CincyBillsFan
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Fun game to watch and agree with those saying that young QB's with a gunslinger mentality like Mahomes should be forcing the ball which results in interceptions. A couple of observations:
* I liked how Mahomes tried to keep the guy out of the end zone after the fluke INT. Most QB's would have just stood there and watched the defender run it in but Mahomes put some real effort into keeping him out. It was probably foolish for him to do what he did but I liked the effort.
* While the game was fun to watch it wasn't IMO an "instant classic". Way to many penalties and some of those flags seemed to be for nothing. I also noticed how late in the game the refs went into a hockey mindset and wouldn't call obvious holds by both teams for fear of impacting the outcome. I still say one of the biggest problems facing the NFL is to many penalties and even worse the calls are often very inconsistent because so many of the rules are subjective.
* I haven't read this thread from the beginning so excuse me if this has already been talked about but did others catch the announcers describing the #1 factor in Goff going from a "bust" his rookie year to being an elite QB today? They were pretty clear that coaching made all the difference. Does this apply to the current Bills situation? I mean any staff that thought Peterman was a starting NFL QB can't exactly be called QB savvy.
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I see this game looking a lot like the Tennessee game - low scoring and the Bills pull it out at the end.
And for the record, Allen will be continuing his streak of playing against the toughest defenses in the NFL. My sense is he'll have a mediocre game against Jacksonville but the defense will carry us. After the Jags though things get a lot easier for the rookie QB as he'll finally NOT be playing top ranked defenses. To put things in perspective Allen has gone against:
Baltimore - about 2 quarters on the road
LA Chargers - full game
Vikings - full game on the road
Packers - full game on the road
Titans - full game
Texans - 3 quarters on the road.
Those are some very tough defenses Allen has faced and now he has to face another tough one in the Jags. This is why the last 5 games of the season are interesting - there will be a big drop in the caliber of defenses he has faced and we might actually start to see some real progress with Allen.
This is why Allen plays the last 6 games.
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Beebe was a very underrated receiver. He was like the offenses version of the defenses Phil Hansen.
I still remember his 4 TD receiving day against Pittsburgh and of course it was his 40 yard TD catch that started the Bills on their epic comeback against Houston.
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9 hours ago, Ayjent said:
Josh Allen had a good game against Minnesota, but the first quarter was full of opportunities for the team - two of their drives resulting in scores were after take aways on a short field, and the other was helped by two personal fouls. They had two decent long drives (50+ yds) the whole game, and the rest were just cashing in on good D and turnovers. Not knocking his play, he made the most of the opportunities and it is by far his best game, but 15 completions and less than 200 yds wasn't nearly as good as leading the Offense having 5 drives of 50+ yards resulting in TDs with a good deal of chunk plays (47 yd to Foster, 33yds to Jones, 22 yds to Holmes, 43 yds to Foster).
Barkley looked more consistent than Allen in those respective games and had better command of the Offense. The Bills moved the ball very well all game because they had complimentary passing and running. Granted Allen played a better D - but as far as overall QB play - I think you can objectively say Barkley played better than Allen because he was more consistent and helped sustain longer drives and more of them. I'm not saying start Barkley if Allen is healthy, but its something to keep in mind with Allen's play which hasn't really been very good with any consistency. A couple of flashes here and there, but really not much to get excited about outside of the first half of the Viking game. Allen looks better than I thought he would passing, but the Offense looks pretty meh with him at QB most of the time, and he wasn't playing that well before he got injured. Maybe it will come together, but he's got to get a lot better at a lot of things. He kinda reminds me of Ryan Tannehill
I disagree. Allen opened the game leading the Bills on a 9 play 75 yard drive to put Buffalo up 7 - 0 and set the tone for the day. Later in the half Allen led the Bills on an 11 play 65 yard TD drive.
And we can argue all day about subjective stuff like which QB had more breaks in their game though I doubt the Vikings drop those two INT's that Barkley almost threw. But one thing I do know for sure is that Minnesota has a better defense then the NY Jets and is a playoff contender. I also suspect that the Jets laid down Sunday.
As far as "consistency" goes I'm not sure how you can claim Barkley is more consistent than Allen based on ONE game? Keep in mind that Allen quarterbacked the Bills through the toughest schedule in the NFL. It's hard for a rookie QB to be consistent surrounded by mediocre (at best) offensive talent while playing the hardest schedule in the league.
At this point given the high level of competition he has faced; the lack of offensive tools at his disposal and the fact that he's a raw rookie, I don't see how Allen can remind someone of anyone currently in the NFL. We just haven't seen enough of his work to know much of anything. That's why he needs to play the rest of this year and all of next year before we can decide who he is.
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A couple of opinions on common themes in these Barkley/Allen threads:
* Barkley has earned another start. WTH is this? So now the criteria for earning a starting job by a back-up QB is to play a solid game. Isn't this why they brought Barkley in.
* Go with Barkley, who has the "hot hand". Who cares if Barkley has the hot hand or not. Does Fitz having had a hot hand alter the fact that Tampa Bay will be desperately looking for a QB in the off season?
* The ultimate upside with Barkley as the Bills QB is 8 - 8. Look familiar? So folks want to put off developing a franchise QB (or finding out that he isn't the guy) because we might win a couple more games with Barkley? For the last 20 years the Bills have occupied football's equivalent of PURGATORY (though I would call it hell) where they hang around 500 and everyone points to next year as the year - over & over & over & over & over & over &.......Again. Count me out.
* What if Allen looks bad? Then we learn something. And if Allen stinks up the show against Jacksonville he still starts the next week and the week after that. That we're even having this debate in Billsland is amazing to me. Allen may or may not be the guy to lead us out of the football wilderness we've occupied the last 20 years but he offers us at least a chance to break our cycle of extreme mediocrity. Barkley as a starter is a GUARANTEE that we continue to try to push the boulder up the hill.
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3 hours ago, Ayjent said:
Between Allen, Peterman and Anderson - yeah Allen was head and shoulders above the other two. But you can't deny that Barkley had the best QB performance by a Bill this season and it's not even close. I'm fine with them starting either Barkley or Allen. I think Allen's pocket presence is still problematic. He holds the ball too long and hasn't shown any consistency in moving in the pocket to make time for himself. I don't know if that is something that will improve with presnap recognition, I'm hopeful that it does. Everything else seems to be there, but that ability to make good quick decisions is what separates the superstars from the busters.
I disagree. Allen's overall performance against Minnesota was better IMO. While the passing stats between the two were similar Allen contributed a lot more as a runner. On top of that the Vikings were a much better team then the Jets. I just don't get how folks declare the Barkley effort Sunday, which was good, to be better then Allen's against Minny.
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2 hours ago, Like A Mofo said:
Bills will finish 3-3, final record 6-10. Josh Allen shows some progress, and OL shows improvement and arrow is pointing way up for the 2019 offseason
This is the most realistic optimistic take IMO. Though we still have 12 days to dream.................
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I would immediately ask the Bills if they were interested in buying out my contract so they could hire someone who knew what the hell they were doing. I would take pennies on the dollar as it would be found money to me!
If that didn't work I would ask Bills ownership if I could run the team from my lounge chair while drinking a Molsen Golden. Then I would turn it over to the coaches & players and let them sort things out.
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I think the answer to the threads question is a resounding NO. The Jet's looked to much like a team playing in their 4th pre-season game for us to read to much into the result.
It is fair to say that the offense showed improvement Sunday and that's a good thing. But I have a nagging concern that we saw a Jet's defense tanking after the loss of their rookie QB. Am I the only one that thought the Jet's D looked a little like ours did against Indy? Let's face it the Indy game was the Buffalo defenses worst game IMO and at times they didn't seem to be trying very hard.
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The Bills had their miracle playoff run last year.
First & foremost I want to see the young players improve, especially Allen. Winning would just be icing on the cake.
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I'm glad McDermott made it clear that Allen was starting if healthy - we don't need to be playing head games with our young QB . I know some folks think this gives McDermoot an out if he wants to go with Barkley but I don't buy that. There is a possibility that Allen regresses on his injury and if he does he shouldn't play. But if he's healthy he will play and McDermott confirmed that today.
Letting Peterman go was also the right move and indicates that they're confident Allen will be able to go.
As far as Barkley goes, it's important that we may have found a competent back-up. We have to many other needs on offense to be wasting time on securing a back-up QB. But let's be honest here, Barkley's maximum upside is Kyle Orton and that translates to a whole bunch of 7-9 & 8-8 seasons. We've had 20 of these with ONLY ONE playoff appearance to show for it. Allen was an attempt by the organization to break this cycle. It was a risky pick but they did it for Allen's upside. Whether that upside is anywhere near what we think it is can ONLY be determined on the field.
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12 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:
But because we are the Bills, you guys know what is going to happen right? Allen will play like ? ? ? and everyone will be calling for Barkley again and now you have a quarterback controversy.
You've identified the downside of starting Allen in 2 weeks. In fact I would argue that your point might be the likeliest outcome of starting Allen against Jacksonville. That's why it's incumbent on McDermott to make it crystal clear that as long as he stays healthy Allen is playing the final 6 games. A single game, good or bad, won't impact this.
We fans will scream and the moron sports writers will pontificate but in the end there's only a QB controversy if McDermott and the Bills screw this up. IMO they screw this up by playing head games with Allen over who starts in 2 weeks. Now if the Bills were 5 - 5 and Barkley had a track record of success along the lines of Fitz, I would also be saying sit the rookie and go with the hot hand. But none of these things apply here.
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6 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:
Goff and Trubisky would disagree
This board is absolutely nuts. 95 % of you ran TT out of town wanting a new shiny first round QB. Now you want to stick with a popgun has-been on his 6th team as the QB of the future? For God's sake. It was the Jets. And the Jets dropped two interceptions.
Allen is the future. He plays when he is healthy. He is the best QB on the team.
I agree and it's interesting reading the Western NY sports media this morning and seeing a couple of them claim that Barkley's performance yesterday was BY FAR the best by a Bills QB. Huh? Barkley was 15 - 25 for 232 yards & 2 TD's with a QB rating of 117.4. Meanwhile against Minnesota Allen was 15 - 22 - 196 - 1 TD with a QB rating of 111.2. Seems about the same to me. But when you add in Allen's 2 rushing TD's AND the FACT that the Vikings are a much better team then the Jets and it takes a special kind of sports writer to claim Barkley has had the best QB outing to date for Buffalo this year.
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2 hours ago, davefan66 said:
Good question.
Allen has played well at times, enough that I’d let him play once he is fully healthy. He can learn watching, but nothing beats learning while on the field. I believe the kid is mentally tough enough that he won’t be negatively impacted by poor outcomes. As long as he isn’t seriously injured, which can happen at any time....for example, like walking onto a training camp practice field.
You make a good point here. Allen is mentally tough enough to handle a poor performance on the field. I even think he could handle being booed by the home fans as a consequence of such a performance. What concerns me is can he handle being jerked around when it comes to starting?
A lot of folks have suggested that the Bills should keep starting Barkley until he screws up then put Allen in. The idea is that McDermott can tell the media and fans that Allen isn't 100% healthy yet. But what if Allen is 100% healthy and raring to go what then? Does he play along with the coach and tell folks he's still not healthy? I highly doubt it. So what happens when the media asks Allen about his health. IMO they need to keep this simple if Allen is almost 100% start him.
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2 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:
Put me on record stating that starting Allen next week is a colossal mistake. Especially if he stinks it up.
Trial by fire isn't the best thing for such a raw talent like Allen, IMO. He has a lot to work on and now has 2 vet QBs to guide him.
What's the rush?
It's 2 weeks which gives the Bills a chance to come up with an imaginative offensive game plan and fully integrate Allen into it. One of the pleasant surprises for me today was how clever the Bills were on offense.
And yes in a perfect world Allen would sit and learn and everyone would have the patience to let this raw talent develop. But this is far from a perfect world. I mean it seems like at least one quarter of the Bills fan base is ready to declare Allen a bust. Whether we like it or not the clock is ticking and I think that at this point he learns more on the field then on the sideline.
There's also the fact that Allen has gotten a taste of playing. Sure it was more bad then good but when you hear the guy talk he is chomping at the bit to get back out there. I think that the risk of McDermott not playing him at this point outweighs the risk of playing him. Again Allen was thrown to the wolves and he sort of survived it. Now is not the time to get queasy about him getting back into the fray.
But you make a good point. Allen is a rookie and if he gets put back in as the starter he's going to have a couple of bad games in the last 6. And his first game back could be stinker with the home crowd booing him. But because of the mistakes made by the Bills with respect to QB in the off season that's the situation we're stuck with. Maybe the way to look at it that there are two poor options here but one of them is worse then the other.
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3 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:
No matter what, Peterman should be gone tomorrow morning. Trade him for a bag of ice or something of equal value.
This is probably something most of us can agree on. At this point the guy is a distraction. It's bad enough that he stole the majority of first team reps over the summer.
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17 minutes ago, Bills2ref said:
? let’s not pretend Allen was good. He averaged 150 yards per game started and has 2 TDS vs 5 INTS. Even counting his rushing TD’s he has 5 with 5 INTS. I want to see Allen succeed as much as the next guy, but he absolutely doesn’t give the Bills the best chance to win right now and can definitely learn from sitting behind an actual competent QB.
I agree that overall Allen didn't play well but he had a gem of a game against Minnesota and led a 4th quarter rally against Tennessee - both teams which are likely to be in the playoffs. In fact Allen faced by far the toughest competition of the Bills QB's this season. I believe every defense he faced is in the top half of the leagues rankings.
He started or had significant playing time against a 6 game gauntlet of likely playoff teams. And now I'm deeply curious as to how Allen would do against the next 6 teams of which only 1 is a likely playoff team. IMO the Bills organization should be even more curious then me about this.
What it comes down to between the "start Allen" & "start Barkley" folks is what is more important - possibly winning a couple of more games this season or getting a quality read on your top 10 draft pick QB. I get the desire to win games and watch an offense that looks competent. But isn't that what we've been looking at for the last 19 years with ONE playoff appearance to show for it? To me it's an obvious choice - you go all in with Allen until he proves he's either a bust or your franchise QB.
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Play Allen & sit Barkley. No one is going to believe that Allen, who was almost able to go today is still not recovered enough to go in 2 weeks. My reasons are simple:
* The let Allen sit and learn crowd have a good point ONLY if Allen wasn't named the starter in week 2. At that point "sit & learn" went out the window. There are consequences to benching the 7th pick in the draft for getting injured. Allen had the starting job and when he's healthy, which looks to be now, he gets it back.
* We know exactly what we have in Barkley. And it's good news - he looks to be a competent back up QB. However to look at him in any other way is to ignore the mans body of work which was accumulated over 6 years in the NFL.
* We think we know what we have in Allen, otherwise he's not a high first round draft pick, but we don't know for sure. It's critical that we find out. And when you spend the 7th pick in the draft on a QB you have to give them at least 2 seasons to make the assessment. If Allen doesn't see the field the rest of the year then we're looking at 2020 before we know whether we've got our guy or if it's back square one at QB. There is NO other question facing this franchise more important then this one.
* And it's more then just figuring out if Allen is the guy. Even if he is the guy, we still have to develop him and the only way to do that at this point is to give him NFL reps. And to be fair, in the 6 games that Allen started or had significant playing time, he faced teams that are all probably going to the playoffs. In the last 6 games only New England is a likely playoff team. I for one would like to see what Allen & this offense can do playing defenses that aren't in the top 10.
* I think Allen has shown that he's pretty tough mentally but everyone has their limits. So let's say that McDermott goes with Barkley and tries to skirt the issue when questioned by the media by claiming that Allen still isn't 100%? What does Allen say when the media asks him? Do we really want Allen claiming he is healthy and dispute his head coach. Am I the only one that can see how this turns into a mess real fast. This isn't fantasy football here, these are human beings with real emotions and how they react to this kind of stuff can be unpredictable.
* Oh and for the record if they start Allen he may very well not play as good as Barkley. Starting Allen is something you do for the long-term good of the franchise. But then again if the Bills think Barkley is their best chance to win then maybe they should trade Allen (I'm being facetious here). As an aside folks bring up Mahonnes but KC was a legit playoff contender and Alex Smith was a PROVEN starting NFL QB. The Bills are not playoff contenders and Barkley is not a starting QB.
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13 minutes ago, B Fan in LA said:
There is a good argument to start Barkley one more game to see if he's for real, or not.
But I think we need to plug Allen back in again when he's ready and let him get some experience.
It's very likely Allen ends up in concussion protocol before the end of the season and we can watch Barkley again.
Even if Barkley plays well in a couple more games does that really tell us that he's a starting caliber QB? He's had 6 years and a bunch of different opportunities to demonstrate that he's more then a back-up QB.
Bottom line is we already know that he's not a starting QB in a way that we don't know about Allen. The goal with Allen going forward is twofold: 1) Develop him as a starting QB that can be the guy for us over the next 10 years AND 2) determine whether he is the guy ASAP so we can cut our ties and move forward if he's not. We can't do either of these things if he's sitting on the bench.
When the Bills named Allen the starter in week 2 and he kept that job until he went down with an injury, they lost any chance to sit him down and have him "learn" now. It's like losing your virginity - there's no going back.
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30 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:
What I think happens is Barkley starts until we lose and Allen's injury is used as the excuse.
IMO this only works if Allen is a robot. But from his comments the last week he's chomping at the bit to play. There will be an emotional toll on the guy if McDermott plays games with Allen over whether he'll be starting in 2 weeks.
The Bills lost the luxury to sit Allen this year because of the GM & coaches screw-up during the off season. That's water under the bridge now. But I believe that if they now play head games with Allen and try to use his injury as an excuse to not play him they are potentially doubling down on their first screw-up. To realistically have a shot at the playoffs the Bills will likely have to win all 6 of their remaining games. Do folks actually believe that this is likely or even possible? If the Bills were even 5 - 5 I would say go with the hot hand. But at 3 - 7 you start Allen and begin the development/evaluation process in earnest.
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49 minutes ago, Limeaid said:
Bills not certain of starting QB after Matt Barkley beats Jets
The Bills' 313 yards and four offensive touchdowns in the first half against the Jets were their most since Doug Flutie led Buffalo to 332 first-half yards in a season-ending win in 2000.
Look I've made my opinion known on a number of threads but this quote from your article says it all to me:
A source told ESPN's Adam Schefter before Sunday's win that Allen is expected to be ready to return after the Bills' bye week from a sprained elbow he suffered Oct. 14. Allen had been pushing to play and felt ready to go against the Jets before the team opted to hold him out, according to the source.
If McDermott wants to risk Allen's development then go with the hot hand in a quest to go 6 - 10 this season. The mental game for a QB is just as important as the physical game. The Bills did the right thing in not starting Allen to allow him to fully recover. But if they start playing games like they did this summer, then they risk screwing Allen up mentally. Keep in mind that when Tampa's young QB got healthy Fitz, who was the hottest hand in the NFL, was benched and didn't get back in until Winston looked Petermen like.
You do the same thing here and unless Allen looks like Peterman, you go with him even if he's initially less effective then Barkley was today.
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I think the title of this thread is backwards - If Allen is ready and McDermott starts Barkley in a misguided effort to go with the "hot hand" he should be fired. As others have noted:
* We are not in the playoff race which would be the ONLY reason to go with the "hot hand" at this point. Barkley is not the answer. Whether Allen is remains to be seen. But given that we used the 7th pick in the draft to take him AND we knew he needed to be developed not starting him at this point would be coaching malpractice on McDermott's part.
* Allen has been thrown to the wolves so it's to late to pull him back. He needs to get NFL snaps. It may not be pretty and he could very well stink against Jacksonville but so what. This season is about developing Allen and getting information on whether he is the guy or not.
* Don't underestimate how much they could screw-up Allen mentally if they start playing games with him if he's ready to come back. He seems to be rearing to go and we have the chance to see his body of work over a 6 game run. It would be managerial & coaching incompetence to not take this opportunity.
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Great game by Barkley. From a long term strategic standpoint this is a big deal in that we have landed our back-up QB for the foreseeable future. But for those saying he should keep starting my take is no way. Allen should be declared the starter for the Jacksonville game this week unless he regressed in his injury. Allen should be given as many reps with the 1st team as possible.
In other news Petermen should be cut if Allen is ready to go.
As an aside, I thought this was the game where Dabold pulled out all the stops and Barkley was clearly the beneficiary of the offensive creativity we saw today. the only caution I would throw out is that now that some of these plays are on film don't expect them to work as well the next time. The Jets to me looked like a defense that thought they could just show up and hold the Bills to less then 10 points. You just can't do that in the NFL.
13 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:This raises the question, does Barkley remain the starter and we go back to our original plan to let Allen learn from the sidelines the rest of this year? Or do we start Allen after the bye week?
The worst thing the Bills organization can do at this time is to not start Allen when he's healthy enough to go. The give Allen a year train left the station in week 2. They must have unwavering commitment to Allen as the starter until they know for sure he's not cut out for it. IMO that would be the rest of this season and all of next season.
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The yards per attempted pass, a very important passing game metric, were abysmal for Peterman today. Say what you will about Allen but he pushes the ball downfield. And as I read on another post a steady diet of short passes around the LOS will always result in weird bounces and chaotic stuff happening. It will also lead to a lot of punts and few points being scored.
Bills already behind in the NFL’s newest trend....
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
The way I see it is I'll be thrilled if Allen follows in Goff's footsteps. You know, declared a "bust" his rookie season then surrounded with talent in his 2nd year and now in his 3rd year functioning as an elite level QB leading a 10 - 1 team. Now that would be sweet and Allen would still be on his rookie contract.
Have I missed anything?