HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
As far as advantage, I'm hoping someone who knows more than I about meshing the run and the passing game will comment. @HoofHearted? @Buffalo716? I have only the vague idea that zone runs mesh better with operating out of shotgun and pin-and-pull gap runs work better operating under center. But when I say "vague idea" I mean my understanding is definitely in the "look at the choo choo" stage of training.
There's nothing to this. Both schemes can be equally effective out of gun or under center. Like I said I'll start working on breaking down our run game using the All-22 stuff here in a few weeks and make a post about it.
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A lot of questions to work through here so bear with me in regards to the wall of text:
1. There are no formation limitations to running zone vs gap scheme run concepts - both can be run out of any personnel grouping you could possibly imagine.
2. Neither run scheme is tied to a QB being under center.
3. Every team in the NFL runs inside zone. If you want to be any good at running the football you have to be able to incorporate both zone scheme and gap scheme run concepts. Likewise you can't just run wide zone/pin and pull and have no interior run concepts in your playbook - it makes you too one dimensional.
4. I'd have to go back and re-watch the gap to see if the Chiefs made adjustments for the pin and pull stuff in the second half. Can't tell you off-hand if they did anything different. @Big Turk
5. Inside Zone is run best with a bunch of bruisers up front. We don't have those guys. The majority of our line is 310lbs. or under and are decent athletes for big men. Think of a college team like Oklahoma when Cody Ford played for them. They had a bunch of BIG dudes like him that could work on 45 degree angle tracks in unison and get push up front. Oklahoma also coupled their inside zone stuff with heavy doses of true GT (Guard/Tackle) Counter. Keeping defenses off-balance is the big thing and it doesn't feel like we have enough variation with our interior run schemes for defenses to respect anything other than inside zone (Once my season is over I plan on going to the All-22 and doing a full year assessment of our run schemes and do a write-up about it). Inside zone is not a complex concept as far as rules are concerned, but everyone has to be on the same page when defenses start moving up front. The beauty of the concept is that it creates natural cut-back lanes for backs and essentially has three different paths a back could end up taking based on what the defense does. Whereas if you run GT Counter you're back knows you're aiming point pre-snap is playside A gap and it won't change regardless of what the defense does. The flexibility of the scheme to make a defense "wrong" no matter what they do is what makes inside zone so dangerous and why so many teams try to base out of it.
6. Pin & pull has been around for forever. It's not a new concept. Go back and look at all the wing-t stuff that was run way back when and you'll see pin & pull as a staple of those offenses.
7. RPOs are, by design, created to have run action go one way and pass action go the opposite of the run action. That's why they work and why they are so hard to defend. It's very similar in concept to the zone read run scheme where you're basically forcing a defender to be wrong regardless of what he does.
8. The 5 yard outs to Diggs aren't actually RPO's - they're called "gift" routes. It's a pre-snap read where if you're given cushion pre-snap your route converts to whatever your "gift" concept is that week and it's thrown regardless of the called concept. You'll see this a lot on the backside of 3x1 (to the single receiver side).
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16 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
Yep - can't run an RPO if linemen are pulling and others are getting out in front of the play. Either a penalty or they'll crush you at the mesh point.
This is 100% incorrect. People run RPO's all the time off of Power/Counter looks. Shoot we've run em this year.
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16 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:
So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better.
Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive.
So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?
Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?
Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why.
It's still technically Wide Zone - just a different way of blocking it by blocking down to get the edge set and wrapping guys around to lead.
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11 hours ago, Big Turk said:
The scary thing for defenses must be that Allen would have likely panicked earlier in his career and ran into pressure or made a bad throw, now he simply just delivers a strike and moves the chains or dumps it down for 5-10 yards.
Must be super frustrating for DCs to play against him. No matter what you call you are more likely to be wrong than right against him.
I mean I guess that makes sense in regards to the tipped passes, but Allen can't be the only player in the NFL they do this against can he? Other QBs aren't having the same tipped ball issues.
No, there's definitely other mobile QBs who teams actively try to contain within the pocket. The low box technique is what stands out most with how teams are playing Allen specifically. Teams are so afraid to give up easy rush lanes to him that they are essentially just maintaining the pocket and waiting for Allen to make a decision before they work pass rush moves. It worked really well for KC. Baltimore tried to do the same type of thing from what I recall when they were only rushing four as well.
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22 hours ago, Big Turk said:
Allen seems to be having a lot of tipped balls this year from watching the games and looking at the numbers it's significantly more than last year.
He is tied for the league lead with 12 batted balls with Mayfield who has to field questions as to why he was having so many. Granted Allen has 80+ more attempts but still, compared to last year even, it's significantly more.
Herbert led the NFL with 17 last season, Allen had the second most at 16. Currently he is on pace to have 34 which would be an outrageous number.
So I am wondering if there is something that is causing this that anyone has noticed? Is it him getting rid of the balls quicker? The shorter throws he is making more regularly? Bad luck? DLinemen stopping a rush to try and bat the ball down more?
Curious as to if Allen, Dorsey or McD will start getting asked about this if the media notices...
I can't find anything concrete on this but it appears Allen may be on pace to set a new batted balls record. I read an article from late October of 2018 that talked about how Cousins was on pace for 32 that year with the previous record being 23 in 2006. I don't have any final tally on Cousins for that year.
Can't find the final numbers for 2018, but 2019-2021, the highest is Baker with 20 in 2019.
Allen's numbers:
2019: 10
2020: 4
2021: 16
2022: 12(thru 6 games)
Defenses are making a concerted effort this year more than I've seen in years past of ensuring they establish the box. You saw this time and time again this past week with KC, but it's been happening all year long. The contain players (outside rusher) have been purposefully setting a really high box as to not allow Allen the opportunity to escape outside the pocket. These rushers have been rushing more of a contain path (more vertical upfield) than a true pass rush angle would put you in to collapse the pocket. Because of this most teams are making their Low Box players (any interior rusher) an automatic low gear player. Essentially telling those guys to try and push to collapse the interior of the pocket, but not working true pass rush moves until Allen steps up within the pocket. With these interior rushers essentially being read players at this point there are able to have clear line of sight to Allen and put themselves in a more advantageous position to allow them to get hands on low trajectory balls.
There were multiple times in the KC game Allen wanted to get outside the pocket, but because the high box player did such a good job of setting the box Allen could only step back up into the pocket, and was forced to deliver a ball from within it.
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2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:
I dont think its a tough decision either. White and Elam will clearly be our starters when White comes back. Not to take anything away from Benford or even Jackson, but Elam is getting that spot.
What makes you say that?
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3 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:
Elam is going to create some tough decisions when White comes back
Is he though? He's our least refined corner right now out of Dane, Benford, and him imo.
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20 minutes ago, Logic said:
So far I've preferred Dorsey's playcalling to Daboll's.
The one thing I want to see brought back from Daboll's playbook were the jet sweep actions to McKenzie. Even when he didn't actually get the ball, his speed and the threat of it forced defenses to have another thing to account for before the snap. A split second of hesitation by a defender before the ball is snapped can make all the difference.
I have advocated for, and will continue to advocate for, Shakir becoming the primary WR3 and starting slot receiver, and McKenzie returning to his WR4/gadget role.Problem is we don't see a ton of man coverage - that's where you'll see the most adjustment from a defense vs the jet. NFL backers are too good to be fooled by the eye candy of McKenzie.
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20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
No rational disagreement possible. They clearly don't.
But that's not how they market themselves. It's supposed to be neutral, unbiased, performance-based grading by carefully trained observers
And what they say about their graders:
Their assertion is that each grade is reviewed by a group of 12-18 "senior analysts"
They ran out of hungover college kids to do their manual labor for them so they've out-sourced it to India for a while now.
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34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
I see gaps on the offensive side. Ya gotta wonder why Knox isn't higher. He did some Grade A work. Davis should also be up there.
I agree with your puzzlement on Cookie. Milano had a GREAT game where he did his job perfectly. Made key tackles, was in the right place at the right time to help force Johnson's INT
I'm forced to conclude that the PFF graders pretty much don't understand team defense.
PFF graders don't understand football. Those positions are out-sourced.
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31 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:
One of the big concerns about Bills' D in 2020 and 2021 was its inconsistency at stopping the run (2020 home game against the Chiefs, 2021 Jonathan Taylor debacle being a couple of examples). We were not 2021 Chargers bad but very middle of the pack. This year - first in YPG and second in YPA. Tremendous. Don't know if it's Jones being 100% better than Star or DE's that play the run well (Lawson, Rousseau, et al.) or a combination of things but it is great to see. Used to be worried about teams that run the ball well but this year - Jets, Pats, Browns - bring them on!
A defensive line that actually commands double teams which is allowing our linebackers to fly around.
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12 hours ago, billsfan89 said:
Outside of that stupid option call early in the game it was a very well called game for the most part. Dorsey has stepped up well in the absence of Daboll.
This is what bugs me about fans. If it had scored a touchdown I assume everyone would be raving about what a great call it was.
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1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:
That's not the technique in this case. If you wait for Mahomes to escape or let him sit in the pocket you're already beat. Think of it as a delayed rush then, if that helps.
It is though. You see it all game long.
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4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:
He's not supposed to wait for Mahomes to escape. It's a spy-rush or delayed rush. He needed to rush quicker. Right after the snap, the Chiefs LT/LG double Miller (same thing their right side did on the final play) and Milano need to rush through the lane immediately. He has Mahomes dead to rights where he can't escape up the middle and has Groot pushing the RT back. It would at the very least rush Mahomes' throw. Mahomes probably still would've gotten the pass off. The coverage was deeper on this play and then Taron missed the tackle.
Yes, that's the whole point of a Spy. Play low hole coverage until the QB leaves contain or steps up in the pocket then you're an add-on. Mahomes did neither.
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3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:
When they gave up the catch and run to Moore or whoever it was, Milano was spying Mahomes.
Yeah, thought you were talking about the last play to Kelce. The play you're talking about there wasn't much else Milano could do, Mahomes stayed in the pocket so he was just in no man's land waiting for Mahomes to escape.
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2 minutes ago, bobobonators said:
That clearly didn’t work. Last year we had Hill to contend with, too. We knew they’d be going to Kelce yesterday and we still couldn’t stop it. 2 corners on him? Rush 3? Foul him at the LOS and put him on the ground? My personal goal would be for something like this to not happen again.
30 seconds to 1 min is a lot of time and i get a team like KC will probably find a way. But less than 16 sec we need to put up a Zero there on defense.
And this is by no means a negative thread. Im ecstatic about the win. Im just thinking about the future and how the team should approach this scenario bc im sure it’ll come up again.
The reason it didn't work is because of the pre-snap motion. It was initially double coverage between Rousseau and Milano, but the motion out the backfield pulled Milano off the coverage on Kelce and put it on the back. Edmunds was then tasked with picking up the man coverage on Kelce while coming from across the field. Well designed scheme from KC against our man coverage. Allowed them to throw the hot.
I'm with you though - they need to line up whoever their edge rusher is on that side of the field and run through Kelce's face at the LoS to at least throw off some timing.
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2 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:
My thoughts:
When talking about pressure in that situation, I say rush 4. I'm fine with rushing 4 DLs while remaining disciplined OR rushing 3 DL and spy/rush a LB (which the Bills did.) As long as you don't blitz Mahomes. History has proven that doesn't work.
This brings up the LB's dilemma: Milano has to play that perfectly; the spy and the rush, which I don't think he did at the end of the first half, but he played it perfectly at the end of the game.
Next thought: in last season's AFCC the Bengals proved that rushing 3 and adding more DBs works against the Chiefs offense. The Bills did essentially this, but without the DBs. The Bills are able to keep both LBs in because of (at risk of derailing the thread) Tremain Edmunds' coverage skills.
I think the 3 DL rushers with the LB spying/rushing is perfect, it just requires that LB to play with conviction (identify where Mahomes is moving to and then go!)
I was worried about Milano in that first half because he was hesitating, like he was thinking to much. However, he turned it on in the 2nd half with some instinctual plays. I think we saw that reflected in the results at the end of each half, too.
Milano wasn't spying at the end of the first half - he was playing man coverage.
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13 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
I might barely even rush - 2 or 3 safeties deep and man coverage underneath. Have 1 guy spy and 2 guys rush.
This is exactly what they did.
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7 minutes ago, bobobonators said:
Good point. My only consideration for Bass trying to attempt one of those high kicks he normally does to give the ST time to get down there is field position. It could very well pin them back inside the 20 or 15. But you’re right they may fair catch it and you lose trying to shave seconds off the clock.
i suppose the squib kick was the right thing to do. Again I was happy w that choice yesteday. But then we failed to follow through on defense.
Do we double team Kelce everytime next time?
Should we blitz Mahomes and force him to make a play?They did double him. With Tremaine and what looks like Rousseau.
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6 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:
First off the kicker hit a 62 yard field goal, I'd venture to say most of the time that's not going to happen.
In terms of the squib kick, I think it was the right call. The missed tackle of McKinnon in bounds was a major blunder by the players not the coaching staff. The pass play to Kelce just kills me as one would think we would do everything to stop him from getting it but alas he did. I was upset in the moment since all the joy/momentum we gained for getting the Gabe Davis seemed lost but in retrospect we did stop them but their kicker made a great kick.
Credit KC for a good scheme against our man coverage knowing we'd have to bump defenders with their motion to allow the hot to be thrown to Kelce.
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Bad angle by Taron on the first play to McKinnon. Should have been tackled at the 37ish with about 7 seconds left.
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4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
Sure, but isn't that how that particular delayed blitz play is designed? I'm sure there's a correct term for this sort of blitz, which I don't know.
What I see is that at the snap, 39 (Fitzpatrick) and 51 (Myles Jack) are both in position to defend the run, pick up the back in pass defense if he releases, or blitz. If Singletary releases to Jack's side, Fitzpatrick can blitz. If he releases to Fitzpatrick's side, Jack can blitz.
We keep both the TE and the back in to protect, so we theoretically have a "hat on a hat" except that Saffold moves on.
I mean, the play worked, so I dunno as a fan how worthwhile it is second-guessing it, I just have the fundamental sense the protections didn't work they way they should have. I understand your explanation of the slide protection and who is responsible for what gap, I just have the "something not right here" feels.
It's just called an add-on.
🤷♂️ Don't know what else to tell ya here.
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Just now, Beck Water said:
I think by "he" here you mean Singletary, who took a gap in pass protection? I agree, but the beer offer still stands - once Fitzpatrick reads it's a pass play, I bet the film would show he almost always blitzes.
Oh well, he was late to the fair so no harms. But I do think something is going on with Saffold and the line.
Depends on what the back does. If Singletary had released to his side he would have manned him.
Zone run vs Pin and Pull
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
You can run outside zone from under center, in gun, or in pistol. The stretch path is taught when running it from under center or out of pistol. When in gun the back is even to slightly in front of the QB with his alignment and can hit it running horizontally immediately. Not sure what expert you were listening to, but maybe you misunderstood or they're misunderstood?