ChiGoose

Serious delay on getting this together due to being very busy. I doubt many people care about this anyway, but I think it helps to document the actual evidence being presented. Will watch today's hearing over the next couple days and try to get notes up quicker. Despite the serious implications of this hearing, I don't have any takeaways other than the sheer scope of Gaetz's pardon request makes me wonder if he had *minor* concerns about legal exposure. RECAP: Eric Herschmann (WH Lawyer): Told Jeffrey Clark that Clark's plan to send a letter to Georgia about election fraud was a felony Matt Gaetz was looking for a very broad pardon: “from the beginning of time up until today, for any and all things.” Jeffrey Rosen (Deputy AG and then Acting AG): Between December 23rd and Jan 3rd, Trump called or met with him almost every day to discuss election fraud Rosen told him their reviews did not find that to be the case. Trump asked him to seize voting machines and Rosen said they looked into them and there was nothing wrong. So it was not appropriate Told Trump that he would not meet with the people proposing the theory Italian satellites changed votes. If they had something, they could go to any FBI office if they had evidence Jeffrey Clark told Rosen that Trump had asked him to consider replacing Rosen. Rosen old Clark that he was making a colossal error in judgment and there was no factual basis for the fraud assertions Later, Clark told Rosen that Trump offered him Rosen's job and he accepted Rosen called Mark Meadows and said he needed to see Trump right away. Set uo a meeting in 2 hours Called WH General Counsel Pat Cipollone and told him what was going on. Cipollone would attend meeting and support DoJ position Asked OLC Head Steve Engel to come in to the meeting Asked Acting Deputy AG Richard Donoghue and his CoS to get the department senior leadership on a call and let them know what was going on Eric Herschmann called and said he was going and would support the DoJ position At the Jan 3rd meeting Clark said he would turn down the offer if Rosen signed the letter to Georgia saying the DoJ had concerns. Rosen refused Trump said Rosen wouldn’t do anything Rosen said the reason is that the facts and law are against Trump’s plan Richard Donoghue (Acting Deputy AG) After Barr’s resignation, Trump had an arsenal of allegations. Donoghue made it very clear to the president that based on actual investigations the fraud allegations had no merit Trump was fixated on election fraud claims. Donoghue told him that what people were telling Trump was not true and he could not rely on them Trump said he wanted them to say it was corrupt and leave the rest up to him and the GOP congressmen Clark sent Donoghue a letter he wanted him to sign stating that the DoJ had concerns about Georgia's election. The letter was contrary to the facts and the law. White House lawyer Pat Cipollone was supportive of the DoJ positions Clark and Kash Patel told him about the theory that Italian satellites changed vote tallies. It was "pure insanity." Trump said "You guys may not be following the internet the way I do." Donoghue held a call with the Assistant Attorneys General (AAG) about Clark replacing Rosen All of the AAGs said they would resign Donoghue told John Demers to stay on as he covered National Security and it was too important On Jan 3rd meeting: Clark wanted to conduct investigations that he believed would uncover fraud and send a letter to Georgia stating that the DoJ had concerns about their election Clark was not competent to serve Said to Clark: “You’re an environmental lawyer. How about you go back to your office and we’ll call you when there’s an oil spill.” Pat Cipollone stated that Clarks’ letter is a mudar-suicide pact and we should have nothing to do with it Trump proposed replacing Jeff Rosen with Jeff Clark Trump said, "What do I have to lose?" Donoghue responded "You have a great deal to lose. You're talking about putting a man in that seat who has never tried a criminal case, he's never conducted a criminal investigation. He's telling you he's going to take charge of the department, 115,000 employees, including the entire FBI, and turn the place on a dime and conduct a nationwide criminal investigation that will produce results in a matter of days. It's impossible, It's absurd. It's not going to happen and he's going to fail." Trump to Donoghue: "Suppose I replace Rosen with Clark, what would you do?" Donoghue: "Mr. President, I would resign immediately. I am not working one minute for this guy." Donoghue told Trump that the AAGs would walk out. The entire leadership would resign within hours. "Mr. President, within 24, 48, 73 hours, you would have hundreds and hundreds of resignations of the entire Justice Department leadership... what's that going to say about you?" Nobody in the room supported Clark. Trump asked Donoghue if he would fie Clark. Donoghue told Trump he didn't have the authority Trump asked who did. Donoghue told Trump that only Trump did. Trump said he would not fire Clark Donoghue said: "Ok, well we should all get back to work." Steve Engel (Head of the OLC): No reason to doubt Barr’s conclusion that there was no widespread fraud Trump sent a draft lawsuit for the DoJ to file Engel: There is no legal basis to bring this lawsuit… Anyone who thinks otherwise simply does not know the law, much less the Supreme Court. At Jan 3rd meeting: Trump asked if Engel would resign if he replaced Rosen with Clark “I’ve been with you through four AGs but I couldn’t be part of this.” “All anyone is going to think is that you went through two AGs in two weeks until you found the environmental guy to sign this thing. The story is not going to be that the DoJ has found massive corruption that would change the result of the election, it’s going to be the disaster of Jeff Clark.” Cassidy Hutchinson (Mark Meadows' Aide): Matt Gaetz and Mo Brooks both wanted pardons Reps. Biggs, Gohmert, and Perry asked for a pardon Jim Jordan talked about getting a pardon but did not ask for one Jeff Clark video testimony: When asked about the letter and the plan, plead the fifth. Sidney Powell video testimony: Trump asked her to be special counsel for election issues Documents: White House call log on Jan 3rd already referred to Clark as AG

Is your argument that the committee is a sham because all of these Republicans, Trump employees, Trump appointees, and Trump supporters are lying?

How many people on this board keep espousing theories about the 2020 election that have been thoroughly debunked? The Left is not alone in its issues. The most vocal and powerful faction of the Right believes in outright lies.

Yes, but why acknowledge that when you can point to people on Twitter who are enjoying the limo story and make fun of them instead of recognizing that Trump is in serious legal jeopardy?

I never stated that I 100% believed her. She was clear that she heard the story secondhand. It should obviously be taken with a grain of salt. My point was that she was testifying under oath. The sources you are pointing out are not. This is a constant theme here: people who testify under oath are discarded for people who haven't or won't, because it fits the poster's political narrative. In any situation in which one person faces a penalty for lying and the other doesn't, there should be a rebuttable presumption that the first is more likely (though not necessarily) to be telling the truth. If the driver of the limo testifies under oath that it never happened, I would absolutely believe them over someone who heard the incident as a story from someone else. That just makes sense.

This tells you all you need to know about how dumb these arguments are. One person testifies under oath. Another person challenges that but not only will not testify under oath but they wont even put their name to their statement. That’s good enough for @B-Man! Priors are confirmed. So anonymous source outweighs sworn testimony. Even if the Secret Service has been cooperating with the investigation.

Trump, Giuliani, and Eastman wanted Pence to delay the certification and send the election back to the states. I agree that this is an insanely stupid idea that makes no sense, but it was the plan that the President of the United States was pushing.

The plan was to have Mike Pence reject or delay certification of the election so that they would have more time to put pressure on the states to undo their results.

If she’s lying, he should testify to that under oath.

This guy?

I must have missed his speech on the Ellipse.

He almost certainly suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It’s not surprising he has the self control of a toddler.

Lots of straw man happening there. There was an attack on the Capitol after a Trump rally nearby. Many of the people just followed the crowd. We also know that several groups actually planned to break in and occupy the building. We know that one of those groups was in contact with people in Trump’s circle. We do not know if Trump himself was involved in the planning. We have a recording of Trump meeting all of the elements of violating Georgia election law. We have sworn testimonial evidence and documentary evidence of Trump likely meeting the elements of Conspiracy to Commit Fraud Against the United States. To your point, what will come of it? I am skeptical that the DoJ would charge a former president with a crime even if they had them dead to rights. In the meantime, it’s at least nice to have a historical record, and hopefully we will at least get prosecutions of some of the people higher up the food chain.

Agreed. I’m not overly optimistic about DoJ there.

Looking into one potential crime and finding various other crimes is not a “shift”

Yes the entire Jan 6 investigation was to cover up the sentencing of Maxwell. You figured it out! Good job! You get a gold star!

That’s a good question. I haven’t been able to follow today’s hearing closely but they have testimony that he wanted the metal detectors removed from the capital. The point I was trying to make is that saying people should do something peacefully doesn’t negate all other actions taken to increase the likelihood of violence. People keep posting that quote like it’s a magic spell that prevents any culpability. All of that being said, the attack on the Capitol is not the only crime that they are looking into. Even if they find no link between Trump and the attackers, they have already exposed that he committed other crimes in the lead up to Jan 6th. So far it’s just the people who will testify under oath.

I planned to rob the bank with my buddies. And we went to the bank, and I said “go into the bank, peacefully” and then they went in and robbed it. Therefore, I am not guilty of anything.

Hey, don’t kink shame.

What are you even talking about? Are you high? We don’t know if Trump or people around him coordinated with the Proud Boys or the other groups. That’s literally what we have an investigation for: to figure things out. I don’t know if there is a link between them. But I do know that we now have plenty of evidence of Trump himself committing actual crimes. So there’s always that.

Late term abortions are generally people who wanted the pregnancy but find out news about the life of the fetus or the mother is in danger. They likely already have a name picked out and a nursery set up. A lot of these talking points make it sound like there are masses of people out there who go through all of the difficulties of pregnancy for 8-9 months and then suddenly decide on a whim they don’t want the baby. It doesn’t make any sense and the number of instances of this likely vanishingly small. EDIT: This all comes down to how you define “late term.” Given the tone of the discussion about people aborting just before delivery, I was thinking it was ~30 weeks. Apparently, 21 weeks is considered “late term” despite being before fetal viability. Abortions at 21 weeks represent just 1.3% of abortions but do not fit the scenario I outlined above. Link: https://amp.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/mar/07/abortion-late-term-what-pregnancy-stage

I am a bit surprised it’s not someone higher up like Pat Cipollone given the urgency. But I’ve also seen reporting that she was facing credible threats so they wanted to lock her testimony in now.

The Texas stories are pretty recent and generally deal with their recent abortion law. What we are looking at is a debate about how competent state legislatures are at understanding the science and nuance around pregnancy. Given the examples and legislatures in general, it’s hard to feel optimistic about that.

Here are some examples based on current laws, laws pre-Roe, and laws in other countries to give an example of the potential dangers being faced here from lack of access to abortions or unclear / ambiguous abortion laws. Connecticut (pre-Roe): Woman dies from at-home abortion Washington (pre-Roe): Woman dies from botched abortion A different woman dies from a botched abortion At least 13 women died from botched abortions in the Seattle area between 1945 and 1969 Texas: Woman with ectopic pregnancy is turned down by doctors, drives 12 hours for treatment Patients who are miscarrying cannot get a pharmacy to fill their prescription Pharmacy will no longer provide methotrexate Woman has a miscarriage on wedding day but has to travel out of state for treatment Despite the fetus being incompatible with life, woman has to leave the state for treatment Malta: American Woman experiences partial miscarriage and has to be airlifted out of the country for treatment Poland: Woman dies in Poland after doctors refused to perform abortion when the fetus's heart stopped beating Another woman died in Poland after doctors were unsure if they could perform an abortion under the current law Ireland: Woman dies in Ireland during miscarriage after doctors refused to perform an abortion Nicaragua: Woman with ectopic pregnancy dies after treatment refused because of abortion ban Dominican Republic: Pregnant 16 year old with cancer dies after being denied treatment due to pregnancy Generally: Abortion laws complicate treatment for pregnant women with cancer Study finds states with more restrictive abortion laws had higher rates of maternal mortality Colorado study finds that banning abortion nationwide would lead to a 21% increase in pregnancy-related deaths Avoiding these kinds of negative externalities requires very well informed legislatures who write tight laws with little to no ambiguity. Without any kinds of guardrails now, I sincerely doubt that is the world that women will find themselves in.

Thankfully, I live in Chicago, where we have had little issue getting treatment for my wife’s five miscarriages. But the experience has made me really read up on miscarriages, the law, and abortion. Her first miscarriage was ectopic and while I was in the waiting room while she got a D&C for a different miscarriage, I read an article about a proposed law in Ohio that would have required doctors to re-implant an ectopic pregnancy, a procedure that does not exist.