guru. The final step of course depends on Ralph putting his ego aside, although that may happen somewhat when season ticket holders decided against renewing. I've always had the feeling RW won't change unless he starts seeing the dollars go away.
Well put. The Jets, Patriots, and Dolphins are playing for keeps. Ralph's focus is more about maximizing market value. I would love to see a comparison of what teams pay for their coaches and front office. I would be willing to bet the Bills are in the bottom 3 if not the very bottom.
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Even Tony Kornheiser noticed last night, "look how skinny these guys are." Undersized DE's have to be Kiwanuka or Freeney fast to be effective at that size. Neither are. The lack of a dependable pass rush is one of the many problems the Bills have.
Could not agree more about the DE's. It is the #1 reason we get no turnovers. You might as well put 300 pounders on the edge to stop the run. On top of that, there were at least 2 times where Kelsay and Denney completely over-ran the play and let Quinn break contain for big yardage.
It is amazing that the Giants lost a Hall of Famer in Strahan and one of the best pass rushers in the League in Umenyiora, and they still have DE's who can get to the Qb.
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The guys actually look like they play hard their are just a few spots that need to be upgraded #1 receiver- sorry but lee evans is nothing but a number 2. TE- someone who can catch underneath moreso than the RBS- A Real Center- WE need an anchor to that line- 1or 2 more CBS to aide in the secondary and a OLB and a true pass rushing DE because you can have all the talent and it doesnt mean you can coach to win. The browns have equivalent talent in QB,RB better talent at TE, WR, OL, DL yet their coach cannot get them to win on a regular basis the players can only do so much if the coach is calling the shots!
Coaching is important, but so is every man on the 53 man roster. You are only as good as your weakest link. We have zero pass rushers on the roster. All our safeties outside Whitner are suspect. Ellison is way too soft. Losman should have been cut and a viable back-up Qb should have been brought in. We have no fullback. Another veteran WR should have been brought in. Parcells, Belichik, Coughlin would cut so many guys off this roster the day they took over. One good thing Donahoe did was bring in quality veteran depth. That was probably the only good thing he did.
Chris Collinsworth Says Bills Did the Dumbest Thing in NFL History
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
It is, but deals get torn up/re-negotiated all the time when they no longer make sense for both sides. If that game actually meant something to the Bills, the outrage already being shown would be multiplied. I still am amazed that Rogers shareholders went along with this... they are most certainly going to incur a loss and there is no upside for them as the NFL doesn't allow corporate ownership.