UConn James

B/c the Geneva Convention does not apply to non-state-sanctioned insurgents. Also, if they are to be treated as POWs under the GC, then there's no need for trials. They'd be held until someone signs a treaty and the end of fighting.... Only, that doesn't seem bloody likely to happen, now does it? This is a wholly different kind of war against a different kind of enemy. How many times has that been explained by Tom, BiB, et al in the last 7 years? You just don't get it, do you? In WWII, you may not have realized it, but tens of thousands of German POWs were held in-country and kept in camps for the duration of the war --- no trials, no habeus corpus, just, as the GC required, meals, housing, etc. in a climate similar to where they were captured (that's right, if a POW was captured in Siberia, the GC says you must hold him in approximately such conditions). There was a camp in central CT, actually. And after the war, many of them stayed or immigrated back to the US b/c, they said, 'We were treated better as prisoners over here than our own people treated us as soldiers.' But those were different times and a different enemy. Why not treat them as American citizens? Gee... maybe b/c they are not American citizens. Seriously, WTF?!! Doubt they would want to be treated like a citizen of the Great Satan. So, a scared kitty to you is defined as we who want to protect ourselves from people who've taken vows to inflict jihad by suicide if necessary, on America? I especially love the 'You want to suspend everyone's civil liberties' charge. Great, that. No leap over a wide chasm there.... . I don't mind suspending the liberty of people who've taken up arms against our military in the course of battle, same as I don't mind restricting gun rights to those convicted of felonies, or to ban child rapists from living within x-distance from schools. I don't think the slope is nearly as slippery as you love to suggest. There are many salient reasons why holding them here poses a threat. It could encourage attacks on the homeland, possibility of prison break, which would put them right where they want to be w/o even needing a passport. It's a much smaller world even than it was in WW2. You're entitled to your 'everyone failed' theory; I'd say it's right... and I'd also say why are you so sure things like it won't happen again? My point about Specter was that the administration of justice can sometimes take quite a while, even under the best of circumstances. Your righteous indignation that 'nothing's happened yet! Why is it taking so long! Are we there yet?!' is classic Americanism. It's pretty easy to be a critic about something you understand very little of the minutia of and shoot spitballs from the lib apologist peanut gallery.

Did you read the first part of my post #204 in this thread? Been waiting for someone to comment. I think the recruitment side of things might have gotten messed up b/w the two. Plenty of similarities in their birth stories that Ben might have been the classic 'wrong man.' I don't know if Ben is depressed, as such. After having unsuccessfully tried to kill off his competition for leadership (which he said he should have known would happen b/c the island wouldn't let Locke die --- that is to say, in Desmond-flashback-ese "the universe was course correcting"/preventing --- b/c his role isn't done) we saw the transition of power this week. I don't know. Ben, despite his selfishness and desire to save his own ass and get done what he wants done thru whatever means necessary (usually by getting other people to do your dirty work and killing for you)... wants what's best for the island.

I could see something like that for Widmore given what we've seen of him and a connection to the Black Rock and his conversation with Ben. He may be in the same boat as Michael --- he left the island somehow, and now he can't die and is trying to find it again. Whether it's to try to take advantage of it commercially ('Eternal Life! Yours for $50M!!') or if it's a solo thing like Michael that he's tired of life and wants to die (in his chat with Desmond, you just get the sense that he's been to the top, made a fortune that hasn't made him happy, knows so much, but it's all old hat to him now and he just wants it over... who knows. Like I wrote the other week, the game b/w he and Ben is kind of a Reverse Highlander? There's no reason to make such a connection for Richard; we know of no tie b/w him and the Black Rock, which is a little late in the game for his character, but that may be purposeful. Last week Kate simply said the phone conversation was something that Sawyer wouldn't want her to share. I got the read that she is doing something for Sawyer's daughter (I forget her name but it was in the ep where he's in prison and puts all the reward money in her name) with the woman he conned. Remember that Kate also met her before 815. Vouchsafe that Sawyer is still on the island. Jack got jealous b/c... well... he's Jack, and he doesn't have a big project to fix. If he doesn't have a problem, he makes one for himself.

Well, she did leave Aaron with Charlie for stretches --- either willingly or the times Charlie had those dreams. And there was the time Rousseau took him. That's just off the top of my head, but I think that's it. And still... she was set to give Aaron up for adoption to "a couple in Los Angeles" about 4 months ago in island-time, then was ready to give him to the Others (admittedly, she was in a hazy state) when Ethan took her. I don't think they'll leave the Christian explanation dangling over to next season. But it could just be something they don't have to explain --- CS was on the plane in a coffin, it crashed on the island and was empty when Jack opened it (did the island's curative powers bring him back?), he's been seen walking around before --- and now it just is.

Recycling... Is Garbage. Bit of a long read, but this article makes a good case that there are plenty of people more interested in a boondoggle with land deals or 'action groups' that take donations and moneylaunder it around or those who get off on making people apologize for living and feel bad about themselves than doing things that are good for the environment. Recycling some items is a net-loss enterprise at this point, such as for gloss paper, plastics, etc. But for other items, it's pretty easy and worthwhile, such as plain newsprint; metals that can be melted and reformed (scrap metal is bigtime right now eg brass, copper, aluminum); wood that can be chopped up for OSB, etc.

HFB!

He said 57. Puerto Rico and Guam (they actually have party delegates), American Samoa, Wake Island, US Virgin Islands are territories or possessions of the United States.... and then there's Afghanistan, and Iraq, whose lands we could have bought 4 times over with all the $ we've pumped in there. Tell Betsy Ross to get busy! I do concede in judgment tho, that with the candidates' schedules, the sleep deprivation has got to be mind-numbing if not carefully monitored. I've been on 2-3 hours of sleep per night for ~ 2 weeks before due to really loud tinnitus from an ear infection and by the end, my mind was ing frazzled.

I doubt they could seat a jury in NYC that would convict unanimously. And then, I wouldn't be surprised if he leaked this story to the papers so he can inspire his poverty-strapped minion lemmings to each send in their $5 contributions along with any corporate lucre he can gorge. The !@#$ greed of these bottom-feeders is disgusting. At least I now know to boycott Pepsi-Co and Anheuser-Busch. Then again, I don't drink either of their swill anyway.

Link. They mention the case, but failed to mention that Rev. Al also still owes a police officer $150K for libel in his Brawley hoax.

Franklin actually was instrumental in the physical building of many of those frontier forts out of logged timber, and went on scouting missions (one where he describes how the Native Americans had constructed a smokeless campfire from charcoal off burned logs to keep themselves warm at night... and that the natives decided not to attack vs. so many men at the fort). Let me remind you that the colonists did not show attacking natives (or non-attacking natives for that matter...) much mercy. Nor pirates, who were pretty much hanged on the spot.

I highly doubt Claire is dead... yet. Just b/c she's in the cabin and was brought there by a ghost(?) of her/Jack's father doesn't mean anything in itself. Jack following his father led him to the caves and fresh water. Young Ben following his mother led him to Richard. We also have Hurley following Dave (was this a ghost or mental projection?), Eko following Yemi (was the smoke monster --- was this brought upon by Ben?), among other instances of apparitions of people who shouldn't have been where they were (Walt twice, notably). We have yet to learn the circumstance of why Kate has Aaron, but even that is not necessarily reason to believe that Claire has died.

BURN HIM!!!!

Point the First... Franklin was considered a traitor/rebel by the British, and very well that he would have been hanged if caught during the Revolution, or at minimum that he would've been kept in jail at least until the end of the conflict. He accepted this b/c he was a practical man, if you've ever read his autobiography. But he also didn't have to fear being hanged by the British after the war when he was a diplomat b/c that was rationally accepted --- the war was over. The GWOT won't be over until all who want to attack the US are dead or in jail for life, b/c as has been made abundantly clear, they will fight 'til the death. It just does not follow that he'd support giving foreign terrorists the rights of citizens when they and their ilk blew up sh-- in the country he helped found. Liberty and freedom go only so far when bombs are going off and your people's heads are being cut off. In fact, he'd probably want the Gitmo inmates executed after a summary of the facts, just as the colonial govt hanged John Andre in the Benedict Arnold matter, even tho the colonists liked Andre and would rather have exchanged him for Arnold. They didn't give Andre the opportunity to say that his 5-year-old daughter had drawn up the maps that were found in his boots --- they said, 'You were found at such-and-such a place with such-and-such in your possession. You're hereby sentenced to the gallows as a spy. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.' Yet, this admin can't do things as simply as that b/c it's not 'germane' in the world's view in this age of rehabilitation and wrist-slap motherment. Point the Second... Where did I state that the US beams with pride over Japanese-American internment? FDR et al knew it was morally wrong, yet they ordered it done b/c they could not take the risk. IIRC, one terrorist tribunal was started last fall. Perhaps the govt wants to test the legitimacy/conduct of them before they go balls to the wall on 300+ cases. Phil Specter was arrested in early 2003; he had a mistrial last Sept. Four years. For a citizen of this country. Not in a war zone (then again, it's LA... ) or multinational conflicts, treaties or laws to sort through to see what applies and coming upon an absence of laws, wtf could be done to chart some territory. And then there's the gem that's the last quoted paragraph, which I think you had help on from molson. How the does having police officers in this country relate in any shape or form to transnational terrorists captured in conflicts in other nations? And furthermore, who the put it in your brain that said terrorists have, or should have, the same rights as a US citizen in regard to "innocent until proven guilty"? They don't!!!! That's a main reason of the holdup. B/c as Tom writes above, there isn't a solid legal definition for what they are. They're essentially in limbo until things are figured out.

In terms of their survival vis-a-vis their goals, yes. In terms of their tactics, no. It's a smart, committed* enemy that uses our systems and ideological dissension present in the machinations of our society against itself. We're busy discussing what color jumpsuits Gitmo inmates should wear. We're so concerned with propriety and treating our enemies to a U.S. citizen's rights of 'Better to let a guilty man free'. We're so pent up in this question of America's standing in the world and what everyone thinks of us.... while they conduct suicide bombings and beheadings. If we let Gitmo prisoners go free to conduct spectacular attacks in Iraq/Afghanistan that make the pillow-biters in this country want to grasp retreat from the jaws of victory, I'll tell you what America's standing in the world will be.

Yeah. So far, Jack and that contingent of the Lostaways do not know about Widmore's army. The phones to this point have showed/encouraged them how to meet up with the freighter people, not as a means to avoid them. This may change when Daniel or the other girl fills in, b/c I doubt they want to be on the island when the poop hits the air conditioning of what they know or suspect is coming.

Precisely my point. People (nay, citizens, many) who had done nothing wrong besides being born to the wrong nationality parents were put into camps w/o due process for several years b/c the govt at the time could not afford to risk that they wouldn't. By all accounts, they didn't like that they had to take this action, but it was something they had to do. By contrast, our govt today has captured people (non-citizens, most) who have done something wrong --- to wit, actively engaging our forces in combat or providing substantial material aid --- and decided that they couldn't risk these people getting out and rejoining their cause, to which they have dedicated suicidal-attack intentions. I'm not trying to say they're the same thing. I'm saying if FDR found it necessary to detain innocents w/o due process (even tho he morally thought that it shouldn't be done but practically it had to be done), why do the majority of pillow-biters in this country not understand a necessity to detain combatants w/o due process? Hammer --> Head of the nail.

To me, that doesn't satisfy the mindset that led to them willingly kamakazi'ing themselves among other notorious stories. A country doesn't just draft someone and immediately have a zombie drone. It was ingrained into every part of the culture similar to the religious texts/teachings of segments of the Islamic world to a fervent or tacit degree.

On the subject of the thread, tho, they've also rendered to countries where the accused is exonerated of terrorism and then in short order, conducts a terrorist suicide bombing. Probably not what they wanted, but you can't control what other countries do.

Prol'ly the reason for the much-used sarcastic "Oh... wait" right after.

Why not? Because you say it isn't? Not perfectly comparable, but then again, what situation is when we're going slightly off the map of charted territory? Both involve the detention of people our govt perceived to be an enemy. In WW2, that tho nothing had been done, the possibility existed; now, that most of the Gitmo detainees were captured actively fighting our forces. As I've said before, I would support charges in a military court. I believe the administration does as well, but they've been been slow to act (govt? slow to act? No!) precisely b/c they're charting new ground. So far they have been able to skirt this by capturing and holding them off the mainland. But with the trial from last fall, seems like charges will trickle in. Not exactly how one'd want it done, but then again, you and I aren't party to the nitty-gritty. Frig... Phil Spector was held for like 4 years before he went to trial, no? But suppose they are all tried and justice is meted. Where do you put them when you advocate shutting down Gitmo?

Which was uberweird, given that Faraday's experiment suggested that time moved slower on the island. So, you'd think that the doctor's body wouldn't arrive until quite awhile after he was killed in off-island time. Instead, it showed up before it happened. This is now suggestive that the island's time is not merely lagging as we first thought --- it's wildly differential from off-island time. Could be a day ahead at one moment and 30 minutes behind at another. ... And then, what's to stop it from being 30 years differential that would allow Richard et al to travel into the flashbacks or the flashforwards?

What of the Japanese-American internment camps during WW2? Anyone going to try to argue that they were a major reason for Pearl Harbor? Oh... wait. Or that the Japanese attacked us any more viciously than they would have otherwise? The potential of having 'sleeper cells' free on US soil was a risk that FDR just couldn't take. Not to make a direct comparison: the J-A hadn't been captured in an act of combating U.S. forces. There is a sizable contingent in Islam that annually beat themselves bloody for not being there in 700 A.D. when one or other of their leaders were killed. Whatever perception was formed by U.S. actions promoting terrorist recruitment... well, I'd say the damage is done. This stuff of bending over backwards for POWs with the goal of eventually releasing them was intended for rational people --- that they would see the cause of their nation's military is over and stop fighting (I'd say this is still applicable in conventional state-state conflict). Victory in the GWOT will be defined by the absence of people willing to do anything and everything and fight to the last suicidal twitch in their fervency. You ever let the inmates in Gitmo out of our custody, you have GWOT+1. (edited)

First, I'll just point out the intended similarities b/w Locke's story and Ben's S2 flashback. Both mothers encountered a car when they went into very early pregnancy and the baby 'miraculously' survived (with some help from either DI or the Others)... Ben's mother's name was Emily... Perhaps the island just got the wrong man in a case of mistaken identity? When Richard showed up at the orphanage and asked young John to pick his belongings, I sensed an homage to the movie about the Dhali Lama (forget... was it "Seven Years in Tibet"?) and how he is identified by selecting physical objects that belonged to the previous incarnation of the DL. Also interesting that teen John was gifted in science and recruited by Mittelos but disavowed it b/c it made him unpopular... and became the so-called man of faith after the black dude suggested he do the walkabout for spiritual guidance. Just a way of hedging bets. But wait. These people are representing different sides of DI/Others. One is advocating science, the other faith, and it's not the way you might've guessed. DI pushing faith; Others pushing science. What's going on here? Speaking of Richard, it seems like his appearance to young Ben may not have been an indication that he doesn't age, just that he was time-traveling at that first contact, too. Recruiting does seem to be Richard's main job. What's the mechanical device under the military guy's arm? Yes, is Christian alive or dead is a question that's now on the table. We've seen him, had references to him in Jack's flashforwards.... Moving the island isn't a phenomenon that's new to discussion --- and this is going back to the snow globe from the comic book. Many people have argued that the island has been in various places before and moved around. Some really funny moments from Ben tonight. "Destiny is a fickle... B word!" and him staring at Hurley's candy bar for like 10 seconds of silence and guilting him into splitting it both had me . Something that's been lacking since Charlie's death.

My brother escorted a goodly number to Gitmo in the year after 9/11 with his Raven team. Remember those pictures of the detainees gagged and bound? That wasn't done for sh--s and giggles. It's like that kid in Rhode Island a few years back who shot the detective in the interrogation room. Then they took him to court and he beat some guards. Then they took him to court in heavy chains and he spit on everything. Then they took him to court in a Hannibal Lecter mask. Now, after his initial arrest, people made a big to-do about his black eye that the usual suspects shouted was police brutality. Then the POS started all the other stuff and they shut up quickly. Guy didn't care what happened to him and that's one of the most dangerous people to be around.

You know, Walt Whitman wrote some great lines of free verse about the nature of America. Among them, in "Song of Myself": "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes." I think he's qualified to speak, having been a nurse for the Union and supporting the war b/w the states even tho he detested war. He went along with Sherman's 'March to the Sea' and its brutality b/c it broke the will of the South. And don't suppose that his words were simplistic and contemporary --- if you can say nothing else about him, Whitman was deep and precise, able to take a step back and see the larger scope and the absurdities, the everyday hypocrisies in himself and his country that just were and, same today, just are. It's nice for the textbooks to say that you have a set standard, a universal code of conduct, whatever, that you always follow to the T, but back in the real world, that isn't always possible nor is it always preferable in order to achieve what needs to be achieved to secure safety. Please always respect a president's job of daily having to decide courses of action among utter confusion and in direct conflict with your principles. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown." Sometimes things that don't seem right either given the rules or in gut feeling have to be done b/c they have to be done. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand much.