leh-nerd skin-erd

Some Rs have already made a declaration on the work done by the 1/6 committee, which is appropriate. The footage being released is simply that—footage being released. I can’t think of any reason you would need assurances of anything beyond that.

Some things are complicated, Chi, some things are not. They didn’t raid him at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months and certainly could have waited to 9 months, 12 months etc. You say it was time to bring the hammer down. I say if the hammer needed to be brought down it should have happened almost immediately. It seems there are no real guidelines for tracking this stuff and what happens when you violate protocol, so 8 months is an arbitrary number in my opinion. I would not support the execution of a search warrant at this point in Biden’s case, though it seems fairly clear to me the explanation given so far makes virtually no sense whatsoever. That is to say, I believe, but could be wrong, that he’s lying about how this all played out. I understand you see things differently, but I’ve explained my perspective multiple times. I think @sherpa ‘s comments above reflect pretty accurately the way I used to view these things. I wish, sincerely, that I could get past cynicism and the thought that to win the day, sketchy behavior and manipulation of voters is a job requirement. That’s the game and how it’s played. Btw, you keep mentioning Trump when the wrongdoer here is Biden. You probably lost track of that. 🤫

But you didn’t steal something from me. Well, my time maybe with silly ‘what if you stole donuts from my kitchen’ questions, but I can forgive you for that. I can see you’re struggling to back me into a corner that doesn’t exist.

I would hope Obama would say “Jesus Christ Joe, you’re a 🤬 moron. You let 🤬unauthorized people have access to top 🤬secret files, lose track of them for 7 🤬years and filed them with the membership paperwork from Planet Fitness? What a 🤬 moron.”. But you probably know him better than me.

Turns out that was part of the McCarthy deal, releasing the footage to provide a clearer picture than that filtered through the lens of the 1/6 committee. I have to believe that everyone on this thread believes this is long overdue and necessary for transparency. @ChiGoose @redtail hawk etc

I appreciate the response, Tibs. Look at you. The two situations are different, on this we agree. Trump’s case involves classified information maintained at his home, wherein the DOJ (or whatever body addresses classified material) was working with him to get the material back. Trump’s shared that he thought the documents were his, that he declassified as President, and there is a disagreement with DOJ. The DOJ knew where the documents were, who had access and ultimately got them back. Biden’s case involves materials that disappeared under the veil of secrecy, and according to him, were taken by people working on his behalf who likely lacked the clearance to view the material. Additionally, it seems logical that as these documents moved about in his “personal” box, it wasn’t his $1000 an hour attorney humping the material around. It’s also exceedingly unlikely that Biden, who claims to have nothing to do with it, moved them himself. Finally, these items were not “simply given back”, they disappeared between 2013-2023 either due to complete incompetence or cunning and guile. Questions exist in both cases and we know the angle being pursued against Trump. With Biden, I’d be happy with questions under oath for he and his extended circle, and a complete forensic review to see who knew what and when. That seems the most reasonable solution. You’ve got your cultist mixed up, Slim.

While you were home pitching a fit about the clothes your mom picked out for you, the rest of the class discussed this issue in some detail. As for personal responsibility, I’ve not defended Trump once in this scenario. While you’re sharing tweets of how Team Biden “immediately” turned over records in his possession for 5-7 years, illegally it would seem, I place the blame where it goes—that’s a Donald Trump issue. How it was handled thereafter is fair game. Interestingly, Joe Biden has begun his Washington two step. Turns out he had no idea he had top secret files in his possession. That’s alarming. Turns out his lawyers put the files in his desk, just grabbed a bunch of documents and put them right with the electric bill, but Joe never looked at them. That’s more alarming still. Turns out it’s just like those ladies he groped who just didn’t understand him and his touchy feely ways. It also turns out supporters of Joe don’t really care about national security after all. Turns out they couldn’t stitch together what seemed pretty obvious to anyone with a sense of smell—most ordinary Americans give more thought to keeping their delicious Oreo cookies safe than our high ranking officials do for classified/top secret data. We’re up to Clinton, Trump, Biden and we haven’t even started looking. Elige sapientiam, friend.

No, that’s not necessary when we can focus on the facts as they happened. Assuming Garland was negotiating for return over items in Trump’s possession for 6 or 8 months, there’s no reason to believe additional administrative/court action could not be undertaken. It also implies to me that rumors of Trump betraying the country are quite unlikely to be true. Once Garland pulled the trigger on the raid, I’d think the process would take place with the utmost professionalism to avoid the obvious political ramifications that come with the AG appointed by one party sending investigators to another. I don’t believe that happened. I am uncomfortable painting the individuals carrying out the search (people do have responsibility and orders to follow), but when you control the premises for multiple hours, have specific data you are looking for, I would think great care would be taken to limit your search to that which you are there to take however long it takes. Instead, we end up with leaks, inferences, photo shoots and the like and the DOJ rejecting the judges rather benign assignment of an independent party to render an opinion on items that apparently should not have been taken. Again, I get they can do all that. I just don’t know that they should have. Anyway, this about Biden, and thankfully some folks not beholden to team Biden are going to look into it: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-comments-documents-classified-north-american-leaders-summit/?intcid=CNI-00-10aaa3b He seems to be blaming his attorneys for grabbing the documents. Interesting spin.

Reading the files in Biden’s office, obviously. Turns out Hunter is an accomplished flautist. It humanizes him, you know?

I feel like I’m talking to crazy people. Joe Biden knew they existed, he took them! He took top secret files that clearly were not mixed in with his health savings account records, receipts for Meals and Entertainment, and Verizon Fiona bills while at the White House. They’re top secret files for goodness sake! He didn’t write them, it’s not his work product, and sometime between 2013-2016 ::::poof::::, they went from the WH to his personal filing cabinet. You’re argument seems to be if a thief steals something, forgets he has it, gets nervous a decade later and reports it, that he’s somehow a paragon of virtue. Let’s just acknowledge a serious investigation by people not beholden to him should take place. If it’s all upon the up and up and it was run of the mill law breaking, so be it.

Integrity would actually be not breaking the law to begin with, waiting 7 years to report it, and deep sixxing any comments about this major security breach until 60 days after the files were discovered, and counting.

This deep state stuff makes you sound a little bit off your rocker, Chi. If you can’t have a reasonable conversation about actions undertaken by the DOJ you’re wasting your time. While Trump is most certainly a victim of political persecution—AG Barr and common sense tell us as much, it’s important to differentiate between events that clearly were malicious and problems that are potentially self-inflicted. Perhaps a separate post could be dedicated to his state of mind and psychological trauma as a result of the persecution and how it may have impacted him here, but let’s put that aside. I have previously stated he created the problem with classified material, that’s obvious to me. Clearly he’s not a victim in that regard. I think your argument that Merrick Garland had no middle ground between resolving differences with Trump and and the swat team approach and what followed is both silly and preposterous. There’s always middle ground, but Garland chose the aggressive route to send the message he wanted to send. He had the legal right to pursue as such, so it is what it is. I should add this here—if Trump was selling or giving away intelligence, I’ll happily retroactively applaud AG Garland for his actions. Likewise, Biden is no victim. The matter needs to be addressed, and given that the issues run the gamut from his time in the WH to time as private citizen, to his now quite hilarious declaration about playing fast and loses with top secret material, the most logical resolution is an independent party looking over what he knew, when he knew it, and why he was holding onto top secret material over a 6 or 7 year period. I see a number of politicians expressing grave concerns over Biden’s actions, that concerns me. You should want this too, Chi, and I am surprised to see you defend the indefensible even though it’s your guy with his hand in the cookie jar.

You have more faith in them than I do. I absolutely think they will push forward with any charge they possibly can, and not think twice about any potential issue with Biden. They pitched the idea that 74 year old Donald Trump—one of the most recognizable people in the world—-was an agent of the Kremlin, and people bought it. Now, I think they don’t charge him if he’s got intel that paints the US govt/dem leadership in a bad light, which he likely does. That’s a trade off they could live with.

The Donald’s home was raided by an armed task force, kept under control of the govt for 10 hours, they seized items outside the scope of the investigation, fought judicial efforts to have an independent third party go through the material and remove items not relevant to the probe, prevailed on appeal, maintain possession of items they have no right to hold, and cited national security as the primary reason they should be allowed to self-report. Meanwhile, confidential attorney-client correspondence is said to be in play, though the DOJ pinky swears they won’t look at anything again that they may probably should not look at. All of the foregoing is completely legal, of course, and if you prefer, brought on by The Donald getting porky over what he should or shouldn’t have. The flip side of the argument you’re making is a career politician scoops up top secret documents apparently over a 3 year time frame, in violation of the law, whereabouts unknown from 2013-mid2017, apparently files them between his Hair Club for men treatment plan, the Macy’s credit card bill and Jill’s student loan documents, and apparently cannot account for who may/may mit have had access. Then, they’re found prior to the election, they fall off the radar for a couple months and stage argument is what brave and honest soldiers they are because they immediately told someone they had documents for 6 years. Trump made his bed, and exposed his throat to his political enemies. You support whatever comes next, I assume. This isn’t about Trump. Biden, too, made his bed, and exposed his throat to his political enemies. He’s sloppy, as is consistent with his political career. An independent review of his actions, especially illegal activity while a private citizen can only be undertaken by an independent special counsel. This is a great opportunity to rebuild some trust in our system, but I sincerely doubt that’s the game plan. Like the 1/6 committee showed, side deals and protecting an ally is the order of the day.

Actually, what you just exhibited is a lack of leadership acumen. If you lead correctly you would have gotten your schmear, especially if the subject was easy to lead as you have suggested.

@ChiGoose says anything less than 11 years is considered 'immediately' notifying the federal government if a democrat.

Holy cr*p--the story gets worse. The documents apparently date from 2013-2016, deal with American interests in Iran, the UK and, get this ---Ukraine--and were first moved to the office in mid-2017 before being discovered last year. One must wonder where they were from 2016-2022, and in fact wonder where they were during Biden's time in office? They were found intermingled with personal papers and matters dealing with his son's death in 2015, and for quite a stretch of time when he was a private citizen and shielded somewhat from government oversight. So, document dealing with top secret issues are left unattended for 6-9 years, exist without rhyme, reason and organization, and it certainly appears Biden considered them his own personal property. Oh, and that little part about informing the American people about the documents two months after an important election...he sure gets some lucky breaks in that regard, huh?

Wow. I appreciate your honesty--not one left-leaning person has provided this sort of detail in reply to questions about the dem narrative of stolen elections. Virtually every one has ignored the question, I think because it forces them to be introspective on allegations of stolen elections while pretending to be outraged about allegations of stolen elections. Before people try to fool others, they have to fool themselves. Where you stand seems to be you're perfectly comfortable with manipulation of the voting public, outrageous and ridiculous allegations of treasonous behavior and subverting the will of the American people as long as it's the will of the other guy being subverted as long as certain conditions are met. That's pretty &^%$ed up. 2020 doesn't happen without 2016-2020, mostly because 2016 worked like a charm.

They spread disinformation and manipulated the American people, Red. This isn't conjecture, this is fact. They spoke of treason and stolen elections and that was complete boldfaced lie. They said they had evidence and never revealed it. That was a lie. They pitted citizen against citizen, they used the mechanisms designed to protect citizens to steam roll those who strayed from the one true god--establishment politics. They did it quite artfully, tossing their supporters the occasional tax cheat, propping up Avenatti and Stormy, and when one alleged scandal died they counted on foolish people believing the next one. When Russian collusion and Trump The Treasonous failed, they convinced you that it was never really about collusion--that's not really a thing, they said--it was about obstruction.....obstructing an investigation based on lies, manipulation and half-truths. I still don't know why people aren't furious at being duped, but I think people lose their damn minds when the target isn't likable. For all the hand-wringing about Trump not leaving the WH, he left the WH when it was his time, and Joe Biden and his supporters had their COVID-spreading celebration. The Russians seemed to have accurately assessed both the democrat party and its supporters. They wanted chaos, and damn if you folks didn't give it to them.

Which would make sense had there been any true civility left in American politics prior to Trump winning. Deplorable, Irredeemable, etc. Trump was no angel on the field of battle, but bare knuckles politics has been a thing for an awfully long time. You’re pimping a narrative the facts don’t support and speaking only for myself, I would probably be a bit more a sensitive to stolen election claims if it hadn’t worked so well for the democrats in 2016-2020. Why didn’t you care then?

I’ll let you hash out the social media, bigotry and hate angle. I’ve seen a sh$t-ton of hatred, condescension and vile behavior from certain elements of the democrat base, including accusations of cults, nazism etc. I think that’s a symptom of a larger problem, and if a dopey tweet from somebody convinces someone of anything, they were already gone to begin with. They also would have supported Trump because they knew the tendencies of the modern Democrat party. They had telegraphed the stolen election narrative with Bush/Gore, they knew the Dems would stop at nothing to take out the candidate (regardless of who it was) based on “Bush lied, People Died (and later became a kindly old grandpa we all can love)”. We can agree to disagree on Ukraine (and Crimea previously), but the facts seem fairly clear on when the Russians opted to launch their offensive. That they may have miscalculated doesn’t change that dynamic.

I’ll take a stab at that and go with the assumption that the goal was to get Trump elected. I think the Russian government knows the American people better than the American people know themselves. They know our amazing ability to rally on behalf of a cause or after a catastrophic event. They also know our tendency to huddle in political tribes and almost uncanny ability to hunker down and stick to “our guy” in spite of obvious, almost insurmountable evidence that “our guy” has major flaws as a person or candidate and fight the good fight until the very end. Donald Trump was a political outsider, a non-establishment candidate who captured the attention of voters tired of Bush, Clinton, McConnell, Pelosi and the like. At the same time, he represented that which any enemy of any country would want for their foe: Chaos. A Trump nomination and presidency was a thumb in the eye of the R party, and a rejecting of the heir apparent to the D party. Trump’s absolute commitment to chaos as a business model was a factor as well. Surely the Russians would know Trump would be under attack on all fronts, and he surely was. The Dems said the election was stolen and illegitimate. People bought that narrative. Chaos. The FBI launched a direct attack from day one, putting a previously well respected military veteran on blast and faced with falling on his sword or watching his son destroyed. Chaos. They surely knew that information beneficial to the Trump cause would be suppressed—witness the period of time between allegations of hookers and urine, when Obama and Biden were made aware of the Clinton campaign involvement and foreign agent Christopher Steel and when the public as a whole got that memo. Chaos. Special Counsel assigned to probe connections between Trump and Russia…Chaos. Mueller fails to establish a connection and taps out in spite of heavy handed tactics, offers for deals, attempts to get people to flip. No one on the dem side cares. Chaos. In the end, the Russians got exactly what they wanted—a country divided, anger and animosity. That lead to the vote for elect Biden—a career simpleton bounced from prior races because he’s an a$&—and a guy the Russians knew very, very well. At that point, it was only a matter of time before the onslaught of Ukraine began.

It's pretty obvious that in order to become President, a candidate needs a significant percentage of the population to be completely and unabashedly hypocritical when it comes to how they view the actions of their candidate as opposed to the opposition. We're seeing those people post here over the last 24 hours.

The facts always matter one way or the other, but we have no idea what they are at this point. There’s the legal implications of Biden’s actions. What we have right now is a self-serving version of the story, which rightly should be viewed with cynicism until actual facts are established through an independent investigation. Sadly, we’re unlikely to get that in today’s world. Perhaps sadder still, people arguing about the need for the Trump raid and subsequent handling by DOJ are applauding Biden for turning over documents 6 years after he took them. There are the political implications. Biden was quite clear in his feelings about Trump’s reckless behavior and the threat to national security it posed. This, of course, after an armed raid and the apparent seizure of documents purported to be outside the scope of the raid. Now, we find out that at a minimum, Biden himself engaged in irresponsible and dangerous behavior exposing national secrets. There are the potential family implications to be considered. Biden has made no secret of his love and unquestioned loyalty to his son, and as yet questions about Hunter’s influence peddling remain unanswered. At the same time, the guy was dealing with a crack and hooker problem, and one must wonder whether he had any access to these documents or Joe Biden might have been squeezed to protect him. Finally, there’s the issue of public trust in our institutions problem. In the past few years, you’ve had Hillary Clinton playing fast and loose with top secret information and Obama, Comey et al calling her extremely reckless. You’ve got Trump removing confidential information and a swat style raid to recover, and Biden speaking of his major concerns about the national security risk that posed. Now, we find Biden has a trove of documents lifted from his time in the White House, accessible by God-knows-how-many-people, reported upon “immediately!” 6 or 7 years after they went missing. We agree a full accounting of this matter is necessary. The question is will we get one? Which they didn’t, from at least 2015-late 2022.

We don’t know that facts. We don’t know who had access, who might have reviewed the files, who Biden might have shared the contents with, what safeguards were in place, the security clearances of those with access, whether or not they might have been compromised, and what the portrait of the multi-year journey might look like when painted. In fact, it’s pure foolishness to speculate that the relative security of Biden’s situation somehow was greater than the Trump scenario. There was apparently no oversight whatsoever for almost 7 years. It will be interesting to see where this goes but the potential for whitewashing this debacle and burying the story is quite high.