ChiGoose
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Posts posted by ChiGoose
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3 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:
Trump, and any citizen of the country, has a right to government information that is not classified, most of us have to go through a much larger process but we all have the right to it. It being classified is the crux of the argument, I am confused on how anyone would argue otherwise.
You do not have a right to physically possess any government documents you want, whether they are classified or not. Are you arguing that you can just go into a government building and take any documents you want so long as they aren’t classified?None of the statutes that Trump is being investigated for violating require the documents to be classified. I don’t think they even mention classification at all. The fact that some were classified underscores the potential danger of mishandling of government documents but is not very relevant to the legal jeopardy Trump is in.
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Just now, Orlando Tim said:
Trump as president has the authority to declassify anything he wanted, Biden never did. Since there is not an official formal process that must be followed to declassify something the simplest argument is Trump declassified them. What is Bidens reason?
Whether or not they were classified is completely irrelevant. Neither person has the right to posses them, classified or not.
What is the same: Trump and Biden had documents they had no right to
What is different: When Biden’s team discovered the documents, they notified the government and handed them over. Trump refused to return the documents even when told he had no right to possess them.
If Trump had handed all of the documents back, he wouldn’t be in trouble.
If it’s discovered that Biden knew he had the documents he shouldn’t have and refused to return them, he should be in trouble.
This really isn’t that hard, folks.
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Just now, wnyguy said:
Yeah, it's different when it's your guy, ain't it?
No, it’s different when the facts are different. If Biden did the same thing as Trump, then he should be indicted. But he didn’t, so the cases aren’t the same no matter how much Trumpers pretend they are.-
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32 minutes ago, B-Man said:
Democrats Claim Biden's Classified Documents Scandal is 'Different,' but the Receipts Tell a Different Story
In a somewhat comical turn of events, Joe Biden has found himself caught up in his own scandal surrounding the improper possession and handling of classified documents. That comes after the current president chastised Donald Trump last year for much the same thing, asserting that he didn’t understand how anyone could “be that irresponsible.”
As reported, no less than 10 classified documents were found at the Penn Biden Center in an office used by the now-president before he entered the White House. Because the Penn Biden Center wasn’t even founded until 2018, it is clear that the documents were transported there during a period when Biden did not have the legal authority to have them.
Naturally, Democrats and their press allies set out to move the goalposts. In fact, they’ve been uprooted and tossed into the sea at this point. According to them, what Biden did is “different” because, though he possessed the documents, he didn’t try to “obstruct” the National Archives from retrieving them.
Here’s Sen. Dick Durbin playing that game.
Of course, the documents were not “immediately” sent to the Archives. Rather, they were held for six years, moved at least twice, and were only reported after the 2022 election despite them being “found” beforehand.
So is the standard now that it’s fine for someone to illegally possess classified documents as long as they turn them in when they feel like it? In this case, the timeline ensured minimum political fallout.
To be frank, I don’t buy for a second that this was an accident. A person doesn’t accidentally take classified documents, move them multiple times, and lock them into a closet. This whole “oh, we just found these documents” line is highly suspicious. They “found” them just in time to wipe the slate clean after an election and before Biden announces his 2024, run? Yeah, I bet.
Regardless, it is those on the left who have assured us that intent doesn’t matter in this case.
The receipts are all there, and they are proving rather awkward.
Looking at the simplest explanation given the known facts: badRampant speculation based on wishcasting: good
Got it
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1 minute ago, B-Man said:
We are well aware that the "87,000 figure" in the "Inflation Reduction Act (😂) for the IRS are not all "agents".
In fact, in FY 2021, the IRS used 78,661 full-time equivalent (FTE) positions in conducting its work......https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce
Lets just say when ANY government agency is funded by the Left to DOUBLE it's employees,
It is not a good thing and should be (rightly) questioned.
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This post sponsored by big business, big pharma, the Kochs, Amazon, etc.Starve the IRS so it can only go after the working class. The real problem in this country is that the rich don’t have enough money while the poor have too much!
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1 minute ago, dpberr said:
They've all done it. I'm sure Obama, Bush have some too.
This is what happens when you make those purely emotional decisions, Biden administration.
(Citation needed)
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47 minutes ago, B-Man said:
Back to the thread:
Thanks Joe,
CNN analyst: Let's face it -- the DoJ probably can't charge Trump now over classified documents
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They can, and they should.-
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5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:
Look, there’s a lot, lot of tax cheating going on. Including on things like child tax credits, including tax
returns from middle and lower income people, some of whom happen to be the immigrants decried for getting tax payer funded benefits. I pay my share honestly. I have no problem with a government making sure that other people do too.
Not only that, but a lot of the headcount is to replace people who are leaving and not all of it is for agents either.
But you can always bet on the GOP helping the rich and tax cheats while selling it to a willing public as somehow benefiting them when it actually hurts them. They’ll eat it up anyway.
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1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:
Interesting. I thought IRS tax enforcement funding was not about getting more money from audits and enforcement. It was just for computer upgrades and replacing retired people.
It was primarily about replacing retiring workers and auditing the rich. That’s why the GOP hates it. They want the IRS going after the average American while leaving the donor class untouched.-
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22 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
It is. Because his own lawyers turned them over. 😆
Cooperating with authoritiesNot cooperating with authorities
Trumpers: these are the same thing
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20 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:
We don’t know that facts. We don’t know who had access, who might have reviewed the files, who Biden might have shared the contents with, what safeguards were in place, the security clearances of those with access, whether or not they might have been compromised, and what the portrait of the multi-year journey might look like when painted.
In fact, it’s pure foolishness to speculate that the relative security of Biden’s situation somehow was greater than the Trump scenario. There was apparently no oversight whatsoever for almost 7 years.
It will be interesting to see where this goes but the potential for whitewashing this debacle and burying the story is quite high.
The facts as we have them point to this not being intentional. It’s also being investigated by law enforcement so if the facts change, it might change the most likely story.If it is discovered that Biden knew he had documents illegally and did not immediately turn them over, then he should be indicted when he leaves office. But that is not the most likely scenario given what we know at this point.
Honestly, at this point, I don’t think the facts will end up mattering at all. MAGA is just going to believe whatever feels good because their feelings don’t care about the facts.
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10 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:
It’s impossible to derive what happened from a 3 or 4 page news article, but your steadfast belief in your side of the aisle is impressive.
If what you say is true, then a deep dive into it will simply prove it out. Personally, I cannot square extremely reckless behavior with “nothing to see here.” It’s an awful lot like the release of social security data on political opponents by the 1/6 committee.
I just follow the facts. If Biden did what Trump did, then he should be indicted when he leaves office. But there’s no evidence he did. -
15 minutes ago, B-Man said:
Same thing Trump defenders saidhilarious.
Except it would be exceedingly easy to prove intent with Trump since he refused to return the documents when told to and then lied about returning them all when he actually didn’t. A jury would have no problem inferring intent there.12 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:No, I think I addressed that. It’s possible he was completely clueless on the proper disposition of classified documents, that his attorneys never looked into it, and as a private citizen may be his truth was he could keep whatever he wanted.
Unfortunately, there’s a whole lot of ground to cover between 2016 and 2023. It certainly makes sense to know who had access to these documents, from the guy slugging boxes down the hall to admin assistants to maintenance staff to landlords and beyond.
I’m not suggesting Biden was trafficking in these secret classified documents, but if he’s being candid and truthful about his actions, as they say,there’s nothing to worry about. I’m also not suggesting he wasn’t trafficking in this intel, we simply don’t know.
I also think it’s possible and quite likely that presidents and VPs keep classified documents on a fairly regular basis, and it became an issue for Trump because he was Trump.
The documents were in storage and only discovered because the office was being closed so everything needed to be removed.
I sincerely doubt that presidents and VPs routinely intentionally keep documents they’re not supposed to have. There’s little reason for it since they can access their docs through NARA. It seems more likely that the controls around these types of documents need fixing.
It’s a problem for Trump because he refused to return them. If he had turned them all over when NARA told him to, he’d have no problem with the law. Even if the tinfoil hat conspiracies about the deep state BS were true and he got charged anyway, he’d skate easily at trial (if it even went that far).
As always, Trump’s problem is Trump himself.
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5 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:
I read the facts. Turns out when Biden left office, he took classified documents when he left. He then co-mingled those documents with personal documents, and for reasons as yet unknown, failed to return them as was his responsibility.
Several years then passed, the documents in his possession and accessible by an as-yet-undetermined number of people. Those documents may have been shared with foreign nationals in some quid pro quo, or may have been his ‘get out of jail free’ card in the event the H Biden scandal became an issue. It’s possible of course he was just forgetful and careless, something of a resume booster for dem presidential candidates.
We know that the documents were discovered, as if by magic really, by his attorneys, whom one would assume do not have proper credentials to view said documents, combing through personal paperwork with 5 years of dust on them, just two days before a pivotal midterm election with much riding on the line for Team Biden.
It doesn’t seem all that complicated to me, Chi. Since we now know he played fast and loose with national security, and this story is 15 years in the making, at a minimum a serious inquiry into his record keeping processes (online and paper) since his time in office should take place. What other documents does he have in his possession, and at what location(s)? I think you have to review email, hard drives, investigate acquaintances etc.You certainly cannot rule out incompetence, but malfeasance must also be considered. I would hope the gloves come off on this one.
What an I missing here, Chi?
Intent. You’re missing intent.-
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Just now, JDHillFan said:
Thanks for this bit of brilliance. Who would have thought?
Masterclass in vaguery. 🤦♂️
I literally laid out the fact patterns to answer your question. If you just want to ignore it because it’s inconvenient to you, I guess that’s just on you.
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Just now, JDHillFan said:
Maybe you would be kind enough to enlighten us on what the law is regarding the compartmentalization of classified information. If you don’t mind maybe you could include a discussion of Hillary’s handling of such. Based on your snotty post, I’m sure you have plenty of experience on the matter.
Person A:1. Not a government employee
2. Does not have security clearance
3. Possesses government documents
4. Discovers said documents and notifies authorities
5. Returns documents immediately
Person B:
1. Not a government employee
2. Does not have security clearance
3. Possesses government documents
4. Is told to return documents but refuses
5. Returns some documents
6. Lies and says all documents were returned when they weren’t
7. Continues to refuse to cooperate
Person C :1. Government employee
2. Has security clearance
3. Possesses government documents they are entitled to
4. Improperly stores documents
5. Turns over storage device when asked and ceases improper storage
I don’t think there’s a case out there that matches Person A in which there as an indictment, not to mention a conviction. Generally, if you discover documents you’re not supposed to have and immediately turn them over, they don’t charge you with anything because they want to encourage people in those situations to cooperate.
Person B gets indicted. There are cases where the defendant even had the proper security clearance but was still indicted due to their behavior and lack of cooperation once the documents were discovered.
Person C is an edge case. You could probably put together a prima facie case but you’re almost assuredly going to lose at trial so it’s really not worth the effort. Negligent possession is almost never prosecuted.
Possessing documents you’re not supposed to is bad, especially if they are classified. But people aren’t generally prosecuted unless they either took the documents knowing they weren’t supposed to have them or refuse to cooperate with authorities in returning the documents.Hope that helps!
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1 minute ago, Wacka said:
Just look in the mirror, Chi.
Just read the actual facts instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions. A feat basically impossible for members of this board.
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Just came here expecting to see the usual complete lack of understanding of facts, how things work, and what the law is and I was not disappointed.
Don’t ever change, PPP.
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6 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:
we defaulted a long time ago. there just noone with a big enough boot to evict us yet.
its not suprising the extraction to the top % is in overdrive.
I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you saying the US currently is in default? -
So what are the odds that we default on our debt in the next two years? 90%? More?
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24 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:
The people spoke. We got divided government, based on a razor thin GOP majority in the house.
We now have a speaker who let the most radical elements of his party order off the menu to secure his job.
That doesn't bode well to say the least.
Imagine if we actually hit a recession and need Congress to act swiftly and smartly to save the economy. We’d be screwed-
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It took 15 tries, but Kevin McCarthy was elected Speaker with the support of 49.6% of the members of Congress.
I’m sure such a talented and strong leader as himself will have no problem keeping his supporters together to do work for the good of the American people…
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11 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:
His soul and that of the republican party.
So just his soul then?-
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Well, that should do it. McCarthy poised to win it on the 15th ballot.
Wonder what he gave up to get over the line
Biden, A Good American President, Pilfers Classified Docs
in Politics, Polls, and Pundits
Posted
Hey, let me know when Biden’s team signs an affidavit falsely claiming they returned all the documents when they didn’t.